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Cicero
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Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« on: November 24, 2017, 06:11:21 PM »

3 Killed in Crash of Search Plane : Aviation: Civil Air Patrol unit went down Saturday while looking for a small aircraft reported missing in Mt. Baldy area Dec. 31.
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-16/news/mn-20649_1_volunteer-civil-air-patrol

https://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.com/post/cessna-182b-n2569g-site-photos-6543552?trail=

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/defff66f9009586cc176643f20b7c43c.pdf

Just a reminder that what we do matters and that sometimes the danger becomes very real. Thanks to everyone who volunteers.
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PHall
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 07:29:14 PM »

Any particular reason you brought this up? 
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 08:39:35 PM »

Any particular reason you brought this up?
+

Nope. Ran across the story and saw brave men who do what many in the Patrol do often and felt like a post made sense. Is there some reason you ask? Am I breaking the TOS or some unwritten rule?
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etodd
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Posts: 865

« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 10:07:40 PM »

1995 .... 22 years ago. Not topical. Would have been discussed ad nausem when it happened. No need to rehash it all now.

JMHO ....
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MS - MO - AP - MP
HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 43
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 07:03:58 AM »

I heartily disagree with etodd and PHall. I haven't looked into this particular accident, but speaking generally, we should not discourage examination of old events. In many cases, even events long past can still offer lessons learned that are pertinent to current operations. For instance, the Forrestal fire during Vietnam is still used in Ordnance safety training today.

When we stop examining past incidents and learning from them we forget the lessons learned from them; we then eventually repeat them. As a Marine Corps historian, I regularly teach about events from as far back as WWI in order to apply them to current warfare in environments such as The Basic School and Annapolis. It is the reason why the study of history is important.

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!

I find it disturbing that some of my fellow CAP Officers should have such myopic viewpoints as to denigrate the efforts of a fellow Officer to remember our fallen. Shame on you, sirs. Volunteer Service in it's fullest measure, Respect for those who have gone before you, Excellence in all we do by constantly learning and improving our methodology. You who have tried to shut down Cicero have failed to lead by example in not just one, but three of our core values.
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Semper Fidelis
Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2017, 11:02:00 AM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents? 
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Cicero
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Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 12:15:40 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?
Quote
The NTSB's findings for the cause of the crash was, "the pilot's loss of aircraft control and subsequent inadvertent stall/spin following an encounter with a localized mountain wave condition and turbulence while conducting a search mission in close proximity to mountainous terrain".
Our pilots just finished a reminder/refresher course on mountain flying that makes this sentence quite topical and germane, imho.
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Cicero
Forum Regular

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Unit: TBKS

« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 01:18:19 PM »

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!
I thought that odd but not everyone sees the world the way I do. I agree with your point of view entirely, thank you for speaking up.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,884

« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2017, 01:30:06 PM »

I heartily disagree with etodd and PHall. I haven't looked into this particular accident, but speaking generally, we should not discourage examination of old events. In many cases, even events long past can still offer lessons learned that are pertinent to current operations. For instance, the Forrestal fire during Vietnam is still used in Ordnance safety training today.

When we stop examining past incidents and learning from them we forget the lessons learned from them; we then eventually repeat them. As a Marine Corps historian, I regularly teach about events from as far back as WWI in order to apply them to current warfare in environments such as The Basic School and Annapolis. It is the reason why the study of history is important.

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!

I find it disturbing that some of my fellow CAP Officers should have such myopic viewpoints as to denigrate the efforts of a fellow Officer to remember our fallen. Shame on you, sirs. Volunteer Service in it's fullest measure, Respect for those who have gone before you, Excellence in all we do by constantly learning and improving our methodology. You who have tried to shut down Cicero have failed to lead by example in not just one, but three of our core values.

This mission was being conducted out of my squadron headquarters and I was there when they realized that they had gone down.
Not the best memory to bring up during the holidays.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2017, 02:55:50 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,053

« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2017, 03:45:29 PM »

I know that this tragic accident has been the topic of discussion at Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges in regards to the role of the Chaplain at a Mission Base.   The late Ch, Lt Col Dan Dyer was the mission chaplain for this particular mission.   When the bodies of our fallen comrades were retrieved and returned to the mission base, Chaplain Dyer had assembled a honor guard to meet the rescue/recovery crews and escort our fallen comrades to the vehicles that would carry them away from the airport.  This event made CAP aware of the need for members of the Chaplain Corps and CAP to receive training in Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM).  The lessons learned from this tragedy continue to impact the culture of CAP safety, our aircrews, our mission support teams and the CAP Chaplain Corps.
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2017, 05:26:44 PM »

This mission was being conducted out of my squadron headquarters and I was there when they realized that they had gone down.
Not the best memory to bring up during the holidays.
My apologies for causing you pain at this time of year, I assure you it was inadvertent. My intent was to honor the memory of your fallen comrades and thank all who do what they do, especially at this time of year. They flew in dangerous weather into dangerous terrain in selfless service. They define the best of mankind, in my humble opinion.

As I train to do what they did, I try to learn from them and many others. Again, I am truly sorry for your loss and pain.
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HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 43
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2017, 06:45:19 PM »

I heartily disagree with etodd and PHall. I haven't looked into this particular accident, but speaking generally, we should not discourage examination of old events. In many cases, even events long past can still offer lessons learned that are pertinent to current operations. For instance, the Forrestal fire during Vietnam is still used in Ordnance safety training today.

When we stop examining past incidents and learning from them we forget the lessons learned from them; we then eventually repeat them. As a Marine Corps historian, I regularly teach about events from as far back as WWI in order to apply them to current warfare in environments such as The Basic School and Annapolis. It is the reason why the study of history is important.

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!

I find it disturbing that some of my fellow CAP Officers should have such myopic viewpoints as to denigrate the efforts of a fellow Officer to remember our fallen. Shame on you, sirs. Volunteer Service in it's fullest measure, Respect for those who have gone before you, Excellence in all we do by constantly learning and improving our methodology. You who have tried to shut down Cicero have failed to lead by example in not just one, but three of our core values.

This mission was being conducted out of my squadron headquarters and I was there when they realized that they had gone down.
Not the best memory to bring up during the holidays.

Sir, you have my most humble apologies. I, too, had no way of knowing that such a difficult memory caused your reaction to the post. I echo the sentiments of Cicero in his last post. Your fallen comrades defined the best of mankind. I have lost more friends and brothers between military and Law Enforcement service than I care to recount. We are forever diminished by the loss of such men and women. I know that you also are a long service military officer, and I apologise for doubting the mindset of such a man. You deserve better than that from a fellow CAP Officer and fellow Veteran. Mea culpa, sir.
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Semper Fidelis
Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2017, 06:45:58 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.

Are you talking about the one where the deputy allows the driver to go back to his vehicle to get his Mini 14 and then allows him to actually load it while he's yelling "sir put the gun down!"
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stillamarine
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2017, 09:26:57 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.

Are you talking about the one where the deputy allows the driver to go back to his vehicle to get his Mini 14 and then allows him to actually load it while he's yelling "sir put the gun down!"

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2017, 09:46:13 PM »

I know that this tragic accident has been the topic of discussion at Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges in regards to the role of the Chaplain at a Mission Base.   The late Ch, Lt Col Dan Dyer was the mission chaplain for this particular mission.   When the bodies of our fallen comrades were retrieved and returned to the mission base, Chaplain Dyer had assembled a honor guard to meet the rescue/recovery crews and escort our fallen comrades to the vehicles that would carry them away from the airport.  This event made CAP aware of the need for members of the Chaplain Corps and CAP to receive training in Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM).  The lessons learned from this tragedy continue to impact the culture of CAP safety, our aircrews, our mission support teams and the CAP Chaplain Corps.
An essential part of the Civil Air Patrol team, thanks for being part of the Chaplain Corps.
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Cicero
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Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2017, 09:56:07 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.

Are you talking about the one where the deputy allows the driver to go back to his vehicle to get his Mini 14 and then allows him to actually load it while he's yelling "sir put the gun down!"

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kyle_Dinkheller
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abdsp51
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 10:13:44 PM »

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine

There was so much more to that.  I recall seeing it on my own and shaking my head about it.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2017, 10:47:45 PM »

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine

There was so much more to that.  I recall seeing it on my own and shaking my head about it.

As a trainer I'm quite aware of the details. I've actually spoken with coworkers and family of Kyle's.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 131
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2017, 11:14:59 PM »

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/vietnam-vet-ptsd-set-be-first-man-executed-2015
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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2017, 11:47:20 AM »

Critical Incident case studies are essential to insuring peoples lives are not lost in vain.  An agency I worked for, each year at what we called "Block Training" would take a critical incident and completely debrief it.  In the case of LE, it was usually a violent encounter.  Everyone had to attend.  In a couple of the cases, there would be times where you could leave the class because autopsy photos or other grisly details would be discussed.  So if you were a friend, or didn't really want to hear about the autopsy conducted on the body of the deputy you used to have lunch with every night for 5 years with, you could leave during that portion.  You could also request to be exempt from it for any other reason, they would usually and they would allow it, but most people stayed.  The idea was to learn, not give someone nightmares for another year.

In the case of aviation, I make it a point to review NTSB reports on the makes and models of aircraft that I fly.  They all have value, but I also dont have all day to sit and read them all, so I pick the air frames that apply to me.   In the world of public safety aviation, these are standard.  Ive learned a tremendous amount just reading the reports.   Then  being able to actually debrief them in person with people who know the back stories is amazing.   There is a high profile crash that occurred with the New Mex State Police where the AOPA did a great computer recreation.   Then on the LE side, Ive been to briefings where they went in to the culture of the NMSP aviation command that was essentially "We paid a lot of money for that helicopter....get your butt in it and go fly"  Non-pilot agency commanders had created an environment where "God help you if you turn down a mission."  I used to be able to find the video online, but I think now you have to be an AOPA member to watch it. 

A second LE aviation crash that is often discussed is the AK State Troopers crash  https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/05/13/why-are-we-surprised/   

Although these are helicopters, the issues that arise are the same regardless of air frame.  External pressures, get-thereitis, lack of training, lack of currency.  Flying in unfamiliar terrain, extreme focus on accomplishing the mission, etc. 

In the case of this CAP accident, were there any regulations or practices that were changed or any changes to the Form 5 or Form 91 check rides?  If you have been flying long enough, been working in high stress professions where people can actually get killed or injured if you make a mistake, every one of us can relay stories where we got lucky.  I have several myself...... Yeah.... I said several.  Debriefs and discussions can be done professionally without embarrassment or ridicule of the people who died or injured or at the very least embarrassed.  Attack the problem, not the person.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2017, 11:59:26 AM »

Debriefs and discussions can be done professionally without embarrassment or ridicule of the people who died or injured or at the very least embarrassed.  Attack the problem, not the person.

That's how it's supposed to work, though the idea is lost on many Safety officers and trainers in CAP.
Instead of discussing real-world / actual problems, the newsletters and monthly briefings are full of
discussions about things like Turkey Fryer safety and winter driving.

I know as a motorcycle instructor I had more then a few "pants-ruining events" and "almosts" that
were primarily the result of a moment's distraction or a "Goode Idea" that wasn't.  Those were turned into
"lessons learned" and "never do that agains".

Interestingly, the program I taught for was just as "liability-averse" as CAP is, however it had a much higher
visibility, and a generally smaller scope in regards to oversight, so it was much easier to remediate issues
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Flying Pig
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2017, 12:50:41 PM »

What Ive found is that the attacks tend to go more towards the supervisors and can quickly become a discussion on "Well, LTC Smith should have never been the Air Ops Director because hes an idiot...."  Debriefs have to have pretty clearly defined goals.  They cant just be a free-for-all where by the end of it, people are talking about LTC Smith having an affair with LT Jones when the debrief was about a CAP Cessna 182 sliding off the runway in icing conditions and neither Smith or Jones were even in the airplane.

Seeing as how CAP is part time, and the training and currency is often minimal at best in regards to aviation, the organization should be almost obsessed with debriefing incidents for their learning value.

Of course, timing.  If there is pending litigation, criminal charges, etc ....  you may not even be able to discuss the event.   CAP of course isnt all about aviation, but it is definitely the most risk generating aspect of CAP.   And with the minimal qualifications required to become a CAP pilot, things can deteriorate rapidly beyond the skill level of a lot of pilots.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2017, 01:41:30 PM »

Seeing as how CAP is part time, and the training and currency is often minimal at best in regards to aviation, the organization should be almost obsessed with debriefing incidents for their learning value.

I've never understood why they aren't - rather then the "byte killer of the month", I have my SEs doing briefings on 78s.
There's plenty of them and they can be applied to the audience appropriately.

1 - What happened?
2 - How did they get there?
3 - How can we avoid it in the future.

Makes for a good briefing, keeps people engaged, doesn't burn an evening on irrelevant or mis-targeted subjects.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2017, 03:29:01 PM »

Seeing as how CAP is part time, and the training and currency is often minimal at best in regards to aviation, the organization should be almost obsessed with debriefing incidents for their learning value.

I've never understood why they aren't - rather then the "byte killer of the month", I have my SEs doing briefings on 78s.
There's plenty of them and they can be applied to the audience appropriately.

1 - What happened?
2 - How did they get there?
3 - How can we avoid it in the future.

Makes for a good briefing, keeps people engaged, doesn't burn an evening on irrelevant or mis-targeted subjects.


The instructor definitely needs to lay the ground rules.  No unrelated comments... no blurting out witty one liners because you want to be the class clown, and absolutely come in prepared and set a time limit and if needed, a follow up "to be continued"
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 479

« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2017, 03:56:37 PM »

This has developed into a very useful discussion.

"Attack the Problem... not the Person" is nearly always the best approach.  However, sometimes I've observed an oblique and general discussion in a squadron safety conversation that an individual can easily see might "apply" to their  past behavior is sometimes helpful in moving good people past the "this is just another [ho hum] safety discussion..." to obtain a positive change in actions.  It also reinforces, in a non-threatening way, situations discussed by self or commander in one-on-one conversations.

In any case, I've found that aviation related examples are very well received in CAP safety discussions.  It's easy to make them relevant, interesting, and with broader application.  In the units I've been associated with I've noticed that a majority of Cadets see themselves in the cockpit as adults.
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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,041

« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2017, 04:01:53 PM »

Ive had far better safety discussions with cadets who want to be pilots than Ive ever had with Seniors who are pilots  :)
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 479

« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2017, 02:56:20 PM »

Ive had far better safety discussions with cadets who want to be pilots than Ive ever had with Seniors who are pilots  :)

Too often true.  :(   In a lot of ways I think many pilots share the unfortunate very high opinion of self that occurs among some medical and legal professionals.  ...Not to point fingers, despite characterizations of a well known and very fine aircraft known as the "forked tail doctor (could easily be 'attorney') killer".  IMHO, a little humility improves longevity.   ;)
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2017, 03:25:21 PM »

What is a better dynamic to watch with pilots is to watch them interact with non-pilots or lesser qualified pilots, compared to that same pilot interacting with a pilot they know is higher on the food chain.  Same with any profession, I know.   You can learn a lot about someone  :o
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