coming to attention

[ladyreferee]

Now I have a serious question for all of you who have been around for years.  I have a cadet who comes to attention every single time anyone of any rank, or any senior member, walks past him.  This cadet will not sit down when asked to and waits standing at attention until the cadet commander orders him to sit down.  Please, where in the regulations does it say that a cadet should act this way?  It is driving us seniors absolutely bonkers!  I think it is extremely distracting.  I've only be attending for a year and most of our unit is new as well, but the cadet has everyone bewildered.     He now has a nickname because one of our guests asked a cadet, 'so what about the stiff kid?'  .  He was acting this way before he ever went to encampment too!  Is it acceptable for the commander to give a standing order to stop this behavior or is this actually proper and a good example for our other cadets to follow?

[Matt]

It's a courtesy to come to attention when an officer walks past you in formation, someone of higher rank speaks to you in formation or a ranking officer walks into a room NOT designated as a classroom (where there is instruction) unless they're a general officer (in the rare case) then the room is called to attention no matter what.  Normally for calling rooms to attention, as long as the officer is blessed with respect, typically repetitive callings are not necessary.  If it's during a class then he shouldn't be standing, that in and of itself is rude and un-courteous.

Is it logical for the CC or the DCC to give him an order not to observe courtesy, probably not, would it be logical to make the cadet use common sense, yes.

If all else fails - have him show you where it says to do such actions in the regs.  Why should you have to look it up to prove him wrong?  He should have to look it up to prove himself correct.

[Cmdbuddy]

It's a courtesy to come to attention when an officer walks past you in formation, someone of higher rank speaks to you in formation or a ranking officer walks into a room NOT designated as a classroom (where there is instruction) unless they're a general officer (in the rare case) then the room is called to attention no matter what.  Normally for calling rooms to attention, as long as the officer is blessed with respect, typically repetitive callings are not necessary.  If it's during a class then he shouldn't be standing, that in and of itself is rude and un-courteous.

Is it logical for the CC or the DCC to give him an order not to observe courtesy, probably not, would it be logical to make the cadet use common sense, yes.

If all else fails - have him show you where it says to do such actions in the regs.  Why should you have to look it up to prove him wrong?  He should have to look it up to prove himself correct.

Sorry Charlie, you're wrong.  For answers to these types of questions (and others that many cadets get wrong) check out the Myths and Legends page.

[ladyreferee]

Great page!  I'm so glad that you alerted me to this, thank you!

[Matt]

<scratches head>  Where on the M&L page does it say anything about coming to attention?

Unless you're assuming "hitting the wall" as this case, as I am not.  This is something totally different.  This is, assumingly during EVERYTHING and he's not "hitting the wall".  Namely, because he's not passing the officers, they are passing him.  He is in the wrong, yes, but only partially.  If you read my post, read it carefully and you will see that I have in fact gone into more depth than the M&L page.

I do like the M&L page, and it is very useful, extremely useful.  And there is no actual reg about coming to attention etc. that I could find in CAPP151 or in the drill manual.

The only place where I may be wrong would be calling the room to attention, which is a courtesy, no different than saluting the weather (American) flag as you walk past, it's not required, but it's simply a courtesy.

Hitting the Wall:
Myth:      If you're in a corridor, and an officer walks toward you, you have to "hit the wall" by placing your back and heels against the wall and standing at attention as the officer walks by.

Truth:      Cadets must "stand" when an officer enters the room, and traditionally that has been interpreted to mean stand at attention.  But when passing by an officer, there is no obligation to come to attention.  To be polite and respectful, a cadet would render a greeting such as "Good morning, sir."  Of course salutes are not exchanged inside, except when formally reporting (Ref: CAPP 151, 2d).

There is also, an underlaying issue, if I read correctly.  Why is he not sitting when he's being told to by SM's?  Or is that an inference which I am wrongly picking up.  Yes, no maybe so?

And out of curiosity, why the sarcasm?

[Pace]

I just skimmed through CAPP 151 and AFMAN 36-2203 and couldn't find anything to the point of standing at attention.  This is a pet peeve of mine, and I used to have a very good reasoning against people coming to attention in formations or standing at attention when an officer approaches them (read passes by them, not comes to speak to them).  I would strongly recommend reading the page in AFMAN 36-2203 about saluting.  It talks about groups or individuals coming to attention when approached by an officer.

Here's my experience:

If an officer simply comes near you, salute outside and give a verbal greeting indoors.  If they're coming to talk to you, in a training environment stand at attention and in an operational environment stand up.  This is a mix between CAPP 151 and AFMAN 36-2203 chapter 3.6.4.

As for officers entering and leaving the room, I've always been taught to call the room to attention for the ranking officer unless the SOP or person in charge dictates otherwise.  This one, for me at least, has been consistently taught by CAP, AFJROTC, and AFROTC.

As for members in formation, unless the SOP (read drill manual or local SOP) or person in charge dictates the policy, no one in a formation should do anything (salute, come to attention, etc.) without being given an order to do so by the person in command of the formation.

Not all of these are backed up 100% by regulations but are based on my experiences through CAP, AFJROTC, and AFROTC.

[Matt]

Makes sense, that's pretty much what I came up with on regs...  And thank you for clarifying the formation idea... That shines some new light on research for me... (*ponders* ,more things on the CAP pile - GREAT  )

But I'm still concerned about one point in the Captain's statement, but easily clarified by her... I'm in question as to whether he's not listening to SM's instructing him to sit.  Because that... would be bad.

Thank you kindly,
Matt

[WICAPMOM]

I have been around for over 18 years and have seen similar situations on many occasions from cadets newer seniors.

Coming to attention when outside of a formation and not as a result of a given order is meant to be a sign of respect.  This person may simply be trying to hard.  Is this cadet new?  It may simply be that they don't understand to what extents they should go.  The cadet definitely sounds a bit over zealous.  It may help to suggest that the Cadet Commander have a discussion with the cadet.  While reminding the cadet that the show of respect is, while greatly appreciated, becoming somewhat of an interruption.  Let the cadet know what is expected of them and what timing is appropriate.

[jacklumanog]

If your squadron has a chaplain, I'd tap him/her to gently address the subject with this cadet.  The chaplain has rank without command so these topics tend to be absorbed a bit easier when it is addressed in this way. Otherwise, it might seem as the sky is falling on this well-meaning cadet if it came from the CC or cadet commander.

Also, as a newer chaplain, I'm finding that "moral leadership" is more than just leading the "Values for Living" sessions.  My CC has also asked me to address the increasing problem of "dusting" among teens  --  the latest incarnation of "huffing" but with those dusting aerosol cans sold at Office Max in a 3-pack.

If my CC asked me to address this cadet on this issue, I wouldn't mind.

[captrncap]

How about when class is held outdoors, when the class is in progress, is calling the area to attention required?

[shorning]

How about when class is held outdoors, when the class is in progress, is calling the area to attention required?

You would call a group to attention if it would disrupt the class in progress.  That's disrespectful to the instructor and the students. 

[captrncap]

His Cadet Commander did not agree and advised him that he should have called them to attention. What I told my cadet (I am a Senior Member) was that he was not required to call the group to attention if the class was in progress- after I found out.

[shorning]

That's known as a power trip.  Give some people a little power or authority, and it goes to their head.