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December 14, 2017, 11:03:44 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Remembering brave men
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Author Topic: Remembering brave men  (Read 1936 times)
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« on: November 24, 2017, 06:11:21 PM »

3 Killed in Crash of Search Plane : Aviation: Civil Air Patrol unit went down Saturday while looking for a small aircraft reported missing in Mt. Baldy area Dec. 31.
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-16/news/mn-20649_1_volunteer-civil-air-patrol

https://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.com/post/cessna-182b-n2569g-site-photos-6543552?trail=

http://history.cap.gov/files/original/defff66f9009586cc176643f20b7c43c.pdf

Just a reminder that what we do matters and that sometimes the danger becomes very real. Thanks to everyone who volunteers.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,877

« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 07:29:14 PM »

Any particular reason you brought this up? 
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 08:39:35 PM »

Any particular reason you brought this up?
+

Nope. Ran across the story and saw brave men who do what many in the Patrol do often and felt like a post made sense. Is there some reason you ask? Am I breaking the TOS or some unwritten rule?
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 10:07:40 PM »

1995 .... 22 years ago. Not topical. Would have been discussed ad nausem when it happened. No need to rehash it all now.

JMHO ....
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MS - MO - AP - MP
HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 43
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 07:03:58 AM »

I heartily disagree with etodd and PHall. I haven't looked into this particular accident, but speaking generally, we should not discourage examination of old events. In many cases, even events long past can still offer lessons learned that are pertinent to current operations. For instance, the Forrestal fire during Vietnam is still used in Ordnance safety training today.

When we stop examining past incidents and learning from them we forget the lessons learned from them; we then eventually repeat them. As a Marine Corps historian, I regularly teach about events from as far back as WWI in order to apply them to current warfare in environments such as The Basic School and Annapolis. It is the reason why the study of history is important.

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!

I find it disturbing that some of my fellow CAP Officers should have such myopic viewpoints as to denigrate the efforts of a fellow Officer to remember our fallen. Shame on you, sirs. Volunteer Service in it's fullest measure, Respect for those who have gone before you, Excellence in all we do by constantly learning and improving our methodology. You who have tried to shut down Cicero have failed to lead by example in not just one, but three of our core values.
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Semper Fidelis
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2017, 11:02:00 AM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents? 
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 12:15:40 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?
Quote
The NTSB's findings for the cause of the crash was, "the pilot's loss of aircraft control and subsequent inadvertent stall/spin following an encounter with a localized mountain wave condition and turbulence while conducting a search mission in close proximity to mountainous terrain".
Our pilots just finished a reminder/refresher course on mountain flying that makes this sentence quite topical and germane, imho.
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 01:18:19 PM »

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!
I thought that odd but not everyone sees the world the way I do. I agree with your point of view entirely, thank you for speaking up.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,877

« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2017, 01:30:06 PM »

I heartily disagree with etodd and PHall. I haven't looked into this particular accident, but speaking generally, we should not discourage examination of old events. In many cases, even events long past can still offer lessons learned that are pertinent to current operations. For instance, the Forrestal fire during Vietnam is still used in Ordnance safety training today.

When we stop examining past incidents and learning from them we forget the lessons learned from them; we then eventually repeat them. As a Marine Corps historian, I regularly teach about events from as far back as WWI in order to apply them to current warfare in environments such as The Basic School and Annapolis. It is the reason why the study of history is important.

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!

I find it disturbing that some of my fellow CAP Officers should have such myopic viewpoints as to denigrate the efforts of a fellow Officer to remember our fallen. Shame on you, sirs. Volunteer Service in it's fullest measure, Respect for those who have gone before you, Excellence in all we do by constantly learning and improving our methodology. You who have tried to shut down Cicero have failed to lead by example in not just one, but three of our core values.

This mission was being conducted out of my squadron headquarters and I was there when they realized that they had gone down.
Not the best memory to bring up during the holidays.
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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 812
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2017, 02:55:50 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,053

« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2017, 03:45:29 PM »

I know that this tragic accident has been the topic of discussion at Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges in regards to the role of the Chaplain at a Mission Base.   The late Ch, Lt Col Dan Dyer was the mission chaplain for this particular mission.   When the bodies of our fallen comrades were retrieved and returned to the mission base, Chaplain Dyer had assembled a honor guard to meet the rescue/recovery crews and escort our fallen comrades to the vehicles that would carry them away from the airport.  This event made CAP aware of the need for members of the Chaplain Corps and CAP to receive training in Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM).  The lessons learned from this tragedy continue to impact the culture of CAP safety, our aircrews, our mission support teams and the CAP Chaplain Corps.
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2017, 05:26:44 PM »

This mission was being conducted out of my squadron headquarters and I was there when they realized that they had gone down.
Not the best memory to bring up during the holidays.
My apologies for causing you pain at this time of year, I assure you it was inadvertent. My intent was to honor the memory of your fallen comrades and thank all who do what they do, especially at this time of year. They flew in dangerous weather into dangerous terrain in selfless service. They define the best of mankind, in my humble opinion.

As I train to do what they did, I try to learn from them and many others. Again, I am truly sorry for your loss and pain.
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HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 43
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2017, 06:45:19 PM »

I heartily disagree with etodd and PHall. I haven't looked into this particular accident, but speaking generally, we should not discourage examination of old events. In many cases, even events long past can still offer lessons learned that are pertinent to current operations. For instance, the Forrestal fire during Vietnam is still used in Ordnance safety training today.

When we stop examining past incidents and learning from them we forget the lessons learned from them; we then eventually repeat them. As a Marine Corps historian, I regularly teach about events from as far back as WWI in order to apply them to current warfare in environments such as The Basic School and Annapolis. It is the reason why the study of history is important.

Apart from the teachable aspects of such study, it is also wrong to discourage remembrance of those who gave their lives in CAP service. Let us never forget who came before us, but let us instead hold their memories hallowed and pass on the ideals of such selfless service!

I find it disturbing that some of my fellow CAP Officers should have such myopic viewpoints as to denigrate the efforts of a fellow Officer to remember our fallen. Shame on you, sirs. Volunteer Service in it's fullest measure, Respect for those who have gone before you, Excellence in all we do by constantly learning and improving our methodology. You who have tried to shut down Cicero have failed to lead by example in not just one, but three of our core values.

This mission was being conducted out of my squadron headquarters and I was there when they realized that they had gone down.
Not the best memory to bring up during the holidays.

Sir, you have my most humble apologies. I, too, had no way of knowing that such a difficult memory caused your reaction to the post. I echo the sentiments of Cicero in his last post. Your fallen comrades defined the best of mankind. I have lost more friends and brothers between military and Law Enforcement service than I care to recount. We are forever diminished by the loss of such men and women. I know that you also are a long service military officer, and I apologise for doubting the mindset of such a man. You deserve better than that from a fellow CAP Officer and fellow Veteran. Mea culpa, sir.
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Semper Fidelis
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2017, 06:45:58 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.

Are you talking about the one where the deputy allows the driver to go back to his vehicle to get his Mini 14 and then allows him to actually load it while he's yelling "sir put the gun down!"
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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 812
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2017, 09:26:57 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.

Are you talking about the one where the deputy allows the driver to go back to his vehicle to get his Mini 14 and then allows him to actually load it while he's yelling "sir put the gun down!"

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2017, 09:46:13 PM »

I know that this tragic accident has been the topic of discussion at Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges in regards to the role of the Chaplain at a Mission Base.   The late Ch, Lt Col Dan Dyer was the mission chaplain for this particular mission.   When the bodies of our fallen comrades were retrieved and returned to the mission base, Chaplain Dyer had assembled a honor guard to meet the rescue/recovery crews and escort our fallen comrades to the vehicles that would carry them away from the airport.  This event made CAP aware of the need for members of the Chaplain Corps and CAP to receive training in Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM).  The lessons learned from this tragedy continue to impact the culture of CAP safety, our aircrews, our mission support teams and the CAP Chaplain Corps.
An essential part of the Civil Air Patrol team, thanks for being part of the Chaplain Corps.
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2017, 09:56:07 PM »

Hmmmm.... No need to rehash?  Not topical?  I fly in public safety aviation for a living and we are continually "rehashing" past accidents.  So is there a time limit for when we no longer mention these incidents?

I agree. There is a video that every law enforcement officer has seen dozens of times. It is a constant reminder of many tactical points. January will make the event 20 years old. I expect that video to be shown for 20 years to come.

Are you talking about the one where the deputy allows the driver to go back to his vehicle to get his Mini 14 and then allows him to actually load it while he's yelling "sir put the gun down!"

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kyle_Dinkheller
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 10:13:44 PM »

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine

There was so much more to that.  I recall seeing it on my own and shaking my head about it.
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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 812
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2017, 10:47:45 PM »

Yup. See. I didn't even have to say anything else. And it was actually an M1 Carbine

There was so much more to that.  I recall seeing it on my own and shaking my head about it.

As a trainer I'm quite aware of the details. I've actually spoken with coworkers and family of Kyle's.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2017, 11:14:59 PM »

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/vietnam-vet-ptsd-set-be-first-man-executed-2015
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Remembering brave men
 


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