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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Review Board questions
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Cadetter
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2017, 11:23:10 PM »

I think I see what you're saying, but I believe it is a non-issue in my case. I work with the CDC in pre-discussion (often I ask the first sergeant for input if I don't know the cadet very well - as he isn't yet a cadet officer he shouldn't be on boards), and although I normally start off the board, there's never any question that the CC is in charge. All board members provide feedback and When I send the form 50, it includes the input of all board members. We have a small squadron, and from frequent communications with my commanders it's generally quite obvious what the promotion decisions and feedback will be.

Feedback sessions are indeed important - as an airman and junior NCO many of mine were poorly executed, so I never attempt to advise from my opinions alone.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2017, 12:51:43 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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Cadetter
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2017, 01:10:05 PM »

I'm not sure, as the CC is the promotion authority (unless the regs mean CDC when 'Commander' is used). Since we're communicating and the only difference is who types the form 50, it shouldn't matter one way or another, especially when the C/CC is directed to type it and recommend to the CC (based on the discussion with the CDC prior to writing it). During the review session we have cadets report in to the CC or CDC, never the C/CC...
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PHall
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2017, 03:24:35 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2017, 03:39:16 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).

Promo boards are currently required.

CAPR 52-16:
"d. Promotion Boards. Effective 1 September 2014, units will hold promotion boards to help the
commander decide if cadets are ready to accept the increased responsibilities that come with their
promotions. At a minimum, the board meets without the cadet present and reviews the cadet’s personnel
file to ensure he or she is qualified for promotion. At least once per phase, commanders will have the cadet
meet with the board in person for a mentoring discussion. When in-person boards are conducted, they will
operate according to CAPP 52-15, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7, and must meet the following criteria:"


They appear to be eliminated entirely in the upcoming CP revision, in favor of "Feedback Meetings", which
are not a ""promotion board".

CAPR 60-1 (eff Feb 2018)
"5.7.2. Feedback Meetings. At least once per phase, commanders will ensure the cadet participates in
a feedback meeting, which is a mentoring opportunity and discussion about the cadet’s performance in
the Cadet Program. Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7,
and must meet the following criteria:
• A completed CAPF 60-90 series form must serve as the basis for discussion.
• Feedback meetings will not re-test cadets on material they already passed through achievement
tests.
• Commanders must apply local promotion practices consistently, with all similarly-situated cadets
subject to the same process."


I read this as "assumed promotable absent a justification", with promotion boards no longer required
for each achievement / milestone.  CC's can choose to do a 60-90 for each promotion, but those who
don't would not have a board to refer to any more for cadets.

The term "promotion board" does not seem to appear at all within 60-1.

Cadet may now explicitly evaluate subordinates:
"5.7.1. Leadership Feedback. Commanders must ensure each cadet receives constructive feed-back
using the CAPF 60-90 series, Cadet Leadership Feedback, at least once per phase. The CAPF 60-90 series
includes four forms – CAPF 60-91, CAPF 60-92, CAPF 60-93 and CAPF 60-94 – one for each phase in the
Cadet Program. Two forms – CAPF 60-95 and CAPF 60-96 – are tailored for encampments. Adult leaders
and cadet officers may conduct CAPF 60-90 series evaluations (cadet officers may evaluate cadets who
are junior to them in grade). Commanders may approve or disapprove the evaluation; ultimately the
commander must ensure the cadet’s progress is evaluated properly."


And of course 60-31 has a lot more detail on procedures for boards.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 03:52:51 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Cadetter
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Posts: 178

« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2017, 04:07:55 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).
...
Cadet may now explicitly evaluate subordinates:

Cadets could already explicitly evaluate subordinates per the reference in CAPR 52-16 (CAPP 52-15 2.7). CAPP 52-15 (2.7), which has identical verbiage except in form number to CAPP 60-22 (2.7), refers to leadership feedback meetings and promotion boards, but suggests the same procedure for both. I tend to think that leadership feedback meetings happen without necessarily being tied to a promotion...

In my squadron, we have 'in person' promotion boards for milestones and a few other promotions, and the 'board meets without cadet present' (which should not, IMO, be called a promotion board) for all others. Of course, since 52-16 doesn't specify who needs to be on the board, the board meeting without the cadet present can consist one member (the CC saying ye or nay).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 04:15:21 PM »

(which should not, IMO, be called a promotion board)

Why?  By far the majority of promotion & merit boards in the military and civilian agencies
do not involve a door knock and an interview. 

They are usually a group of either appointed commissioners or staff officers / NCOs sitting around
with a stack of submissions, PRs, or similar and discussing the names.

There's nothing wrong with helping to prepare cadets for job interviews and the like,
but frankly, if you don't know enough about a cadet's performance to know whether
he's promotable without a board, there's a serious disconnect somewhere.

The hard-chargers and problem children always bubble up, with those at the mid-point generally
being a non-issue.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Cadetter
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Posts: 178

« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »

(which should not, IMO, be called a promotion board)

Why?  By far the majority of promotion & merit boards in the military and civilian agencies
do not involve a door knock and an interview. 

They are usually a group of either appointed commissioners or staff officers / NCOs sitting around
with a stack of submissions, PRs, or similar and discussing the names.

There's nothing wrong with helping to prepare cadets for job interviews and the like,
but frankly, if you don't know enough about a cadet's performance to know whether
he's promotable without a board, there's a serious disconnect somewhere.

The hard-chargers and problem children always bubble up, with those at the mid-point generally
being a non-issue.

What exactly is a promotion board? Except in CAPR 52-16, I've only ever heard of a promotion board coinciding with a leadership feedback meeting; that's how my leaders have always used it. Since that's the definition I'm familiar with, naturally a board meeting without a cadet present doesn't sound like a board. I have zero experience with military promotions and haven't heard of promotion boards in other contexts.

If you're taking issue with whether I think promotability is determined from a board, please read my earlier posts where I indicate it isn't. In person boards are leadership feedback meetings (since they center around CAPF 50s), and in order to give feedback on a cadet's performance, the evaluator(s) must already know said cadet's performance (and hence, whether they are promotable).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2017, 04:46:43 PM »

What exactly is a promotion board? Except in CAPR 52-16, I've only ever heard of a promotion board coinciding with a leadership feedback meeting; that's how my leaders have always used it. Since that's the definition I'm familiar with, naturally a board meeting without a cadet present doesn't sound like a board. I have zero experience with military promotions and haven't heard of promotion boards in other contexts.

People appointed to discuss and decide whether (in this case), a cadet is ready for promotion.  There's no harm nor foul in
not knowing this, you're learning too.  Depending on a given board's authority, some have the final say, and some make recommendations
to a higher authority or another board or committee.  A lot of merit and promo boards have the final and only say in
civilian life, many promo boards in military, as well as those in CAP, make recommendations which the final authority (i.e. the command(s))
may accept or ignore.  Ignoring a promo board recommendation may lead to later "we told you" issues", though that's
not generally a problem in CAP, since grade confers no authority or remuneration.

If you're taking issue with whether I think promotability is determined from a board, please read my earlier posts where I indicate it isn't.In person boards are leadership feedback meetings (since they center around CAPF 50s), and in order to give feedback on a cadet's performance, the evaluator(s) must already know said cadet's performance (and hence, whether they are promotable).

I wasn't, but now maybe I am.  When does the required promotion board discuss and make their recommendation?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 04:50:28 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Cadetter
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Posts: 178

« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2017, 05:03:01 PM »

Before the review meeting, in my squadron usually in the preceding week. It's necessary to discuss before the board, since the board should start off by stating the promotion decision...
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stillamarine
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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2017, 07:00:47 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).

Got ya. I know my last squadron the cadet promotion board was chaired by the CDC and the Senior promotion board was chaired by the CDS. In theory..........
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PHall
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« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2017, 08:41:21 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).

Got ya. I know my last squadron the cadet promotion board was chaired by the CDC and the Senior promotion board was chaired by the CDS. In theory..........

In my squadron we usually have the CDC, The Cadet Commander, Their Flight Commander and the Squadron Commander if they want to sit in on it.
But it can vary depending on who's available that night.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 12:25:30 AM »

What exactly is a promotion board?

In a pure military context, it's a group of members who review individual service records to determine whether to promote, or not. My record was before the Navy Chief's board a few times to determine my worthiness. I was at my duty station, and the record review was at the Navy Bureau of Personnel.b
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Dave Bowles
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Cadetter
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2017, 11:24:50 AM »

Thanks, Eclipse and SarDragon. Learn something new every day :)
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 01:55:03 PM »

Yes, but it's the promotion board that recommends, or does not, a promotion, not an
individual cadet (or senior member).

Assuming you are on that board, you are one voice in the mix.  If you aren't on that board,
you can have an opinion, but it may not even be considered.

Also, the evaluator is supposed to be a senior member, or if it's a cadet, that cadet is to work under a
senior members supervision, not simply prepare the form themselves and hand it to the CC.

There are very good, well thought-out reasoning behind this, not the least of which is that
not only are cadets perishable in regards to time, but cadets at all levels are still learning,
by design, and an improperly prepared or executed Leadership conference could well
stifle a cadets motivation permanently.

Right. If there is a board held, it should be a vote. The chairperson should not go "Okay, but I disagree with everyone here." He/she should be facilitating the board, not deciding for it.

When I advise my Commander on promotions, I am doing so as the voice of those that were consulted in the review process. "This is what the staff suggests."

I think I see what you're saying, but I believe it is a non-issue in my case. I work with the CDC in pre-discussion (often I ask the first sergeant for input if I don't know the cadet very well - as he isn't yet a cadet officer he shouldn't be on boards), and although I normally start off the board, there's never any question that the CC is in charge.

This is a unit SOP, and not a general practice that I know of.

There is no reason I see that a First Sergeant wouldn't be included in the discussion on a C/SSgt board, or any other senior C/NCO for that matter. I wouldn't advise having a C/MSgt on a C/2d Lt board, but I see no issue with having a senior cadet non-commissioned officer as part of the review discussion for junior cadets.

Really, your First Sergeant should have a somewhat decent indication of that cadet's skills in drill, mentorship, discipline, uniformity, etc. To say you're going to consult him but then say his opinion won't be considered makes no sense to me.

Is there something here I'm not getting?
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Cadetter
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 03:07:29 PM »

Well, the reg says cadet officers can evaluate cadets junior in grade. I see no issue with a First Sergeant on boards aside from it. I don't think he's supposed to be on boards because of the letter of the law, but happily my CDC disagrees, and hence the 1st Sgt is on every board (except officers').
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2017, 09:16:03 PM »

Well, the reg says cadet officers can evaluate cadets junior in grade. I see no issue with a First Sergeant on boards aside from it. I don't think he's supposed to be on boards because of the letter of the law, but happily my CDC disagrees, and hence the 1st Sgt is on every board (except officers').

There is no "letter of the law" to that. The regulations do not state who can or cannot be on a board. It does, however, state who should not be on a board, with an emphasis on family members (e.g., if the CDC is the cadet's parent, then the CDC should not sit in on the review board).

You're correct that cadet officers may evaluate a cadet using the Form 50; however, that's literally in respect to cadet officers using the Form 50 to evaluate a cadet for promotion and make that recommendation to the Commander for the final decision. Any cadet can evaluate any cadet (although best practice would always be to evaluate top-down, obviously). You can have a C/MSgt evaluate a C/SrA using a Form 50, or even an alternative form if your unit has one, under the delegation of the chain of command; it doesn't need to be used solely for a promotion. Form 50s aren't actually required for promotions, but for the mandatory once-per-phase feedback session. Review boards usually just fall in line with that, as it's a suggested part of the leadership curriculum, whereas a "feedback session" not directly linked to a promotion loses an opportunity to train and mentor in addition to reviewing a cadet for promotion.

I don't like that the R52-16 states that a board with the cadet present must be held in accordance with the Cadet Staff Handbook which is guidance; suggested practices. In fact, the handbook even suggests congratulating the cadet at the end of the board, as well as handling sustaining the cadet in grade. Unless the Commander is apart of that board, neither of those should occur.
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Fubar
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« Reply #37 on: Today at 02:39:21 AM »

Across the CAP it sounds like there is an interesting variety in where exactly the promotion board (cadet feedback session) occurs in the process. Some seem to treat it as the promotion board itself, creating a pass/fail for the cadet attempting promotion, using the CAPF 50 to document the session and provide the recommendation to the commander. Others use the feedback session and CAPF 50 to communicate to the cadet the decision of the commander and document the feedback session on the CAPF 50.

Either way, it would appear that come 1 Feb, the whole thing is moot as the new regulation makes it clear the meetings are for mentoring and not a pass/fail endeavor, as stated in Cadet Staff Handbook which per the regulation, spells out the process:

Quote from: CAPP 60-90
Put the cadet at ease so they may focus on the officers’ guidance. If using the CAPF 60-90 series form in conjunction with a promotion board, state whether the cadet will be promoted or not. Getting that question out of the way allows the cadet to focus on the feedback.

Of course having a regulation point to a pamphlet is a whole different thread of discussion, but for now it's clearly how NHQ (and the national commander who signed off on the regulation) wants the process handled.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Review Board questions
 


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