Eliminate ugly and expensive Cadet Officer shoulder boards

[MIKE]

My opinion?  Find a way to make the same epaulets they already use on their blues shirts work. 

Reason #1:  No new products need to be created.
Reason #2:  Cadet officers already get these for their blues shirts.  Consolidating is a good thing.
Reason #3:  Cost is much more reasonable.
Reason #4:  AFROTC wears blue epaulets on their service dress and it looks fine. 

Con #1: Yes, I get the enlisted jackets don't have epaulets.  That's why I said we'd need to find a way to make it work.  At least this suggestion has a lot fewer cons to it than the current system.

IMO requiring cadets have coats with epaulets to make it work is a bad idea for a number of reasons.  AFJROTC has their cadet officers wear their insignia on the lapels of the enlisted style new style service dress.  Admittedly their insignia would seem to work better for this than ours might.

[Major Carrales]

Truer words have never been spoken.  It should remain as it is, there is no need wasting time discussing such ancillary issues as this at any CAP National Level.

It's not worth discussing it because you're not a cadet forced to shell out $40 for a set of service coat rank insignia, but it's okay to beat to death discussions on tweaking, modifying, and downright recreating senior member uniforms?

Since it represents one of the ad nauseum uniform items to which many here see as "wastes of time and energy" or as a otherwise distractor.

Yeah, we discuss uniform items over and over here.  But there's a difference here.  Almost all of the senior member uniform threads (which we've all participated in, you and me included Joe) have been arguments to create a more aesthetic uniform.  Maybe you like your senior member uniform with blue epaulets, or without the silver sleeve braid, or with a darker color of nametapes, or with a different style badge... ALL of those threads are about ideas for the sake of making the uniforms look better in somebody's opinion.


Here the discussion is bringing up the Cadet Officer shoulder boards because they're unbelievably expensive (which on its own merits the discussion), and they're difficult to use, and they're aesthetically unpleasant to many.  So don't dismiss the thread simply because you believe it to be another thread on just aesthetics.

I have cadets who can't afford $40 for training, or field equipment, or encampment let alone one set of rank insignia.

As for the price of them, chalk it up to a sacrifice for being a cadet officer.  If I am not mistaken, even in the military persons of a certain rank are required to own certain uniform items...sabres, service caps, dress uniforms etc.

Excuse me?  I think you forget we're talking about cadets here.  Not senior members with jobs.

Don't even bring into the discussion military officers buying most of their uniforms out of pocket.  They get paid to be in their organization.  They traditionally pay for their own uniform items because they traditionally get paid more than enlisted, who get their uniforms issued to them or get allowances to cover it.  See the difference?   They're expected to pay because they get paid well.

A cadet officer may not even be old enough to hold a job in his or her state.   So what's chalking it up to being a cadet officer mean?  "Hey cadet, you promoted, congratulations!  You need to buy about $12 - $15 minimum in insignia just to get your basic blues shirt and BDUs up to snuff, and you'll also need to get a new set of books... - let's add $40 on to that for one single set of rank insignia, simply because senior members don't find it worth our time to discuss it amidst our discussions of demanding blue epaulets for ourselves and arguing over nametape colors."


Say you don't agree with changing it, but just don't dismiss it as a frivilous issue because people are looking to change how pretty their uniform is.  When I was a cadet, the boards cost $17 a set (plus the cost of metal pin on rank to be added to it).  Now that the cost has consistently increased (more so than just about any other piece of insignia I can think of) and total cost nears $40 (without counting in the $7 shipping from Vanguard), yes, I think it warrants discussion.




My opinion?  Find a way to make the same epaulets they already use on their blues shirts work. 

Reason #1:  No new products need to be created.
Reason #2:  Cadet officers already get these for their blues shirts.  Consolidating is a good thing.
Reason #3:  Cost is much more reasonable.
Reason #4:  AFROTC wears blue epaulets on their service dress and it looks fine. 

Con #1: Yes, I get the enlisted jackets don't have epaulets.  That's why I said we'd need to find a way to make it work.  At least this suggestion has a lot fewer cons to it than the current system.

Pylon,

I should think that if a cadet has made it to CAP CADET Officership that it took dedication.  We can assume this because such an act takes a good deal of time, energy and money.  We can also assume that...a cadet would be proud of the accomplishment.

This would require some sort of support...a parent, a unit or some other entity ( a sponsor).  They would have been to schools and encampments that created a cost that would have had to have been mitigated.  WHERE THERE EXISTeth  WILL there EXISTeth a WAY.

I may not be a cadet that has to shell out $40, but I am a CAP Officer that often finds funds and support, sometimes from his own funds, to provide for the cadets.  That is because I believe in the Cadet Program and that those that would need my help would be those that need the program the most.

You say that "they're aesthetically unpleasant to many," many could say the same about the shape of a state like Kansas.  Is that enough to make a discussion on chaning it's shape valid?  I should think not.  Additionally, the shoulder boards in question, as pointed out by MIKE, are not even mandatory.   I will go as far as to say that they are of the same traditional vein as such things as black robes for judges, 4ft 8 1/2 inch wheel bases on vehicles and even long time military uniforms like the Army Blue Uniform.

I mean, really, one person says they were from the 1960s...that's a mere 20 some years into CAP history.  We have few pure CAP traditions and there are those that would strip the remaining ones.  Sorry, Micheal, I can't see losing this tradition for a mere matter of $40 dollars.

I harbour a great deal of respect for you and your opinon's, Pylon, however, I think this is as much a non-issue as the TPU disscussions, discussions on CAP Spec Track Insignia or any of the other "distractor" discussions that end up with 12 pages.

In anycase...I am torn here.  Save money or save tradition?

[Major Carrales]

^  Wow....that totally eluded all of us.  Thanks Mike.  I can't believe no one brought that up yet.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

I guess then we can consider it "problem solved" for any and all future CAP senior member uniform issues, ideas, changes, or problems since a senior member can just choose to wear a different combination or uniform?

Got it.

In a bit of a ranting mood, I see.  It's OK, I often get into moments of hyperbole.

You know I am the biggest proponent of a 5-10 year moratorium on CAP Uniforms, come what may.  It took me a while to realize this, but I consider myself a creature of growth.... 

The discussion on uniforms...ranging from the "SERVICE COAT" meshegas, to the "CLASS A terminology" skirmishes all the way to classics like the "RIBBONS...yes/NO!" fluffernutter and "INCORRECT UNIFORM PICS" free-for-alls have created some of the worst vitriolic unbecoming exchanges to date.  And you would defend them?  Et tu, Pylon?

[dogboy]

It should remain as it is, there is no need wasting time discussing such ancillary issues as this at any CAP National Level.  

I find this a very odd argument on a section of this board devoted to "Uniforms & Awards: Ask questions about and discuss the wear of the various CAP uniforms, for both Senior Members and Cadets."

If you do not wish to participate in the discussion, that's your privilege. Don't criticize others for discussing something because you don't consider it important. It you don't have anything constructive to add to a discussion, please just stay out of it.

As for the price of them, chalk it up to a sacrifice for being a cadet officer. 

There are lots of Cadets with limited financial resources. I was one of them. We ought to strive to make the Cadet program fully available to all. 

IMO, most important is that the things are simply unbelievably ugly and bad design. They make Cadet officers look childish. The fact that they have been in use for 40 years makes it all the important that they be eliminated. Let's not make another 40 years of Cadet officers look stupid.

[MIKE]

My solution:

[Eagle400]

My solution:

You know, I agree with that 100%.  I agree because the cadet officer insignia would mirror the Air Force, not the Army. 

I know... I'm going to make Spaatz awardees mad... but it's time for the pips and diamonds to go.  Seriously.   

[Hawk200]

My solution:

One major problem with that line of thinking.

It makes sense.

And you know we just can't have any of that now, can we?   

[dogboy]

My solution:

Is this what AF Jr ROTC uses? If so, I agree. Maybe put the letters "CAP" on it also.

[Hawk200]

You know, I agree with that 100%.  I agree because the cadet officer insignia would mirror the Air Force, not the Army. 

Then again, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to eliminate the AFJROTC rank insignia, and go the same way across the board for all branch of service JROTC. The insignia would end up cheaper, there would be a lot more of it available.

Of course, Vanguard would lose a lot on cadet rank insignia.

[Major Carrales]

It should remain as it is, there is no need wasting time discussing such ancillary issues as this at any CAP National Level.  

I find this a very odd argument on a section of this board devoted to "Uniforms & Awards: Ask questions about and discuss the wear of the various CAP uniforms, for both Senior Members and Cadets."

If you do not wish to participate in the discussion, that's your privilege. Don't criticize others for discussing something because you don't consider it important. It you don't have anything constructive to add to a discussion, please just stay out of it.

As for the price of them, chalk it up to a sacrifice for being a cadet officer. 

There are lots of Cadets with limited financial resources. I was one of them. We ought to strive to make the Cadet program fully available to all. 

IMO, most important is that the things are simply unbelievably ugly and bad design. They make Cadet officers look childish. The fact that they have been in use for 40 years makes it all the important that they be eliminated. Let's not make another 40 years of Cadet officers look stupid.

I didn't say it was unimportant, I said it was ancillary.  

Simply put, any and all "uniform" discussion here...save for discussion of historical issues en re uniforms, is moot since this is no place to effect any change.  (Note: this person's above post us is one of the "vitriolic posts" I mentioned earlier.  Was that really necessary?  Could it not have been said in PM?  Is my opinion any less vaild because I expressed it different from what your's may be?)

[Eagle400]

My solution:

Is this what AF Jr ROTC uses? If so, I agree. Maybe put the letters "CAP" on it also.

No need - cadet officers already wear the "CAP" cutouts on the lapels of the service dress coat. 

[Cadet Tillett]

My solution:

Is this what AF Jr ROTC uses? If so, I agree. Maybe put the letters "CAP" on it also.

No need - cadet officers already wear the "CAP" cutouts on the lapels of the service dress coat. 

Yah, I say keep it simple and cheap.

[ZigZag911]

OK, I'm a "NO" vote on the funky stripes, no matter who uses them....they look too much like Soviet Union era Red Army noncom insignia!

[Eagle400]

OK, I'm a "NO" vote on the funky stripes, no matter who uses them....they look too much like Soviet Union era Red Army noncom insignia!

Why should that bother you... CAP has an award called the Red Service Medal!!!

[CASH172]

My 2 cents on this whole using AFJROTC insignia, CAP was founded before the USAF.  Plus CAP was the Army Air Corps Aux before the USAF Aux, so our roots are back to the Army style of things.  I say keep it because it's been a tradition for so long.  Plus, I know plenty of three diamonders that would get furious. 

[ZigZag911]

OK, I'm a "NO" vote on the funky stripes, no matter who uses them....they look too much like Soviet Union era Red Army noncom insignia!

Why should that bother you... CAP has an award called the Red Service Medal!!!

You have a good point there, but I still think the darn stripe things look ridiculous, sorry!

[Major Carrales]

OK, I'm a "NO" vote on the funky stripes, no matter who uses them....they look too much like Soviet Union era Red Army noncom insignia!

Why should that bother you... CAP has an award called the Red Service Medal!!!

You have a good point there, but I still think the darn stripe things look ridiculous, sorry!

'Tis a Question of aesthetics...I say keep them as they are.

[Eagle400]

My 2 cents on this whole using AFJROTC insignia, CAP was founded before the USAF.  Plus CAP was the Army Air Corps Aux before the USAF Aux, so our roots are back to the Army style of things.

Oh no, not the "Army traditions" argument again!   

Look: the AFJROTC cadet officer insignia looks better than the pips and diamonds.  This is coming from someone who wore pips in CAP.  Admittedly, it is different.  However, change is a good thing.   

It doesn't make much sense for the USAF Auxiliary to be wearing the cadet officer insignia of the Army, just like it doesn't make much sense for the USAF Auxiliary to be wearing the Army's reverse American Flag patch on the BDU.  See the connection? 

I say keep it because it's been a tradition for so long.

Just because it's been a tradition for so long doesn't mean it shouldn't change.  There used to be a time when ultramarine blue was actually in style.  That time was long ago.  Now it's really old hat and a number of people think it looks unprofessional on the BDU.  Well, I don't think the pips and diamonds look unprofessional on the uniform, but do you see my point?  Things change. 

There used to be a time when the pips and diamonds weren't out of place on the CAP uniform.  That was when CAP was under the Army.  Now that CAP is under the Air Force, it's time CAP adopted the cadet officer insignia of the Air Force (specifically, AFJROTC).  Besides, CAP's cadet airman insignias closely resemble those of AFJROTC, so why not use the same cadet officer insignia?     

Plus, I know plenty of three diamonders that would get furious.

Well, what can I say.  Change doesn't come easy.   

[Major Carrales]

My 2 cents on this whole using AFJROTC insignia, CAP was founded before the USAF.  Plus CAP was the Army Air Corps Aux before the USAF Aux, so our roots are back to the Army style of things.

 
Oh no, not the "Army traditions" argument again!   

Look: the AFJROTC cadet officer insignia looks better than the pips and diamonds.  This is coming from someone who wore pips in CAP.  Admittedly, it is different.  However, change is a good thing.   

It doesn't make much sense for the USAF Auxiliary to be wearing the cadet officer insignia of the Army, just like it doesn't make much sense for the USAF Auxiliary to be wearing the Army's reverse American Flag patch on the BDU.  See the connection? 

I say keep it because it's been a tradition for so long.

Just because it's been a tradition for so long doesn't mean it shouldn't change.  There used to be a time when ultramarine blue was actually in style.  That time was long ago.  Now it's really old hat and a number of people think it looks unprofessional on the BDU.  Well, I don't think the pips and diamonds look unprofessional on the uniform, but do you see my point?  Things change. 

There used to be a time when the pips and diamonds weren't out of place on the CAP uniform.  That was when CAP was under the Army.  Now that CAP is under the Air Force, it's time CAP adopted the cadet officer insignia of the Air Force (specifically, AFJROTC).  Besides, CAP's cadet airman insignias closely resemble those of AFJROTC, so why not use the same cadet officer insignia?     

Plus, I know plenty of three diamonders that would get furious.

Well, what can I say.  Change doesn't come easy.   

Yes, I do see the connection quite clearly.  Welcome back, Mr Smithson.

[Eagle400]

Yes, I do see the connection quite clearly.

And in case you're wondering Major Carrales, it has nothing to do with personal beliefs.  I love my country and the American flag.  I just feel that CAP needs to mirror the Air Force as closely as possible when it comes to uniforms, and that means no flag patch on the BDU.

By the way, the connection I was making had to do with CAP adopting Air Force uniform items and breaking away from Army uniform items.