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December 16, 2017, 08:53:25 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Remembering brave men
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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2017, 11:47:20 AM »

Critical Incident case studies are essential to insuring peoples lives are not lost in vain.  An agency I worked for, each year at what we called "Block Training" would take a critical incident and completely debrief it.  In the case of LE, it was usually a violent encounter.  Everyone had to attend.  In a couple of the cases, there would be times where you could leave the class because autopsy photos or other grisly details would be discussed.  So if you were a friend, or didn't really want to hear about the autopsy conducted on the body of the deputy you used to have lunch with every night for 5 years with, you could leave during that portion.  You could also request to be exempt from it for any other reason, they would usually and they would allow it, but most people stayed.  The idea was to learn, not give someone nightmares for another year.

In the case of aviation, I make it a point to review NTSB reports on the makes and models of aircraft that I fly.  They all have value, but I also dont have all day to sit and read them all, so I pick the air frames that apply to me.   In the world of public safety aviation, these are standard.  Ive learned a tremendous amount just reading the reports.   Then  being able to actually debrief them in person with people who know the back stories is amazing.   There is a high profile crash that occurred with the New Mex State Police where the AOPA did a great computer recreation.   Then on the LE side, Ive been to briefings where they went in to the culture of the NMSP aviation command that was essentially "We paid a lot of money for that helicopter....get your butt in it and go fly"  Non-pilot agency commanders had created an environment where "God help you if you turn down a mission."  I used to be able to find the video online, but I think now you have to be an AOPA member to watch it. 

A second LE aviation crash that is often discussed is the AK State Troopers crash  https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/05/13/why-are-we-surprised/   

Although these are helicopters, the issues that arise are the same regardless of air frame.  External pressures, get-thereitis, lack of training, lack of currency.  Flying in unfamiliar terrain, extreme focus on accomplishing the mission, etc. 

In the case of this CAP accident, were there any regulations or practices that were changed or any changes to the Form 5 or Form 91 check rides?  If you have been flying long enough, been working in high stress professions where people can actually get killed or injured if you make a mistake, every one of us can relay stories where we got lucky.  I have several myself...... Yeah.... I said several.  Debriefs and discussions can be done professionally without embarrassment or ridicule of the people who died or injured or at the very least embarrassed.  Attack the problem, not the person.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2017, 11:59:26 AM »

Debriefs and discussions can be done professionally without embarrassment or ridicule of the people who died or injured or at the very least embarrassed.  Attack the problem, not the person.

That's how it's supposed to work, though the idea is lost on many Safety officers and trainers in CAP.
Instead of discussing real-world / actual problems, the newsletters and monthly briefings are full of
discussions about things like Turkey Fryer safety and winter driving.

I know as a motorcycle instructor I had more then a few "pants-ruining events" and "almosts" that
were primarily the result of a moment's distraction or a "Goode Idea" that wasn't.  Those were turned into
"lessons learned" and "never do that agains".

Interestingly, the program I taught for was just as "liability-averse" as CAP is, however it had a much higher
visibility, and a generally smaller scope in regards to oversight, so it was much easier to remediate issues
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2017, 12:50:41 PM »

What Ive found is that the attacks tend to go more towards the supervisors and can quickly become a discussion on "Well, LTC Smith should have never been the Air Ops Director because hes an idiot...."  Debriefs have to have pretty clearly defined goals.  They cant just be a free-for-all where by the end of it, people are talking about LTC Smith having an affair with LT Jones when the debrief was about a CAP Cessna 182 sliding off the runway in icing conditions and neither Smith or Jones were even in the airplane.

Seeing as how CAP is part time, and the training and currency is often minimal at best in regards to aviation, the organization should be almost obsessed with debriefing incidents for their learning value.

Of course, timing.  If there is pending litigation, criminal charges, etc ....  you may not even be able to discuss the event.   CAP of course isnt all about aviation, but it is definitely the most risk generating aspect of CAP.   And with the minimal qualifications required to become a CAP pilot, things can deteriorate rapidly beyond the skill level of a lot of pilots.

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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2017, 01:41:30 PM »

Seeing as how CAP is part time, and the training and currency is often minimal at best in regards to aviation, the organization should be almost obsessed with debriefing incidents for their learning value.

I've never understood why they aren't - rather then the "byte killer of the month", I have my SEs doing briefings on 78s.
There's plenty of them and they can be applied to the audience appropriately.

1 - What happened?
2 - How did they get there?
3 - How can we avoid it in the future.

Makes for a good briefing, keeps people engaged, doesn't burn an evening on irrelevant or mis-targeted subjects.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2017, 03:29:01 PM »

Seeing as how CAP is part time, and the training and currency is often minimal at best in regards to aviation, the organization should be almost obsessed with debriefing incidents for their learning value.

I've never understood why they aren't - rather then the "byte killer of the month", I have my SEs doing briefings on 78s.
There's plenty of them and they can be applied to the audience appropriately.

1 - What happened?
2 - How did they get there?
3 - How can we avoid it in the future.

Makes for a good briefing, keeps people engaged, doesn't burn an evening on irrelevant or mis-targeted subjects.


The instructor definitely needs to lay the ground rules.  No unrelated comments... no blurting out witty one liners because you want to be the class clown, and absolutely come in prepared and set a time limit and if needed, a follow up "to be continued"
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 479

« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2017, 03:56:37 PM »

This has developed into a very useful discussion.

"Attack the Problem... not the Person" is nearly always the best approach.  However, sometimes I've observed an oblique and general discussion in a squadron safety conversation that an individual can easily see might "apply" to their  past behavior is sometimes helpful in moving good people past the "this is just another [ho hum] safety discussion..." to obtain a positive change in actions.  It also reinforces, in a non-threatening way, situations discussed by self or commander in one-on-one conversations.

In any case, I've found that aviation related examples are very well received in CAP safety discussions.  It's easy to make them relevant, interesting, and with broader application.  In the units I've been associated with I've noticed that a majority of Cadets see themselves in the cockpit as adults.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2017, 04:01:53 PM »

Ive had far better safety discussions with cadets who want to be pilots than Ive ever had with Seniors who are pilots  :)
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 479

« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2017, 02:56:20 PM »

Ive had far better safety discussions with cadets who want to be pilots than Ive ever had with Seniors who are pilots  :)

Too often true.  :(   In a lot of ways I think many pilots share the unfortunate very high opinion of self that occurs among some medical and legal professionals.  ...Not to point fingers, despite characterizations of a well known and very fine aircraft known as the "forked tail doctor (could easily be 'attorney') killer".  IMHO, a little humility improves longevity.   ;)
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2017, 03:25:21 PM »

What is a better dynamic to watch with pilots is to watch them interact with non-pilots or lesser qualified pilots, compared to that same pilot interacting with a pilot they know is higher on the food chain.  Same with any profession, I know.   You can learn a lot about someone  :o
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Remembering brave men
 


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