CPPT Gray Area??

[Sierra_Ranger17]

Hello,

I'm a TFO and my sister is a C/CMSgt. If she has friends over, how do I handle CPPT? She hangs out with squadron friends after meetings and I'm not sure whether I can go with. Since she can't drive I usually tag along but I don't want to get in trouble if this continues, especially because I'm male.

Also, she is making a Discord server for an upcoming squadron project. Can I be on it with 20+ other cadets or does it fall under closed media?

HELP!!

[Eclipse]

Hello,

I'm a TFO and my sister is a C/CMSgt. If she has friends over, how do I handle CPPT? She hangs out with squadron friends after meetings and I'm not sure whether I can go with. Since she can't drive I usually tag along but I don't want to get in trouble if this continues, especially because I'm male.

Your siste, obviously, is no issue, with other kids who are cadets, the 3-up rule applies, at a minimum, otherwise probably a non-issue, though you should be vigilent at all times of your behavior, and consider reducing your involvement with them and let them find other rides.

An 18+ year old male with under age females has 10000³ pitfalls without CAP being in the mix. Consider that.

Also, she is making a Discord server for an upcoming squadron project. Can I be on it with 20+ other cadets or does it fall under closed media?

Best bet is to steer clear of that.

[NIN]

Hello,

I'm a TFO and my sister is a C/CMSgt. If she has friends over, how do I handle CPPT? She hangs out with squadron friends after meetings and I'm not sure whether I can go with. Since she can't drive I usually tag along but I don't want to get in trouble if this continues, especially because I'm male.

Also, she is making a Discord server for an upcoming squadron project. Can I be on it with 20+ other cadets or does it fall under closed media?

HELP!!

TFO in my squadron is in the same boat. C/CMSgt sister rides to CAP with him. (I had to check to make sure you weren't my guy!)

He goes to the "after meeting meeting" at DQ with his sister, but sits at the far end of the table, with her between him and anybody else.

He's cordial and social with the cadets present, but not chummy.

There are enough people there, in a public place, that I'm *reasonably* sure no hanky-panky is going on.

[darkmatter]

I personally don't like how the CPPT is worded for former, cadets current senior members. It's worded like all your friends you made when you were a cadet, your just suppose to cut all ties with them can't hang out with them no interaction. You can't make friend with someone then stop on a dime.

[EMT-83]

There's a reason it's called crossing over to the dark side.

[Ned]

I'm a TFO and my sister is a C/CMSgt. If she has friends over, how do I handle CPPT? She hangs out with squadron friends after meetings and I'm not sure whether I can go with. Since she can't drive I usually tag along but I don't want to get in trouble if this continues, especially because I'm male.

Let me see if I can help.

The  CPP normally limits substantial contact between cadets and senior members outside of official CAP activities, with some exceptions for relatives and professional relationships like teachers who happen to have cadets in their classes.  Based on your description here, there is certainly nothing wrong with going out after the meeting with your cadet sister for a snack and discussion about the meeting.  The other cadets (presumably your sister's friends) however are the problem. Unless another exception applies, it would be improper for you to socialize with them without another senior present.

The intent of these provisions is to minimize the chances of a cadet and senior developing an improper  "peer-to-peer" relationship in place the appropriate teacher/leader/mentor relationship our program requires.

Take a look at CAPR 52-10, paragraph 2-7(c) for a more complete explanation.

Also, she is making a Discord server for an upcoming squadron project. Can I be on it with 20+ other cadets or does it fall under closed media?

I am not particularly familiar with the Discord app, but looking quickly at their website, it appears to be a gamer-friendly text and voice messaging app that allows users to communicate freely and securely.  That rather sounds like it would fall into the prohibition against closed media because it appears that the messages cannot easily be monitored by third parties.  Accordingly, you may only use Discord to send "brief messages of an official nature" to a cadet. (CAPR 50-10, para 2-7(b).) Personally, I would avoid it altogether. 

Thank you for asking these thoughtful questions.  I hope this helps.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

[abdsp51]

I personally don't like how the CPPT is worded for former, cadets current senior members. It's worded like all your friends you made when you were a cadet, your just suppose to cut all ties with them can't hang out with them no interaction. You can't make friend with someone then stop on a dime.

You totally miss the point behind CPP then. 

[darkmatter]

I personally don't like how the CPPT is worded for former, cadets current senior members. It's worded like all your friends you made when you were a cadet, your just suppose to cut all ties with them can't hang out with them no interaction. You can't make friend with someone then stop on a dime.

You totally miss the point behind CPP then.

Then explain why it's written as such.

[abdsp51]

I personally don't like how the CPPT is worded for former, cadets current senior members. It's worded like all your friends you made when you were a cadet, your just suppose to cut all ties with them can't hang out with them no interaction. You can't make friend with someone then stop on a dime.

You totally miss the point behind CPP then.

Then explain why it's written as such.

I can't speak to why it's written as such.  But if you're having heart burn with this now good luck in the professional world. 

But again I see you miss the point behind CPP and totally misunderstand the verbiage in regards to former cadets turned senior members. 
You can interact with them at meetings and activities.  You can't interact with them one on one unless there is a another party or parties.  That is to protect not only the cadet but you as well.  I am going to take a stab and say your between 18-21 far to young to have to deal with the pains that any type of misconduct allegation can bring. 

There are plenty of policies similar to this in many organizations.  Ultimately you made the decision to become a senior member, if you wanted to hang out with cadets you should have stayed a cadet.

[edited to fix quote]

[Ned]

Then explain why it's written as such.

Let me try.

All seniors are charged with protecting cadets, and seniors working in CP are all leaders, mentors, and coaches to our cadets.  A teaching / mentoring relationship is incompatible with a peer-to-peer friendship.  You can certainly be "friendly" with cadets, but not friends.  And we do that for important reasons.  First, it is "prejudicial to the good order and discipline " of our cadet program, because it undermines discipline and the necessary teacher-student relationship.  You don't get to chill on the weekends with your high school teachers, coaches, or college professors, chatting about your love lives, sports, or music.  Because there is a necessary separation between the two roles for the teacher to be effective.

Similarly, when an enlisted soldier or airman is commissioned through OCS/OTS, they do not normally return to the same unit because of the presumably strong friendships that soldier or airman formed with other enlisted folks before becoming an officer.  The military has specific rules that restrict "fraternization" between officers and enlisted specifically to preserve unit order and discipline.  Obviously CAP is not subject to the UCMJ, but the underlying rationale is the same.

Cadet/senior friendships almost always cause strife and Drama in the unit.  Did Cadet X get selected to be the next flight commander because X earned it, or because X is TFO Lee's best friend?  The perception of favoritism in a unit is almost as bad as actual favoritism.  Poor X might actually be passed over for command because TFO Lee is bending over backwards to appear fair.  But mostly the rest of the unit will not really know, and that leads to Drama.

Second, peer-to-peer relationships measurably increase the risk to cadet members.  And reducing actual risk to cadets is the whole point of the CPP.  Seniors responsible for supervising cadets have difficulty holding their friends to the same safety standards as non-friend cadets.  Whether that is tolerating horseplay on a flight line, or stopping inappropriate sexual comments or teasing at a weekly meeting.  Seniors who are "friends" with cadets are also at greater risk of allowing the friendship to grow into a romantic relationship, which is always prohibited in CAP.

I certainly understand about the value of friendships developed among cadets.  I am proud to say that some former fellow cadets of mine are still my good friends many decades later.  And I truly value those friendships.

There are ways to manage the transition from a "cadet with a lot of cadet friends" to a senior member in CAP.  Following the example of the military, the new senior could move to another unit.  If that won't work, you could either pause your CAP membership for a bit so you can retain your valued friends until they, too have crossed to the Dark Side.  For me, it turned out that relatively few of my buddies went on to become seniors.  (One joined the Navy, a couple went to college out of state, etc.)  I also started working with another cadet unit nearer my college.

There are undoubtedly other ways to manage the transition.  But the rules remain the rules, and  as a senior member you may not have a peer-to-peer relationship with a cadet.  Period.

I hope this helps.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[Alaric]

I personally don't like how the CPPT is worded for former, cadets current senior members. It's worded like all your friends you made when you were a cadet, your just suppose to cut all ties with them can't hang out with them no interaction. You can't make friend with someone then stop on a dime.

You totally miss the point behind CPP then.

Then explain why it's written as such.

Because CAP is part of the Nanny State   I agree with many parts of CPPT but in many others the presumption seems to be that all adults are potential predators.

[Alaric]

Then explain why it's written as such.

Let me try.

All seniors are charged with protecting cadets, and seniors working in CP are all leaders, mentors, and coaches to our cadets.  A teaching / mentoring relationship is incompatible with a peer-to-peer friendship.  You can certainly be "friendly" with cadets, but not friends.  And we do that for important reasons.  First, it is "prejudicial to the good order and discipline " of our cadet program, because it undermines discipline and the necessary teacher-student relationship.  You don't get to chill on the weekends with your high school teachers, coaches, or college professors, chatting about your love lives, sports, or music.  Because there is a necessary separation between the two roles for the teacher to be effective.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

Funny I remember many social occasions with my professors in both undergraduate and graduate school, they must have had nefarious plans and all we students just sheep like victims.  Lucky I survived

[Sierra_Ranger17]

Thank you all for the help!! I'll keep your advice in mind in the future. Being a TFO is tough because it's easy to forget that I'm not on a level with cadets, even though we're the same age. Professional separation is something I'm working on, and I'll strive to do better as I gain experience.

Does anyone know of an instant messanger we could use that I'm allowed to be on? Email is cumbersome when planning rapidly changing details for this project. Thanks in advance.

[Ned]

Although it appears that the OP has most of what he needs, I need to address this.

Funny I remember many social occasions with my professors in both undergraduate and graduate school, they must have had nefarious plans and all we students just sheep like victims.  Lucky I survived

The world is undoubtedly a better place because you are here, but let me clear up a misunderstanding. 

There is a world of difference between meeting at a social occasion and a peer-to-peer friendship. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Meeting a cadet at a social occasion is not necessarily improper.  CAP often arranges social occasions for our membership, attended by both cadets and seniors.  Various banquets, cadet balls, unit pizza nights, and other social affairs are not uncommon.  The regulation specifically permits inadvertent brief meetings at other kinds of social occasions, or mutual membership in outside organizations.

Like you, I met my undergraduate and grad school professors periodically at mixers.  I suspect they were trying to "humanize" the faculty.  Almost always awkward affairs with stifling polite conversation on safe subjects.  Then I went out with my friends.  There was never any confusion in my mind about whether I was friends with Professor Kingsfield.  I suspect your experience was similar.


And so the point remains.  Teachers should not and can not be both effective and a peer-to-peer friend with their students.  Friendly, yes.  But not friends.  I suspect there are some former teachers out there who had difficulty with this concept.  And this is the universal, mainstream rule.  And as I have done several times before, I invite you to point to any national youth serving organization that allows or encourages the leaders to befriend the students.  I can save you some time, it is not the Boy or Girl Scouts, JROTC, the Royal Rangers, or nationally-recognized faith communities.  Neither is it Little League, Boys and Girls Clubs, or Camp Fire.  Ditto for Young Marines and the YWCA.

[Alaric]

Although it appears that the OP has most of what he needs, I need to address this.

Funny I remember many social occasions with my professors in both undergraduate and graduate school, they must have had nefarious plans and all we students just sheep like victims.  Lucky I survived

The world is undoubtedly a better place because you are here, but let me clear up a misunderstanding. 

There is a world of difference between meeting at a social occasion and a peer-to-peer friendship. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Meeting a cadet at a social occasion is not necessarily improper.  CAP often arranges social occasions for our membership, attended by both cadets and seniors.  Various banquets, cadet balls, unit pizza nights, and other social affairs are not uncommon.  The regulation specifically permits inadvertent brief meetings at other kinds of social occasions, or mutual membership in outside organizations.

Like you, I met my undergraduate and grad school professors periodically at mixers.  I suspect they were trying to "humanize" the faculty.  Almost always awkward affairs with stifling polite conversation on safe subjects.  Then I went out with my friends.  There was never any confusion in my mind about whether I was friends with Professor Kingsfield.  I suspect your experience was similar.

You would be incorrect, in addition to the type of mixers you are  discussing I often participated in small group interactions and even one on one with faculty where mathematical and economic theories were discussed and food and drink consumed. I played chess on a regular basis with one of my professors, participated in trivia contests with another. I remain friends with those people even today.  Once again for those of us who do not need big brother looking after us, we manage

[Eclipse]

Once again for those of us who do not need big brother looking after us, we manage

And for those who hid bad behavior from Big Brother, the regs exist.

Sadly there are people in this world who need protection.

[kwe1009]

Once again for those of us who do not need big brother looking after us, we manage

And for those who hid bad behavior from Big Brother, the regs exist.

Sadly there are people in this world who need protection.

And don't forget that protect is for everyone.  The cadet is protected from predators and Senior Member has protection from false accusation and/or unwanted advances. 

[TheSkyHornet]

I can't really decipher if I missed this or not above---

All of the rhetoric regarding the dating stuff above is moot to the question asked. CAP's policy states that there is a distinction between individuals who knew each other before CAP and those who met in CAP. Regarding meeting someone in CAP, your private life is your private life, so long as your relationship is not what could be considered inappropriate. There are numerous instances where someone can develop into being a personal mentor, granted there is no overstep in their relationship in CAP and with legal guardians (e.g., a senior member who tutors someone, helps them through substance abuse, etc.). That's a personal matter outside of CAP.

If you travel with a cadet, that's between you and that cadet's parents. There are ways to "CYA" on having someone else's kid in your car. But that's getting too detailed for what this topic is. As for your sister inviting friends over, there's nothing wrong with you sitting in the living when they're all hanging around in the living room. It's just a matter of how far you take that relationship. If there is any suggestion that it's becoming intimate between you and one of those cadets, it's a problem in CAP (regardless of what the law may say). If you're driving your sister and her friend to prom, that's not a big deal. If you drive them to the mall, not a big deal. If you drive them to the mall and shop with them, not a big deal. If you're driving your sister's friend without your sister there, okay, now I'm going to start questioning what's going on here. It may be perfectly legal; fair enough; but CAP says no.

You can be friends with cadets as a senior member. Friends is a loose term. But you need to watch that relationship and make sure it doesn't go too far.

I appreciate the question though, and it's a good one. I'd much rather have someone trying to figure out what they should be doing than to think "Oh, it's fine either way." I think you're okay with your situation. Just be aware of it.

[Eclipse]

CAP's policy states that there is a distinction between individuals who knew each other before CAP and those who met in CAP.

No, it doesn't.

Regarding meeting someone in CAP, your private life is your private life, so long as your relationship is not what could be considered inappropriate.

No, it's not, at least in regards to adult and cadet interaction.

There are numerous instances where someone can develop into being a personal mentor, granted there is no overstep in their relationship in CAP and with legal guardians (e.g., a senior member who tutors someone, helps them through substance abuse, etc.). That's a personal matter outside of CAP.

No, it's not.

If you travel with a cadet, that's between you and that cadet's parents.

No, it isn't.

There are ways to "CYA" on having someone else's kid in your car. But that's getting too detailed for what this topic is. As for your sister inviting friends over, there's nothing wrong with you sitting in the living when they're all hanging around in the living room. It's just a matter of how far you take that relationship. If there is any suggestion that it's becoming intimate between you and one of those cadets, it's a problem in CAP (regardless of what the law may say).

Spending time with cadets outside of CAP could well be considered a boundary violation as a minimum,
and is not a good idea.

Yes.  When you turn 18, you have decisions to make, at least in a CAP context.

You can be friends with cadets as a senior member. Friends is a loose term. But you need to watch that relationship and make sure it doesn't go too far.

No, you really can't. It's a conflict of interest from both perspectives, and for every anecdotal "but I knew this one..."
there's 10 examples that go sideways, either in spectacular, media-related ways, or more generally, subtle, less
obvious ones.

Time for you to review the Cadet Protection regulations.

[foo]

CAP's policy states that there is a distinction between individuals who knew each other before CAP and those who met in CAP.

No, it doesn't.

Yes, it actually does. See "prior relationships."

On the rest I concur, especially your conclusion.