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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Minimum uniform and winter
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Geber
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: NER-VT-009

« on: November 29, 2017, 03:41:25 PM »

39-1 says

1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms
described here...

1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the
Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate....


I'm a new senior member. Having spent as much as I care to on radio instruments and supplies (which support both my ham and CAP activities) I wish to keep uniform expenditures to a minimum. So I meet the minimum requirement by having the USAF Blue Service Uniform (shirt, trousers, belt, tie, black combat boots, insignia). I also have the BDU uniform, most of which was issued by my squadron.

I do not have any uniform outerwear. So when attending cold weather events, is it more appropriate to wear civilian cold weather outerwear with the minimum uniform or BDU, or wear strictly civilian clothing? This question is especially oriented to missions; I can satisfy the requirement for meetings by simply leaving the coat in the car for the short walk from the parking lot to the building.
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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,145

« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 04:05:36 PM »

As a senior member, you may not wear civilian outerwear with your "Minimum USAF-style Uniform".  Wearing civilian clothing while functioning on "missions" is problematic.   Regulations spell out when a member must wear a uniform or may wear "civvies".  In any event, enjoy the comments to come.  You will be informed.
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Red 6
Recruit

Posts: 11
Unit: PCR-OR-055

« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 04:28:28 PM »

You can find woodland ECWCS jackets for under $100 on the web. I just googled 'gore tex bdu parka gen 1' and came up with a ton of hits. Another option is a field jacket and liner. You can check out local surplus stores and they're pretty reasonable in price.

Red 6
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 04:35:17 PM by Red 6 » Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,587

« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 05:36:19 PM »

If you don't want to shell out a lot for winter over-garments.....you may want to instead invest in the corporate minimum uniforms.   You can wear what ever you want over BBDUs and the Grey and Whites.



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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Geber
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: NER-VT-009

« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 05:52:54 PM »

You can find woodland ECWCS jackets for under $100 on the web. I just googled 'gore tex bdu parka gen 1' and came up with a ton of hits. Another option is a field jacket and liner. You can check out local surplus stores and they're pretty reasonable in price.

Red 6

Thanks. There are no local surplus stores. Outerwear lasts me a long time; I wouldn't spend $100 on something that will be non-regulation in a few years. If I'm visiting some bigger cities, I'll stop in at any surplus stores and see what they have.
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Geber
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: NER-VT-009

« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 05:53:42 PM »

If you don't want to shell out a lot for winter over-garments.....you may want to instead invest in the corporate minimum uniforms.   You can wear what ever you want over BBDUs and the Grey and Whites.

Thanks. That's an option I've had in the back of my mind.
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,683
Unit: of issue

« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 06:06:07 PM »

What size are you? I might have a woodland GoreTex you can have for the cost of shipping.  ;)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Red 6
Recruit

Posts: 11
Unit: PCR-OR-055

« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 11:18:37 PM »


[/quote]

Thanks. There are no local surplus stores. Outerwear lasts me a long time; I wouldn't spend $100 on something that will be non-regulation in a few years. If I'm visiting some bigger cities, I'll stop in at any surplus stores and see what they have.
[/quote]

June 2021 is more than a couple of years.
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Geber
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: NER-VT-009

« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 01:14:07 PM »

What size are you? I might have a woodland GoreTex you can have for the cost of shipping.  ;)

I wear a 42 short suit jacket or blazer. I don't know what that would translate to for all the different kinds of outerwear.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2017, 02:06:06 PM »

As a senior member, you may not wear civilian outerwear with your "Minimum USAF-style Uniform".  Wearing civilian clothing while functioning on "missions" is problematic.   Regulations spell out when a member must wear a uniform or may wear "civvies".  In any event, enjoy the comments to come.  You will be informed.

FTFY. Concur.

V/r
Spam
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,074

« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 02:35:29 PM »

You can keep trying to sell that, but no one is buying it any more, as is now codified in the regs.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 02:45:38 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 05:19:28 PM »

(Heeeere we go, headed for a lock, predictably).


The regs (including ABU instructions):

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014, with the updated ABU wear instruction dated 24 Oct 2016. 
"1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. . This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards". [emphasis added].

Here are the detailed parts to help members buy appropriate gear:
"Cold weather accessories.  Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves worn solely with ABUs).  With the exception of functional items, cold weather gear accessories are only worn while indoors".
5.1 1.10 defines cold weather accessories.
6.3.1.7.3 defines warmuff color and design.
- Black watch cap currently auth. for BDU per 5.1.1.8. Headgear.
- Gloves/scarf/muffs currently auth. for BDU per 5.1.1.10. Cold Weather Accessories.
- Overarching section currently authorizes wear of some cold weather gear "with authorized outer garments". Since ABUs are now authorized, the implication would be that gloves, scarves, and muffs as defined in 39-1 are authorized if they are as described below (e.g. black or sage green, etc.):
CHAPTER 6 – OUTERGARMENTS, HEADGEAR, RANK INSIGNIA AND ACCESSORIES
"6.3. Jewelry, Eyewear, Electronic Devices, Bags, Backpacks, Cold Weather and Other Accessories.
6.3.1. USAF-style Uniform Standards
6.3.1.7. Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when
wearing authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves may be worn solely with the service dress uniform
and BDUs). With the exception of functional items, cold weather accessories are only worn while
outdoors.
6.3.1.7.1. Gloves (black or sage green). Gloves may be worn with all authorized
outer garments. They will be all one color, leather, knitted, tricot or suede, or a combination of leather,
knitted, tricot, and suede. Black or sage green gloves may be worn with the BDU and FDU and all
authorized outer garments to the BDU and FDU. Only black gloves may be worn with the service dress
uniform and all approved outer garments worn with the blue service and service dress uniforms.
6.3.1.7.2. Scarf (black). A scarf may be worn with all authorized outer garments
except the pullover and cardigan sweaters (when worn solely as an outer garment). The scarf must be
tucked in and will only be worn with an outer garment. The scarf will not exceed 10 inches in width and
can be knit, all wool or cotton simplex, with or without a napped surface.
6.3.1.7.3. Earmuffs (black). Earmuffs may be worn with all authorized outer
garments and may wrap around either the top or rear of the head. Earmuffs may be made of any material
and will only be worn with an outer garment"



The attempted workaround request from Ned, in apparent good faith to seek a compromise:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21688.20
and the forthcoming CP pub:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPR_601__Cadet_Program_Management__36D2A228D5925.pdf
Relevant section:
"2.6.2.5. Uniforms. In cold weather, commanders and activity directors will prioritize protection from the elements over adherence to CAP uniform standards".



How to reconcile, "SOLE SOURCE FOR WEAR INSTRUCTIONS" and "PRIORITIZE PROTECTION"?  What this says to me is that we do have a bit of compromise suggested here. Activity directors should prioritize member safety outdoors over adherence to a specific uniform of the day (UOD). Examples of applying this could include:

• Allowing members to have the freedom to travel to/report in/depart while wearing warm and safe civilian clothing, rather than require members to purchase USAF style outer wear, or violate existing and approved 39-1 prohibitions against mixing USAF style and civilian clothing. Members can then wear the UOD at the activity.

•Relaxing adherence to a specified uniform of the day, to include a wider range of acceptable uniforms (e.g. ABU/BDUs with coat, rather than the less common Class A blues coats, or corporates of varying types for adults over 18). Basically, wear the warmest uniform you HAVE, even if that means BDUs to a Wing Conference in March.

To me, those seem like pretty good compromise measures, in the spirit of what the CP reg asks. I'm sure there are others.


Read otherwise, as a license to mix civilian clothing with USAF style clothes, this would imply a direct and conscious effort by the CP staff to create disharmony with and undermine CAPM 39-1 provisions on the issue. I don't believe that's the case.  I'm of course open to revisiting the issue should NHQ issue a coordinated revision to 39-1 *(with CAP-USAF concurrence) to eliminate requirements for correct wear of USAF style uniforms without civilian gear.






Eclipse, you sound like a "but the SCIENCE is SETTLED - shut up, denier!" global warming enthusiast. The regs are clear. Stop pushing division and ignorance of the regs, and stop trying to shut down discourse between other people by belittling them. I know its your main tactic - just please, stop.


V/r
Spam

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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,683
Unit: of issue

« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 05:30:54 PM »

What size are you? I might have a woodland GoreTex you can have for the cost of shipping.  ;)

I wear a 42 short suit jacket or blazer. I don't know what that would translate to for all the different kinds of outerwear.

Let me check the size when I get home. I think it might be too big for you, it is either a Large Long or a Large Regular.  A Large Regular might work just fine. :)

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,683
Unit: of issue

« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 06:53:09 PM »

Dude, you are so in luck. Its a medium-regular. Should fit a 42S just fine if not a tiny bit long.

:)

 PM me your address and we'll figure out shipping.  I guess it will be about $10 or $13 for a medium flat rate box. I'll have to look.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,074

« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 07:05:57 PM »

Spam, 39-1 hasn't been the "sole source of anything", except maybe revenue for VG, ever.
It's always had that tenant, and it's never been true, nor enforced.

Someone with your experience and level of involvement knows that very well, and pretending otherwise,
just to try to make a point that potentially excludes members, especially cadets, from participant is
100% disingenuous.

That same reg, a little further down, also says that CAP can't require a cadet wear anything but the MBU,
unless it is issued to them, which tells you exactly how "in balance" the regs ARE.

Are you sending members home who are wearing ABUs?  Because there is currently no "reg-legal"
approval for them to be worn, nor are they in the purportedly "sole source" of 39-1. 

Work the CAP that exists, not the one you wish it was.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 08:06:07 PM »

“If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If neither are on your side, pound on the table.”

"Send them home, send them home"... you keep pounding, Eclipse.


I will not "work" the system as you seem to advocate (cherry picking phrases, and conveniently ignoring the parts that don't support your positions). I will seek to enforce and support the regs and will continue to seek a reasonable accommodation which doesn't violate any of them. To that extent, your alarm and concern about ABUs is a red herring; ABUs, along with the ES mission, are technically optional elements (since you're picking red herrings to argue over).

The right thing to do is to enforce the no-civilian clothing restriction with USAF style, to educate and help members to buy reasonable cost/quality compliant gear, and to use the new 60-1 language as support to plan events wisely so people aren't forced out of events by not being backed into a uniform-deficient corner.

Not, of course, to simply break the clearly expressed reg approved by CAP-USAF for THEIR uniform styles because you want to pound tables.

V/r
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,074

« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 08:31:41 PM »

The trouble is, the regs, the facts, history, and the practical reality of CAP support the
common sense idea that you don't send a cadet home because they don't have the right
outerwear on a cold day. 

NHQ literally agrees with that, and has codified it.  You trying to attack me personally
won't change that, which is clearly frustrating for you, and is just an indication
that despite what you wish CAP was, you understand you're wrong, and just want to try and stand on
some misguided principal that has literally never existed in CAP.

I don't even disagree that NHQ has set up conflicting regulations, but that isn't something new,
nor did it / does it change anything that has been the reality of CAP for decades.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,081
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 08:43:04 PM »

And I think we're done here. Asked, answered, and elaborated ad nauseum.

Got something useful to contribute - you know the drill.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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