Hawk Mountain Ranger

[Eclipse]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

First off, there is no such thing as a "CAP Ranger" - call yourselves whatever you like, but that is a fact.

Second, if PEN-CAP's performance in Mississippi (staffed by a bunch of mostly "rangers"), is any indication of how well Hawk is preparing CAP people for duty, go to NESA.

At least at NESA, no one will encourage you to wear your hat like it got stuck in the dryer.

And Cadet Mailloux, or anyone else from PEN-CAP who is flicking their bic for a flame war, take this to heart.

I was there.

I have the photos and AAR's to back up 100% of what I will say.

My guess is you'll have to call your Wing Commander for permission to respond anyway.

[JaL5597]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

First off, there is no such thing as a "CAP Ranger" - call yourselves whatever you like, but that is a fact.

Second, if PEN-CAP's performance in Mississippi (staffed by a bunch of mostly "rangers"), is any indication of how well Hawk is preparing CAP people for duty, go to NESA.

At least at NESA, no one will encourage you to wear your hat like it got stuck in the dryer.

And Cadet Mailloux, or anyone else from PEN-CAP who is flicking their bic for a flame war, take this to heart.

I was there.

I have the photos and AAR's to back up 100% of what I will say.

My guess is you'll have to call your Wing Commander for permission to respond anyway.

Captain all we can do is learn from what happened down south.  Instead of telling us you were there all the time, how about sharing some of that information and experiences?

As for the cadet, well people at the appropriate wing hq already know what he has been up to. 

[SarDragon]

I did some investigating on these two clowns cadets from Connecticut and it appears that much of their squadron (at least according to the website) approaches having the same kind of attitude. I saw things like Danielson Strike Team (their ES presence) and required memorization of the 12 General Orders of the Sentry. This thread on their cadet forum is interesting. YMMV.

[JaL5597]

I did some investigating on these two clowns cadets from Connecticut and it appears that much of their squadron (at least according to the website) approaches having the same kind of attitude. I saw things like Danielson Strike Team (their ES presence) and required memorization of the 12 General Orders of the Sentry. This thread on their cadet forum is interesting. YMMV.

I just hope that everyone does not believe that those 2 represent the cadets of Connecticut.

I know I have not made people think I am the best example of being a senior member but I have done that without anything designed to reflect poorly on my wing.

The actions and conduct of these two cadets have been noted and forwarded to the Connecticut Wing Director of Cadet Programs.  I have not heard back from him yet on this matter, and expect to within the next few days.

Once again I do ask that people realize that those two do not accuratly reflect the members of Connecticut Wing.

2d Lt Joshua Leslie
Assistant Director of Cadet Programs
Historian
CTWG HQ
Unassigned Senior Member
103rd Composite Squadron

[Eclipse]

Captain all we can do is learn from what happened down south.  Instead of telling us you were there all the time, how about sharing some of that information and experiences?

As for the cadet, well people at the appropriate wing hq already know what he has been up to. 
[/quote]

You're right, of course.  Its getting old.  I am dying to publish a complete narrative - regardless of anything else its certainly the coolest ES thing I've ever done, but my reticence has been that while there were pockets of success, as an organization we didn't exactly shine.

Our activity down there exposed some of the most serious (and member-known) problems in our organization, and a lot of people, and even whole groups look pretty bad.

To make things worse, a lot of CC's and others in "power" resent the fact that this exposure has (finally) shown them for the hollow uniforms they are, and done so in a way which cannot be swept under the rug.  (I know, big surprise)

So many of us, upon return, not only didn't get a thank you (which would have been nice, but not required) but were actually knocked back for things which were way above our "pay grade", or simply not part of our mission.

Also, since at a minimum many of the stories would involve statements which could be considered insulting at the minimum, libelous without substantiation, and even involve possible accusations of criminal activity, we have to be VERY careful how things are said and framed.

Which is a long way of saying "I wish I could, and will as soon as we have a little more distance".

Sorry to sound so "cloak and dagger".

Believe me there are any number of CAP leaders across this country chomping to tell their war stories.  A good place to start is with the press releases and blogs - there appears to be an inverse relationship between the number of press releases and stories vs. the actual success in the mission.

I'm also of two minds on this - even for those of us who have a perception of success down there,
much of it was because of circumstance and the fact that we went down to listen and follow orders.  Bare minimum competence appears to be the bar in much of the country, and "Do what you are told" (TASK # STFU001) ought to be taught before GES.

Those units that had "issues" had their lives made even more difficult by the fact that command and control across the board, CAP and otherwise, was muddled at best by both circumstance and the logistical nightmare of working in a disaster area.

Whenever I think about writing stuff, I think about my reaction to "Band of Brothers".
Even Herbert Sobel had relatives.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capt._Herbert_Sobel

[JaL5597]

You're right, of course.  Its getting old.  I am dying to publish a complete narrative - regardless of anything else its certainly the coolest ES thing I've ever done, but my reticence has been that while there were pockets of success, as an organization we didn't exactly shine.

Our activity down there exposed some of the most serious (and member-known) problems in our organization, and a lot of people, and even whole groups look pretty bad.

To make things worse, a lot of CC's and others in "power" resent the fact that this exposure has (finally) shown them for the hollow uniforms they are, and done so in a way which cannot be swept under the rug.  (I know, big surprise)

So many of us, upon return, not only didn't get a thank you (which would have been nice, but not required) but were actually knocked back for things which were way above our "pay grade", or simply not part of our mission.

Also, since at a minimum many of the stories would involve statements which could be considered insulting at the minimum, libelous without substantiation, and even involve possible accusations of criminal activity, we have to be VERY careful how things are said and framed.

Which is a long way of saying "I wish I could, and will as soon as we have a little more distance".

Sorry to sound so "cloak and dagger".

Believe me there are any number of CAP leaders across this country chomping to tell their war stories.  A good place to start is with the press releases and blogs - there appears to be an inverse relationship between the number of press releases and stories vs. the actual success in the mission.

I'm also of two minds on this - even for those of us who have a perception of success down there,
much of it was because of circumstance and the fact that we went down to listen and follow orders.  Bare minimum competence appears to be the bar in much of the country, and "Do what you are told" (TASK # STFU001) ought to be taught before GES.

Those units that had "issues" had their lives made even more difficult by the fact that command and control across the board, CAP and otherwise, was muddled at best by both circumstance and the logistical nightmare of working in a disaster area.

Whenever I think about writing stuff, I think about my reaction to "Band of Brothers".
Even Herbert Sobel had relatives.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capt._Herbert_Sobel

While you are right there is also the simple fact that history must be recorded, both the good and bad.  I think its better to have those who were there with the first hand knowlage to be the ones to write the history without the gauze of being politically correct or anything like that.

While I haven't read it yet I did see that you posted a link.   

Thank you Sir.

[Eclipse]

Start here:

I'll start taking questions after you read it.

http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2005/12/katrina_the_aar.html

[Matt]

I did some investigating on these two clowns cadets from Connecticut and it appears that much of their squadron (at least according to the website) approaches having the same kind of attitude. I saw things like Danielson Strike Team (their ES presence) and required memorization of the 12 General Orders of the Sentry. This thread on their cadet forum is interesting. YMMV.

*Cringes*  It's like they think that Cadet GTMs have the equivalency to ES Gods... I know of only a handful of the ES Gurus around here, but they're almost all (SM)  Lt Cols and have been in since they were wee little ones, with the exceptions of few.

If I ever, ever bury my head that far...  I hope someone takes me off my high horse right, quick, and in a hurry.

[Schmidty06]

I checked out the Danielson Cadet Squadron website that was linked above.  I don't know where they got some of their ideas, but its all jacked up in there.

[Pace]

I checked out the Danielson Cadet Squadron website that was linked above.  I don't know where they got some of their ideas, but its all jacked up in there.

Take a closer look.  From what I saw, it was only the cadets.  Unless I missed something, the senior members are pretty squared away.  Funny, it's usually the other way around.

[CAPRANGER]

Folks, let me enlighten you....

Don't judge a book by it's cover.......because you have NOOO idea.

That is all...

[CAPRANGER]

Again, I'll enlighten you.....You don't have a clue how our Cadets are, NEVERTHELESS, you CAN'T judge our SM's.  We have the BEST SM's, and we're proud of it.  And let me say this, we're trained by the best, our SM's.  On a side note, our Squadron Commander is my father...just stop, you may think that I or we are messed up, but until you actually observe our operation in person, you shouldn't have a comment, and we're terribly sorry if y'all got the wrong impression.  We are proud of our accomplishments, and where we have gotten in the past five years.  We thank you for your comments, and cordially invite you to an Open House so you can really see the operation.  Thank you.

[JaL5597]

Again, I'll enlighten you.....You don't have a clue how our Cadets are, NEVERTHELESS, you CAN'T judge our SM's.  We have the BEST SM's, and we're proud of it.  And let me say this, we're trained by the best, our SM's.  On a side note, our Squadron Commander is my father...just stop, you may think that I or we are messed up, but until you actually observe our operation in person, you shouldn't have a comment, and we're terribly sorry if y'all got the wrong impression.  We are proud of our accomplishments, and where we have gotten in the past five years.  We thank you for your comments, and cordially invite you to an Open House so you can really see the operation.  Thank you.

Bill just stop.  Your making the hole deeper at this point.

Remember your actions on here reflect your squadron and our wing.  And based on what people have been telling me that impression is not a positive one.  Its time to stop arguing with people and time to start listening and thinking about how this mess can be fixed.

I am really tired of having to apologize for this whole thing. 

[Pace]

Folks, let me enlighten you....

Don't judge a book by it's cover.......because you have NOOO idea.

That is all...

OK, how about by attention to detail:

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP

It's abbreviated C/2d Lt (<- period left off to avoid confusion)
I know in another thread I (and I believe someone else) pointed this out already.

Or how about leadership by example from a cadet officer with regards to respect here (the linked page and the following page).

The high and mighty approach is what started the flame war last time.  Cut the ego please.  Your "know-it-all" attitude, superiority complex, and pride do you no good.  There are standards (uniform wear, customs/courtesies, etc.) and the only things we on this board have seen from you show us that you don't meet them.  We're not against you, just your attitude and behavior.  Cool off and follow the rules (and look the rules up in the regs first instead of taking someone's word on it), and life will flow much smoother.

[Pace]

Again, I'll enlighten you.....You don't have a clue how our Cadets are, NEVERTHELESS, you CAN'T judge our SM's.  We have the BEST SM's, and we're proud of it.  And let me say this, we're trained by the best, our SM's.  On a side note, our Squadron Commander is my father...just stop, you may think that I or we are messed up, but until you actually observe our operation in person, you shouldn't have a comment, and we're terribly sorry if y'all got the wrong impression.  We are proud of our accomplishments, and where we have gotten in the past five years.  We thank you for your comments, and cordially invite you to an Open House so you can really see the operation.  Thank you.

Let me say it again, we are not against you or your squadron, just your attitude and behavior.  Take a deep breath and try to take something positive out of all of this (for example: the advice to work on your courtesy to officers).  Also, I think you misunderstood my post.  I was complementing the senior members of your squadron, not insulting or criticizing them.

[CAPRANGER]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

[JaL5597]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

Try Lieutenant and Sir next time. 

[Pace]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

This may not be an official CAP proceding, but Lt Leslie IS your superior officer and IS your Assistant Wing Director of Cadet Programs.  He deserves more respect than you seem to be willing to show.  This lack of respect is EXACTLY what causes you problems.  Lack of respect speaks directly to your attitude, character, and credibility as a cadet (and moreso, as a cadet officer).

BTW, with the comments you've made to me and numerous other senior members, I would be well within my rights (as would they) to take this to your squadron commander (and then wing commander if that didn't do any good since your squadron commander is your father).  I don't plan on doing it because I'm more mature than that.  I would hope you would be mature enough to take a hint, realize when you're wrong, and learn from your attitude and mistakes.  BTW, the hints are from every poster on this board that has commented to you, your Wing Assistant DCP, and even your C/CC (in the "Cadets in SAR" thread he even said he would ask you to tone it down).  Please stop fighting a battle that has already been lost.

[Cmdbuddy]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

Here's where you're wrong.  By putting your grade in CAP along with your squadron, you are making the connection for us.  Therefore, you should be a good representative of your squadron, group, wing, and Civil Air Patrol as a whole (since I'm sure some non-members do occasionally read this board.)

If your squadron is as great as you claim it is, then show us by proper attitudes.  You can be proud of your accomplishments without acting the way you have been acting.

Finally, a note to everybody that has taken this off course (sorry Mike for modding in your section!): Get back on track.  Take the personal stuff to PM.  And maybe stop trying to feed the troll, if that's at all possible.

[Matt]

Here's where you're wrong.  By putting your grade in CAP along with your squadron, you are making the connection for us.  Therefore, you should be a good representative of your squadron, group, wing, and Civil Air Patrol as a whole (since I'm sure some non-members do occasionally read this board.)

If your squadron is as great as you claim it is, then show us by proper attitudes.  You can be proud of your accomplishments without acting the way you have been acting.

*Applauds*