CAP phase-in time for ABU's

[Hawk200]

[I was looking for an answer. In your opinion, do I qualify? This is not an attempt to flame you, it is for the purpose of establishing the boundaries of your opinion. I may ask other questions, but I will still respect your opinion.

From how you described yourself, it certainly sounds like you've earned the right.  Wether you choose to wear it or not should be a personal decision.

-SeattleSarge

I can accept that answer. What puzzles me is the fact that you seem to have earned the right as well, but you don't wear them. There is no way you could be a CAP Tech Sergeant without service in some branch of the military as an NCO. You meet your own standard, which is not by any means a low one.

In my unit, we had some problems with some cadets that didn't seem to be taking the uniform seriously. I had a conversation with the group, and told them that upon joining CAP, they became part of a legacy of people that have worked, sweat, and bled while wearing a uniform. The result could almost be described as miraculous. Before that conversation, I was making five or six corrections per meeting night. Since then, I've been making only one or two a month. The fact that there are higher standards to meet tends to help some people raise their own bar when they understand the history.

Personally, I don't have a problem with non-prior service personnel wearing the BDU as a uniform. I have issues with people that wear the hats, or the pants as a fashion statement, especially when it's the anti-conformist crowd (a reasoning I still don't get). The people I really have issues with are the ones that literally whizz (kind word, I know I can't say the other one) on the sacrifices of history's service members by wearing medals that they haven't earned, or setting themselves up to be war heroes when they have never seen combat.

Now that I think of it, you mention that one of the reasons you don't wear the BDU's is because of the friends you have in combat theaters. Have you ever asked them how they felt about you wearing a military utility in CAP? I think that if you do, you may find them more accomodating than you might realize.

[Hawk200]

Correct if you are attached to an Army unit most times you will be wearing ACU's regardless of branch.

With the general release of the ABU, the Air Force has said that Airman will no longer wear ACU's. If you're an Airman and have been issued an ABU, you wear it. According to the AF uniform board, there won't be any exceptions.

[SeattleSarge]

Now that I think of it, you mention that one of the reasons you don't wear the BDU's is because of the friends you have in combat theaters. Have you ever asked them how they felt about you wearing a military utility in CAP? I think that if you do, you may find them more accomodating than you might realize.

Hawk,

You are correct, I was a Staff Sergeant in the Army, a medic specifically.  However, right now I'm a civilian.  I'm trying to be a useful aircrewman, a half decent public affairs NCO, and from time to time a mentor in military subjects to my squadron.

I, like you, have issues with people wearing uniforms incorrectly, and wearing decorations that were unearned.  I really have problems with people wearing the national colors as clothing. 

Maybe it's the war, or my friends and relatives that are over there, that make me so sensitive to this, I don't know. 

I have a extremely high regard for folks like Mikey who've been there.  With their level of sacrifice going on I just don't feel that wearing that symbol is something I can personally justify.

Also, I really appreciate this thoughtful debate from you.  It's one of the reasons I enjoy participating here.

-SeattleSarge

[SARMedTech]

What about those of us without military service who have chosen careers that serve our country, ie public safety or EMS. Should I not wear a military style ie BDU uniform, which is what my agency has me in, with a flag on my shoulder and stripes on my sleeves simply because I have never seen battle? Ive mentioned in a couple other posts since coming off duty this morning that I saw 39 patients. 2 of the 3 that didnt live were rival gang members that shot each other. I was there when it happened, about a hundred feet from the gunfight. Sounds an awful lot like battle doesnt it.

[LtCol White]

How is wearing CAP BDU's disrespectful of servicemen overseas or anywhere???

This is my opinion and mine alone.  Forged from my own military service and experience.

A "battlefield" uniform is worn by warriors.  The right to wear it is earned through training, qualification, experience, and military service.  To me, it is a badge of honor like other awards and decorations given to soldiers, sailors, and airmen.

I mean no offense to those of you that do follow CAP directives and wear BDUs.  I'm sure all of you wear that uniform correctly and proudly.

I however, will not.  Too many friends of mine are in harms way right now, wearing that type of uniform, risking all everyday, for me to wear the symbol from my years past and be able to look them in the eye when, hopefully, they come home.

You can choose to disagree with my reasoning.  That's fine.  But frankly this issue is very personal to me and your opinions will not change my decision.

-SeattleSarge

I can respect your right to your opinion and your reasoning makes sense to you although I find it difficult to understand and I would not try to change your decision but I just don't understand how it can be perceived as disrespectful to wear BDUs.

Worn properly and proudly, it serves as a tribute to those serving in harms way because when the public sees CAP personnel in BDUs, it is a reminder that men and women ARE overseas in harms way and causes them to give thought to military personnel. I am a former Marine Infantry Officer who has been in combat. 

That is MY opinion on the matter

[Hawk200]

Hawk,

You are correct, I was a Staff Sergeant in the Army, a medic specifically.  However, right now I'm a civilian.  I'm trying to be a useful aircrewman, a half decent public affairs NCO, and from time to time a mentor in military subjects to my squadron.

I, like you, have issues with people wearing uniforms incorrectly, and wearing decorations that were unearned.  I really have problems with people wearing the national colors as clothing. 

Maybe it's the war, or my friends and relatives that are over there, that make me so sensitive to this, I don't know. 

I have a extremely high regard for folks like Mikey who've been there.  With their level of sacrifice going on I just don't feel that wearing that symbol is something I can personally justify.

Also, I really appreciate this thoughtful debate from you.  It's one of the reasons I enjoy participating here.

-SeattleSarge

I was aware that Mikey has been over there. In case I've misled you (which was unintentional) I am not a combat veteran. I do have eighteen years between active duty and Guard. I'm slated to go next year (Iraq). I don't know if that would change your opinion of our dialogue, but I hope I haven't led you to a an inaccurate conclusion.

I understand your opinion, I don't agree, but I do fully understand it (not as hard to do as some people might think).  You have earned the right to wear a uniform. Veteran's Day is about all veterans, not just the combat ones. You're one of those people.If you've stood ready to defend this country, without reservation, that day is for you too.

It may sound wierd, but I tend to be uncomfortable when people thank me for my military service. I usually respond with "Thank you for your support of the military". It makes it easier for me. Maybe I should listen to my own words for once.

Overall, having worn that uniform, you are one of the best people to convey the seriousness of wearing it properly to our younger members. Not to wear it seems like the waste of a hard earned talent.

Do I actually make any sense? I hope so, words on a screen have a different impact than when spoken to someone.

Meant to post this last night, but the cable dropped out.

[Sgt. Savage]

Aside from the polo shirt and grey slacks, every other uniform we wear looks like someone else's. BBDU's are the fatigue of the Coast Guard. BDU's are an antiquated combat uniform that no one accepts as the best attire for any war. Even the " Blazer Combo" was ripped off from Federal Security Guards. Lets face it, until we sport a pink tu-tu and a leather push-up bra, we'll always look like someone else.

I wear the BDU. It's economical and easy to acquire at the PX. I would rather see everyone in the BBDU. It promotes uniformity which is the only reason we all wear a uniform. So what if the Coasties get mad.

I have friends and family in the suck right now. I played in the mog. Frankly, the BDU is just another rag you throw on your back, I hated it then for the fact that it was lousy camouflage. I don't hold it close to my heart now either. It's not like everyone gets a CIB / CAB / CMB. That is what you earn, not a shirt and pair of pants.

[SARMedTech]

I too would rather see everyone in the BBDU, even though a recent diet got me slim enough to wear camo. Ive maintained for a long time that there is no reason for us to wear camo. First, its distinctive (the USCG is secure enough in their image that they really arent worried at all about, in addition to the fact that their new ODU have so many distinctive features that they will not easily be mistake, aside from our ultramarine tapes. I think the Blazer combo needs to be reserved for patron members and other non-operationals. If youre in the field, you should be in the BBDU, unless of course your "field" is the air, in which case the blue nomex would be the case...again, no need for us to wear green, except that alot of pilots love it. Going to all BBDUs eliminates the problems of the weight and grooming restrictions, except that I would hope that we could still maintain some beard length and style standards and some hair standards as well (not a problem for me since I shave my head). There really is no reason for the white/greys AND the white/blues other than to say "you can wear blue trousers if you have a mustache but not if you are 15 pounds overweight." Foolishness. So all members can go to the BBDUs, blue/whites, the blue nomex and blue field coveralls if the "operation" should require it. I also dont think there is any need for the blue/blues except that (and I am going to get flamed) there are members who feel the need to look like Momma Blue. Lets face it, there are so many of us that are trying to look USAF-ish and the USAF tries to slip in little things to seperate us from them whenever they can. If we have this AUX ON/AUX OFF thing going on, then lets just have our own uniforms across the board, just as we have our own set of ribbons, commendations, etc. I really dont think anyone can make a case for wearing the blues and the camo BDUs except that we are tied to the AF so we should try to identify with them by the way we look. We do plenty of things that are not AF related or tasked that establishing a little bit of our own identity would establish unity of appearance, esprit d'corp by not having "fat and fuzzy suits." Lets establish our own identity. If the AF was that concerned with us being identified with them, we would be like the USCGAUX and all members would be allowed to wear USAF and not just the "lean and clean crowd." I personally wont wear the AF style unis even though I now can because I dont want to participate in what is essentially discriminating against certain members. I know we have had this conversation many times and it always brings up arguments, but there is a much more clear and logical argument to be made for all CAP uniforms being distinctive than there is for a hodge podge.

[BillB]

Why all these references to USCG Aux? How many trhreads compare USCGAux annd USCG and the CAP as USAF Aux? CAP is very different from USCG, our roots go back to the Army Air Corp, not any sea going organization. And your reference is all for Senior members, not cadets. Cadets often can get BDUs surplus or at no cost from Squadrons. But you want everyone to switch to expensive (at least for cadets) BBDU. The required uniform for cadets is the USAF issued blues under the Cadet Free uniform program. Thus it is THE standard uniform for CAP, cadets and seniors. For those that don't meet the facial hair or weight standards there should be a work uniform (BBDU) and single blue/white or whatever standard uniform. There are to many varioation of senior uniforms, but only two for cadets. And forty five percent of CAP membership are cadets. But most all posts here suggesting uniform changes or new ribbons are for senior members only.
Recently there was a Hurricane Peparedness Expo at a local Mall. USCGAux was there and I've never seen so many overweight people with so many uniform violations assuming there is a uniform standard, no two were alike.

[RogueLeader]

Please, this is to be about phase-in times for the ABU's, not another BDU v BBDU thread.

Thank you.

[mikeylikey]

^  Phase in will begin in 3 years, with total CAP mandatory by 2015.  Just my prediction. 

[Pumbaa]

I really hope we get out of the BDU's... Imagine being confused with the Pakastani Army?  TP would go nuts!



Side note:  THis commander was killed today fighting against the Islamic radicals holed up in the Red Mosque.

[SAR-EMT1]

What about the "never" botton?

Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

I would! 

If that happened I would be VERY Disappointed. They look completely unprofessional and are at odds with our Air Force background.

[mikeylikey]

I really hope we get out of the BDU's... Imagine being confused with the Pakastani Army?  TP would go nuts!



Side note:  This commander was killed today fighting against the Islamic radicals holed up in the Red Mosque.

Hmmmm I don't care about that man........I care about our men an women who are dieing overseas.  Here is a link. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html 
Three good friends of mine have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Why are more American Soldiers dieing than Iraqi soldiers.  You brought this up, so here is the lowdown.  That man was killed outside the Mosque because he and his countrymen let radical fundamentalists infiltrate their society and did nothing about it until now.  Now that the US is committed to perhaps a five decade long war these men decide it will be easier now for them to get rid of their problems with the USA help.

I have lost men and women in my Command overseas, and I truly felt for them and their families.  I do not have any feelings towards the man you displayed above.

DONE!

[MIKE]

Was that outburst really necessary?  I mean really...

[Pumbaa]

WTH is that all about?

Oh and you are the only one who has lost friends?  I also have family over there.. I head to Kuwait myself shortly.. (Not that I will be in as much danger than those in the sandbox)

And you should care about that man because he is representative of the many others who will be taking on Islamic radicals.  Because if they don't then the fight comes to our shores and many more of your friends will die.

But that was not what the post was about and for you to have your little outburst was out of line and totally unnecessary.

[shorning]

They look completely unprofessional...

How so?  They may be "un-military", but unprofessional?  I think there is a lot more that is "unprofessional" about the way many folks wear their uniform and color has little to do with it. 

..and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Not as much as you'd think.  Air Force TA wears a blue uniform.  Not quite a BDU style, but more like the old fatigues.  The maintainers for the Thunderbirds wears a blue uniform as well.  I haven't heard anyone in the Air Force calling either of those groups unprofessional.

[LtCol White]

They look completely unprofessional...

How so?  They may be "un-military", but unprofessional?  I think there is a lot more that is "unprofessional" about the way many folks wear their uniform and color has little to do with it. 

..and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Not as much as you'd think.  Air Force TA wears a blue uniform.  Not quite a BDU style, but more like the old fatigues.  The maintainers for the Thunderbirds wears a blue uniform as well.  I haven't heard anyone in the Air Force calling either of those groups unprofessional.

Although I wear BDU's, I see nothing wrong with the BBDU. Worn PROPERLY, I think they look fine and professional for those who choose to wear them.

[Hawk200]

They look completely unprofessional...

How so?  They may be "un-military", but unprofessional?  I think there is a lot more that is "unprofessional" about the way many folks wear their uniform and color has little to do with it. 

Agreed, on "un-military" as opposed to "unprofesional". The appearance is the problem, not the cloth.

..and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Not as much as you'd think.  Air Force TA wears a blue uniform.  Not quite a BDU style, but more like the old fatigues.  The maintainers for the Thunderbirds wears a blue uniform as well.  I haven't heard anyone in the Air Force calling either of those groups unprofessional.

Air Force TA is Air Force TA, not the rest of the Air Force. It's a specialized uniform that serves a purpose in the same way medical whites do. They designate a group of people with a specific duty and set of skills for a specific purpose.

Not to mention, there has never been a time in the United States Air Force history that all airman wore blue fatigues. Many Air Force personnel are not aware of what TA even does, much less seen them. The BBDU fills a different purpose anyway, so just comparing them based on color isn't really apt.

Anyway, to bring it back on track: Three to four years seems to be the crowd favorite on phase-in. How many people are placing pre-orders on ABU's? And got any resources to share?

[Eagle400]

I predict the phase-in time for the ABU is going to be the same as the phase-in time was for the BDU: 6 years.  That's 6 years after 2011.

So it is probable that no one in CAP will be wearing ABU's until 10 years from now.  The Air Force needs to outfit everyone in the Air Force first, and when there are leftovers, those will go to CAP.