CPPT: Females required when cadet females present?

[Stonewall]

CAPR 52-10 (14 Mar 08) States:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

It does NOT say a female senior member.  Is there something else I'm missing here?

I was CC'd on an email from C/CC to CC in regards to an FTX being planned that said "I understand that a female senior member mustbe present if female cadets are staying overnight..."

I remember pulling 52-10 out at more than one overnight FTX where some over zealous reg hound tried to pull that one on me throughout the years.  That's why I kept the CPPT regulation in my ES kit.

[RiverAux]

Not required by National, but I have heard of both official and unofficial policies to that effect in some wings and squadrons. 

[jeders]

Just another CAP myth that just won't die. Although it doesn't exactly hurt to have a female senior member present.

[Stonewall]

Just another CAP myth that just won't die. Although it doesn't exactly hurt to have a female senior member present.

I agree 100%.  That's why it was cool to have my wife in CAP for a few years.  She's considering joining again, but we've got two ankle biters so I'd rather she not join right now (don't tell her that).

I looked on the wing website for supplements to no avail.  So as far as I can tell, the myth lives within my squadron.

[JoeTomasone]

Just another CAP myth that just won't die. Although it doesn't exactly hurt to have a female senior member present.

I'd go so far as to say that it's a very good idea -- although, as pointed out, there is no requirement.

[Pingree1492]

Again, this depends on where you are.   RMR has an official policy letter stating that there must be at least one senior of each gender present if there are mixed gender cadets at an overnight activity.

[Stonewall]

Again, this depends on where you are.   

Well, I checked my wing and region's supplements for CPPT so unless they just aren't available online but exist in in hard copy, we should go with the NHQ CAPR 52-10.

I personally disagree with this policy as it severely limits female cadets from participating.  I wonder if in RMR there was a female cadet and two male seniors, but one was her parent, if that would be an acception to the rule.  If it doesn't state that it is accepted, then a father would be in violation of being at an activity with his daughter.

[jeders]

Just another CAP myth that just won't die. Although it doesn't exactly hurt to have a female senior member present.

I'd go so far as to say that it's a very good idea -- although, as pointed out, there is no requirement.

Not saying it's not a very good idea. Anything you can do to help protect yourself as well as the cadets is always good when it comes to this type of thing. It's even better when you have an activity longer than just a few days and you have a female their to help female cadets handle any potentially embarrassing personal issues.

The only part I don't like about it is that it shows that people aren't actually reading the regs. They just keep perpetuating myths that, with the exception of RMR, have little or no grounding in actual written regs.

Just another CAP myth that just won't die. Although it doesn't exactly hurt to have a female senior member present.

I agree 100%.  That's why it was cool to have my wife in CAP for a few years.  She's considering joining again, but we've got two ankle biters so I'd rather she not join right now (don't tell her that).

I wish I could get my fiancee to rejoin for this reason too, but she's not particularly interested right now.

[EMT-83]

Our squadron policy requires a female member at overnight activities. Fortunately, we have enough female senior members (plus a female Cadet Sponsor Member), so this isn't really a problem.

Additionally, we prohibit one-on-one contact between male and female cadets at squadron activities. If someone walks out of a room, it's just second nature to notice if there's only two people left. Maybe it's overkill, but the parents of our female cadets are totally comfortable leaving their daughters in our care.

[Timbo]

Over protection can scare away the female cadets also.  I was in a SQD that prohibited female involvement on FTX and overnight activities, because unfortunately we did not have a Female Senior Member, and we were forced to follow a leader who was way overprotective of himself.

I say Stonewall......call the Wing and find out the "for-sure".   

[Stonewall]

I have been in CAP almost 22 years, 17 as a senior member.  I have always had female cadets in my squadrons and have never had to make a conscious effort to "keep my eye" on anyone, follow cadets out the door, think about who is where.  

I can't say that about an encampment or two, but those weren't my projects.  If they were, I would have set clear and concise rules that wouldn't leave room for speculation or error.  Once the standard is set, everyone can be held accountable.  

With good leadership and a clear understanding of the policy we don't have to live in fear of lawsuits.  99% of it is common sense.  In fact, when "camping" in the field, we've never really set any sort of standard distance between tents.  Usually nature takes its course and the female cadets set up in their own area.

[JoeTomasone]

Over protection can scare away the female cadets also.  I was in a SQD that prohibited female involvement on FTX and overnight activities, because unfortunately we did not have a Female Senior Member, and we were forced to follow a leader who was way overprotective of himself.

I say Stonewall......call the Wing and find out the "for-sure".   

AFAIK, there is no such requirement in SER/FLWG.   I have been on several overnight activities with cadets and it has never even come up.  

I agree with Stonewall - be conscious and aware but not paranoid.    You don't want to make cadets of the opposite sex uneasy around you (or worse), but you also don't want them thinking that you are ignoring or don't care about them.

I treat cadets of both sexes equally and have never had a serious issue.

[Stonewall]

I treat cadets of both sexes equally and have never had a serious issue.

That is the key to success.  I just wish this is how it was in the military....(another discussion for another forum)

[tjaxe]

Wow... girls who cannot do what their "brothers" can do because of no female adult?  One of each gender adult accompanying cadets?  What a sad state of affairs.  I grant that we have to protect everyone involved but if we're not careful we might just "regulate" ourselves out of existence.

Timbo's info - "I was in a SQD that prohibited female involvement on FTX and overnight activities, because unfortunately we did not have a Female Senior Member" -- scares the hell out of me.  If we start insisting on one male and one female senior for overnights it's the female cadets who will lose out in squadrons made up mostly of male seniors.  Really... is that protection... or discrimination?  

[Timbo]

Wow... girls who cannot do what their "brothers" can do because of no female adult?  One of each gender adult accompanying cadets?  What a sad state of affairs.  I grant that we have to protect everyone involved but if we're not careful we might just "regulate" ourselves out of existence.

Timbo's info - "I was in a SQD that prohibited female involvement on FTX and overnight activities, because unfortunately we did not have a Female Senior Member" -- scares the hell out of me.  If we start insisting on one male and one female senior for overnights it's the female cadets who will lose out in squadrons made up mostly of male seniors.  Really... is that protection... or discrimination?  

It is absolute Discrimination.  Unfortunately, I was a Cadet at the time, and had no input on the issue.  I will say that when this issue does come up in units or Wings I have been in since becoming a Senior, I have contested it.  My contention is that child predators come in all shapes, all sizes and all genders, not just men.   

[Eclipse]

Some things are R-E-G, and some things are C-Y-A.  At all times you'd like the two to be at least equal, but when C-Y-A gets in the way of operations, sometimes you have to drop to R-E-G and just be more vigilant.

Barring females from participation based on the gender of the seniors is not kosher, or good for the corps.

Its bad enough as it is that most encampments have to seperate quarters based on gender, which always makes it difficult for the female cadets to really integrate into a flight.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons that the senior / cadet barrier has to be maintained at all times.  Barring a few legit predators, the above is where I see the most problems - seniors who are too chummy with the cadets and many times blur the lines during these activities, especially with recent converts and older cadets.

[EMT-83]

Once the standard is set, everyone can be held accountable. With good leadership and a clear understanding of the policy we don't have to live in fear of lawsuits.

Actually, that's the idea. We don't follow the cadets around, or "keep an eye" on them at every moment. It's just understood by everyone what that standard is, and it's not a big deal. Everyone knows that seniors can't be alone with cadets, male or female, except as permitted by regulation. You just follow the standard without giving it any more attention than it deserves.

My contention is that child predators come in all shapes, all sizes and all genders, not just men.

Two news stories today - another teacher arrested for sexual assault, and another cop arrested for child porn. It's a crazy world out there, and I want to be able to tell the mother of a 12 year old girl (or boy) that we've given some serious thought to keeping her child safe.

[JoeTomasone]

My contention is that child predators come in all shapes, all sizes and all genders, not just men.   

Amen.  We need to remember:

1.  The recent rise in FEMALE teachers arrested for molesting students of BOTH sexes

2.  Not everyone is heterosexual

If you require a female SM to stay with the female cadets because of some policy and then you learn that the SM is a lesbian, what now?   Homosexuality is not a valid reason to deny/terminate membership.   So now do we have to keep track of who is what orientation to ensure that we don't put the wrong SMs with the wrong cadets?   What about bisexual members?  

This is why I like the way 52-10 is written.   Two SMs at overnight activities -- no mention of gender, orientation, nothing -- just a requirement to keep SM/Cadet relationships PROFESSIONAL.

The reality is that we need to do what we can to ensure the safety of all members - but nothing is 100% effective -- as the post above illustrates.   

[IceNine]

Small side note.

I was at an awards banquet recently and after the smoke had cleared I was talking with one of the female cadets trying to badger her into applying for encampment.  And I could tell something was bothering her so I asked.

Her response was highly unexpected and while I had noticed I never would have taken a second look.

She said when the Senator and the seniors were taking the pictures with me after I got my award they stood at ease while with the guys they put their hand on their shoulders.  It made me feel uncomfortable.

I've heard similar statements from female cadets about specifically not wanting special precautions or exemptions.  I had one female cadet go so far to say she didn't think it was fair that she didn't have to run as fast or do as many push ups as males of similar standing.

There is always the matter of CYA but after we have attempted to do that and failed I see more fault in denying females the right to attend than I do letting them attend and simply not having female adult guidance.

[Eclipse]

Everyone knows that seniors can't be alone with cadets, male or female, except as permitted by regulation. You just follow the standard without giving it any more attention than it deserves.

Cite, please.

Hint: Another wives tale - the above is not addressed on any level in the regs.