Cadets Involvement in SAR

[Five-seveN]

Hey Airman, right but like a typical noob, u put " NOTHING"  and didnt think about how smart some of us SAR master are, lol, Fool, you obviouslyhavent seen 5 miles of what was a town in ruin, well maby on your lil tv on CNN ( Comunist Net work"and i guess you dont have a V on your DR award, i thought i was talkin to some one with some actual SAR Exp. and btw buddy there isnt over 13 ES ratings lol u fool more like 3, and 3 more for GT ratings, lol get your story right Airman.

[usafsf]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

Lets see, I highly doubt that you are a "CPL" in the army, for multiple reasons, and making a false official statement is punishable by the UCMJ, as well as pretending to be of a rank that your not. If in fact you went through these schools, and a in the Army, as you say, then you again are not following the REGS set by CAP because if you join the United States Military, you are forced to become a Senior Member. I'm sure you have heard of Levenworth, correct? If you have gone through training like you have said, then you most certainly should know that, by making a false statement such as the one that you just have made, you can easily go there. The fact that you fall under Article 31 Rights if you are in the military, means that no matter, on duty, off duty, in civies, or in uniform, on aircraft, or on ships, the UCMJ applies to you, and you will be caught for your lies.

[usafsf]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

Lets see, I highly doubt that you are a "CPL" in the army, for multiple reasons, and making a false official statement is punishable by the UCMJ, as well as pretending to be of a rank that your not. If in fact you went through these schools, and a in the Army, as you say, then you again are not following the REGS set by CAP because if you join the United States Military, you are forced to become a Senior Member. I'm sure you have heard of Levenworth, correct? If you have gone through training like you have said, then you most certainly should know that, by making a false statement such as the one that you just have made, you can easily go there. The fact that you fall under Article 31 Rights if you are in the military, means that no matter, on duty, off duty, in civies, or in uniform, on aircraft, or on ships, the UCMJ applies to you, and you will be caught for your lies.

oh really dude? there arent well lets see my ES card states...
GTM2 
GTM1   
CUL 
GTL
MRO
MS
UDF
GTM3 
GES 
SET 
LSC   
FASC   
GBD   
IO   
MSO   
LO

[Five-seveN]

Mr Global Mod, i have no attitude, im just proving a simply point about ES and AE, nothing more nothing less, and you did have some good points there in your last post, now what my Lt is doin with this Cpl, i have no idea lol, i hope he has a story ready.  

thanks

[Pace]

Good afternoon.  Recently, I have just viewed this thread, and I am disgusted.  My Cadet Commander and I, I'm the Deputy Commander, are both Cadets, YES Cadets.  We are extensively trained in the field of ES.  I am qualified in GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET, and EMT-P.  He is qualified in GBD, GTL, GTM-1, GES, SET.  I went to Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and he went to Rhode Island Ground Search and Rescue.

And people wonder why Hawk gets such a bad rap...  BTW, we senior citizens (21 - Crypt Keeper) typically have more training and perspective than uber gung-ho cadets.  Maturity has a great deal to do with it, but experience is the major reason.  I'm not going to sit here and claim my ES skills are necessarily better than yours, but I am positive that my training is much broader and experiences (training and actual) are more diverse.  I received most of my on-the-ground type training as a cadet.  Guess who trained me.  That's right, a SM.  In fact, the SMs I trained with were just as motivated as the cadets, if not moreso.  With the exception of some of my GBD experience, all of my mission staff level training and involvement has been done as a SM.  When I crossed over, I didn't become less motivated.  On the contrary, a hole slew of doors opened up to me as a SM, so I was able to start training even more in higher level ratings.  If you asked a cadet what I was doing, they would tell you I'm sitting in a building writing stuff down, lounging around, talking on the radio, etc.  That couldn't be farther from the truth, but most cadets don't see the involvement that goes into mission staff and aircrew.  Whether you like it or not, without SMs there would be no ES in CAP.

In addition, I am a Firefighter.  Last year we both saw the first live mission ever.  At 0700 hrs, we got a call for a ELT search, and departed to the airport to see if maybe an aircraft had a dead battery and such.  We did not have luck, and set out into the rural area to search.  After an hour of searching, we got a call from AFRCC stating the mission had turned 911T or "REDCAP".  There was an overdue Robinson Helicopter that was going from PA to RI, and they lost contact with it near our are at 1000 ft, it did three 360 turns, and lost contact.  Make a long story short, we found the site after hours of trading throught mud, prickers, looking after Senior Members who were lost, didn't know what they were doing etc.  We went in, shut the device off, and assesed the damage.  Pilot was DOA-impact, and the passenger was DOA-had tried to live by crawling out.

Although that was probably a good experience builder, it was far from being the first ever live mission.  BTW, in my experience, ignorant cadets get lost just as frequently as ignorant SMs.

We took care of the problem, quickly and efficiently.  We did the job of a Senior?  No way?  Are Cadets REALLY that good??!!  We must be.

Mature cadets have the potential to be just as good as low-time SMs.  However, if there's someone who has been on countless missions and has the sorties/finds to prove it, I seriously doubt you're as good as they are.  Their maturity alone over your hot-headed temper makes them better suited to lead a SAR team.  Your "bust-in and save the day" heroic attitude is very likely to get someone injured.

Cadets have every right and responsibility to be on an ES Team

Cadets have no "right" to participate in an optional program element.  The do, however, have every responsibility to progress through the cadet program and learn the values and skills it teaches.  This is why I despise dealing with most cadet officers (even as a C/Lt Col I felt like this).  Your head over-inflates and you think you're God's gift to CAP.  You're not.  In fact, right now you're being a huge thorn.

They are interested in learning how to do ES Operations, how to survive in the woods, etc.  Not because it's "fun", but because it's applicable to their lives.

The first comment is very true in many cases.  Second comment, not so much.  I've found most cadets do CAP ES because it's fun.  In fact, besides pilots looking to build flight time, most people do CAP ES because it's fun.  Applicable to their lives?  Please...

your training, AS A CADET, will determine your survival or your sudden demise.

(I'm tearing up after that one...rofl)

We put our cadets through "hell traning".  Why do we do this?  We do this so they are physically prepared, and definitely prepared mentally for any situation, REGARDLESS of age.

I think C/Maj Horn covered that pretty well.

After our training, cadets put seniors to shame, as they should.

Possibly, but with your attitude doubtful.

Seniors can stay in their vehicles while cadets perform acts of bravery and courage.  Cadets have been, and always will be leaders of ES.  This is not because of regulation, but of reality, and it's time to face it.  Cadets do the job seniors can't, thus why we call them seniors, shortened for senior citizens.  Cadet are ready, willing  and able bodies, ALL the time.

Bravery and courage?  To walk out to a hanger with the DF gear and say "It's coming from over there"?  If there is ever a courage factor to it as you exaggerate, there's probably a gross negligence of ORM.  If you were doing dangerous "brave" things, I would ground your ass and pull every rating the echelon commander would let me pull.  I think it's time YOU smelled the coffee.  Cadets I've encountered are prone to physical ailments as well.  Not as likely, but still likely.  BTW, if you really want to know the truth, cadets do the jobs that most SMs don't want to do.  It's not a matter of not being able to do the jobs, it's a matter of they don't want to do them.  It doesn't help the situation any when there are cocky cadets like you involved.
And as for leading the way, why don't you lead the way in leadership as you're supposed (read: required) to do anyway through the CP.  Start by being respectful, not arrogant.

The understand the danger, but do it for their community, state and nation.

*Raises arm* I'm saving the watch.  Most cadets don't understand the inherent danger involved with activities.  NHQ realizes this.  It's reflected by the fact that cadets are NEVER allowed at any CAP activity without SM supervision.

Cadets do ES, because you "Flyboys" are too scared and wimpy to walk through woods and see actual devastation face to face.  Cadets aren't afraid.  They know the danger, and accept it for what it is, because they believe in what's right.

We "Flyboys" are an integral part of CAP ES.  Here's the funny part:  We can do your job with a little extra training.  It's highly unlikely at your age that you can do ours.

As we go evermore into this generation, CAP is being tasked more and more with ES, HLS, etc.  The better we train our cadets to do these jobs, the more our nation will thrive from Civil Air Patrol's ES Capabilities, to keep them safe and protected, with cadets on the frontlines.

Ground ES hasn't expanded.  If anything, it's fewer and farther between due to better technology and accident avoidance.  The only ground HLS missions I'm aware of are taking pictures of bridges and factories.  Real heroic...  More like real boring, but nonetheless important to some government agency.

And it's C/2d Lt   ...so much for attention to detail and reading regs, huh?


[admin edit: fixed quote tags, I think]

[whatevah]

he claimed to be a C/Col in another thread... might want to look into that, as well?

[Cmdbuddy]

he claimed to be a C/Col in another thread... might want to look into that, as well?

It's a negative on that, as well.  Checked the Spaatz Master List, which was updated today.

[Five-seveN]

LOL! ok dude, all comms stuff is a Comms rating not ES, SET isnt a rating,

ok for the people that know nothing about ES and ratings.

                                    Lesson 1:
                              Rating Vs Quals

GTM 3,2,1- quals
GTL-qual
GBD-qual
and all of the kool things that u put above your CAP tape

OK so NOW we are all set on that.

ratings, i can say i have 5 rating test completes

ES Tech,Senior, Master
Comm, Tech and senior.


now you know thats Ratings and Quals are

thanks

[Pace]

OK Josh, you want to start?  I don't.  I will say this, an AIC in the USAF is nothing.  You're training was so easy compared to the US Army training I went through.  Ft Benning-OSUT- 17 weeks, 11B(Infantry).  Then to Army Airborne School(AAS).  You think you'll make me cry, you wish.  I'm a CPL in the USA.  Just let it go, you're not worth it.  If you think I'm cocky, whatever you think.  If I am, great, what are you goign to do about it, I have every right to.  Go abck to your home or base, and have Prime Rib for dinner, while I stand up for freedom with a full mind and body.

CPL B. Mailloux, USA
82nd Airborne

Where's Master Guns when you need him?

[usafsf]

son, how long have you been in CAP? one year?...2 years?....

[whatevah]

Admin warning...

start getting your stories straight and your posts NOT spouting off stuff that doesn't jive with the regulations (and a few laws), or I'll have to lock this thread.

[Five-seveN]

LOl son? ok first im 20, 21 in 8 months.  try more like 5 years man thanks

[Five-seveN]

to the mods, sry for the attitude of my Lt, i will speek to him directly, and if there was any tone in my words, i apologize, not cuz there is a UNID warning floating around cuz its pointless to get kicked from a CAP Post.

thanks

[usafsf]

hmm so you completed all of the CAPP213 for the master rating of ES huh?...youv also attended the inland sar school by the USCG and AFRCC? and are currently the wing or region ESO? i doubt all of that

[Horn229]

Thanks for the reply!  Anxious to tear you apart now!  If you want to tear apart, don't read into it.  There wasn't ONLY 2 Cadets, there was about 25, and one senior in the back, and who wasn't GTL qualified, to satisfy requirements.  I was speaking from terms of those who were in charge on the mission, not the actual people.

If you say ES is optional to cadets, it is to Seniors as well.  Every program supports each other, they all relate in one way or another, including CP-ES.  Why is this?  Because CP can help cadets become responsible, learn values, integrity, etc, as needed on a mission.  No one ever said ES was required, it is optional, but cadets tend to do a better job at it.

Go re-read the CAPR 52-16 (the reg that governs the CADET PROGRAM) and you tell me where ES falls into the CP mission.

Seniors could say that, but if the cadet is qualified, they DO have every right to be there.  In in the case I'm talking about, the SM just drives.  Seniors think they rule the world, and they have all this power, in actuality, they don't.  That's why we have an IG.

pacemaker covered this.

I wasn't talking about missions on an everday basis.  I'm talking about cadets personal lives.  There are those who do outdoors activities, hunting, fishing, hiking, etc.  They LIKE ES, because the training they receive can help them in the everday "real world", whereas, AE, can't help them ever.

Let me guess, you are a Cadet, amybe Cadet turned Senior?  Have you ever been in the military?  Let me know if you have.  We don't haze our cadets, EVER.  What we do though, is prepare them for the challenges that lie ahead.  If they want to be a part of our ground team, they work at it.  It's not easy, we test and test, until they get it right perfectly, so they have less of a chance of making that mistake in the field.  We want cadets who are ready physically and mentally, not those who are "softies" and/or went to NESA.  We have stopped cadets from going to NESA, permanently.  In our squadron, we can do as we like, not take instruction from a push over such as yourself.

I wold much rather lead a GT of NESA grad's who know CAP ES, and know it well. Unlike you, NESA grad's don't walk away from the school acting all high and mighty. If you think my style (a CAP style) of ES is "soft" so be it, but this is a REAL CAP type of ES. This "we'll tromp through the woods for as long as it takes no matter what the cost may be to find the wreck" is incredibly unrealistic. Do the math, by the time a CAP GT is on the spot, the pilot will have been dead for hours, if not days.

I'll tell you what's courageous, risking our lives for other people, and our own team.  I have stories, but you seem to be too thickheaded to listen to our point of view.

If you are a real GTL you would NEVER EVER put your team in a situation where they would be risking their lives. I'm to thickheaded? No I'm not, I'm more than open to listening to you're point of view, just drop that high and mighty cocky attitude of yours and I will listen to whatever you have to say.

If you think I've crossed the line, fine.  Do you really think I care?  You opinion dosen't tell me what to do.

No, but you're losing point on your respect-o-meter every time you categorize Senior Members as Senior Citizens.

In conclusion, our squadron can take any squadron on in an ES FTX.  We have the most qualified people around, including those who commanded regional GSAR schools.  Before you think you're the best, and let me guess, you went to NESA?  If you did, it REALLY shows.  A bunch of "softies".  We're not here to argue, but show you, cadets are the backbone of ES, and SHOULD NOT be treated differently if they know there material, and are physically and mentally prepared.  We have that in our squadron, and we're PROUD!

I'd say you're full of it, but that's just me. If you really want to debate a NESA vs. Hawk thing, then start a new thread. But I will say this once more, no CAP school can prepare anyone for the sight of a dead body.

Oh, and I am a cadet, look at my signature beneath the post, and when you say "hell training" that sets off red flags for realistic people, to think Hazing/CPP violations.

[Pace]

LOL! ok dude, all comms stuff is a Comms rating not ES, SET isnt a rating,

That's "ok Sir" to you, Cadet.  You and your other buddy have stepped over the line with disrespect just a little too much today.

ok for the people that know nothing about ES and ratings.

...which from reading your post includes you.

                                    Lesson 1:
                              Rating Vs Quals

GTM 3,2,1- quals
GTL-qual
GBD-qual
and all of the kool things that u put above your CAP tape

OK so NOW we are all set on that.

ratings, i can say i have 5 rating test completes

ES Tech,Senior, Master
Comm, Tech and senior.


now you know thats Ratings and Quals are

thanks

Those ratings you're referring to are Senior Member Professional Development ratings.  Cadets cannot earn the ratings as a cadet.  You can meet the requirements and wear the badges for ES (Technician) and Comms (Tech, Senior, and Master).  Again, you can't actually earn the rating until you're a SM.  BTW, the only ES test for the PD rating is a correspondence test.  The Comms tests are on-line, but I just did a check and not only have you not taken all three, but you failed the two (Technician and Senior) tests you did take.

As for MRO and CUL, they are indeed ES ratings.  Check you're 101 card for a list of ratings.  Better yet, check the regulations that you keep saying you know so much better (CAPR 60-3, in case you need it).

Just stop now before you make the hole any deeper.

[Five-seveN]

Actly only seniors can only go the inland School, and i said i did the tests, Attention to detail Airman, remember cadets can take the tests, but the Other requirements cant be met by cadets,lol... i cant believe youd think a person that has been involved in SAR as long as my self wouldnt know that, thats basic stuff, any Noob would know what.

thanks

[usafsf]

you rock pacemaker *wink*

[whatevah]

as much as I'm wondering what a "UNID warning" is, I'm locking this thread. Sadly, Hawk Mtn grads are continuing the tradition of a serious attitude and superiority complex.  I know there are some cool grads (I know them), but people only remember the bad apples.

[Pylon]

I'd like to briefly add to the comments already made by our mod and admin team (who made an excellent effort to guide this legitimate discussion into being productive and civil).

CAPTalk has always prided itself on its ability to host wide ranging discussions, of interest to both cadets and seniors, while always maintaining a professional and courteous demeanor.  We can easily disagree with the viewpoints of others, and make counterpoints, without being disrespectful nor unprofessional.

CAPTalk will continue to do this, as well.  As members of Civil Air Patrol, we are professionals and we will act like professionals both in and out of uniform.  So far, I have seen a great deal of professionalism exhibited since we opened, with the exception of this one thread.  I won't have it again.  Thank you for playing.

...and thank you to the members of CAPTalk who have upheld our professional image.