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Picy3
Recruit

Posts: 9
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« on: November 23, 2017, 05:12:13 PM »

I just last week finished all i needed to do (tests and such) for my wright brothers award, now I was told that next week we would be doing review boards, I wasn't actually expecting to pass all the tests (drill and leadership mainly) so I didn't think I would actually make it on time for the review boards but I somehow passed it all, anyways I looked up a little bit of stuff they do as I knew nothing about them and saw that they ask questions and stuff, so I'm just wondering if some of the people who have done this could tell me what to expect or how I can be prepared for it because I would really like to promote in January, mainly what they will ask me maybe or past experiences of what they have done.
 :o ???

anyways any help would be nice, thank you!
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arajca
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 07:04:20 PM »

The questions review boards ask vary greatly from unit to unit. The only constraints are:
1. No asking questions on the specific material you were just tested on.
2. Questions should be based on the CAPF 50.

Expect general leadership questions (how do you define a good leader, give an example of a good leader and why you think they are, etc), activity questions, what-are-your-goals type questions. For any more specifics, talk to cadets in your unit who have been through a review board.
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Picy3
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 08:10:13 PM »

OK thank you, I'm not usually the best at those types of questions so i guess I'll have to work on that.. especially the "what are your goals in CAP" (which i have been asked before).. i mean really my goal i had set for cap was to try my hardest to promote and get to staff sergeant by January or February, so really i dont know yet what i want to do after this.. i just really enjoy doing CAP and seeing my friends, being able to learn along side them and being able to promote is a good example of why i like it, you work hard to promote and instead of getting nothing you get more responsibility and things you can do, you can help others and that is what i really enjoy.. so yeah.. anyways ill keep that in mind.

thanks and happy thankgiving!!
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 08:33:10 PM »

As a suggestion, downplay about yourself and emphasize helping others. Or at least have the part about helping others have an equal weight.

Such as "helping others promote." "Helping others be better cadets," and the like.

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Picy3
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 09:31:57 PM »

OK, sounds good.

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 09:50:02 PM »


Duplicate post, ignore / erased.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2017, 07:20:56 PM »

Review boards are unit SOP. It's up to your unit as to how to run them. Each unit will do them just a bit differently, and some units may be very drastic with how they run a board compared to their neighbor.

It is never supposed to be a trivia challenge. If you start getting asked trivia questions (What's the rank of....; Who is the National Commander?), challenge it. "Sir/Ma'am, I would like to express that a review board is not supposed to be trivia and recycle what I have been trained on. I think this time would be better served talking about my performance and character rather than CAP general knowledge. I have already passed the written test."

This isn't an academy entrance interview. It's a cadet promotion. It should be serious, focused, and worth your time to address your performance as a senior cadet NCO, cadet in general, and your future as a cadet officer. Do you understand the difference in the roles of NCOs and officers (not titles or jobs, but the differences in planning and how you correct systemic issues)? Where do you see yourself over the next 6 months? Where would you like your junior cadets to be in those 6 months? What ideas/ways do you have to get them there?

We end every interview with "Is there anything you would like to discuss?" Sometimes we get told no, sometimes we get "Actually, Sir, there is something I'd like to ask/bring up/address." Go for it. This is your open opportunity to show maturity in your ability to discuss matters you feel are important or ask questions you have, and it is a great time to show that you're serious in how you take your "cadet career."
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Picy3
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 08:19:24 PM »

Review boards are unit SOP. It's up to your unit as to how to run them. Each unit will do them just a bit differently, and some units may be very drastic with how they run a board compared to their neighbor.

It is never supposed to be a trivia challenge. If you start getting asked trivia questions (What's the rank of....; Who is the National Commander?), challenge it. "Sir/Ma'am, I would like to express that a review board is not supposed to be trivia and recycle what I have been trained on. I think this time would be better served talking about my performance and character rather than CAP general knowledge. I have already passed the written test."

This isn't an academy entrance interview. It's a cadet promotion. It should be serious, focused, and worth your time to address your performance as a senior cadet NCO, cadet in general, and your future as a cadet officer. Do you understand the difference in the roles of NCOs and officers (not titles or jobs, but the differences in planning and how you correct systemic issues)? Where do you see yourself over the next 6 months? Where would you like your junior cadets to be in those 6 months? What ideas/ways do you have to get them there?

We end every interview with "Is there anything you would like to discuss?" Sometimes we get told no, sometimes we get "Actually, Sir, there is something I'd like to ask/bring up/address." Go for it. This is your open opportunity to show maturity in your ability to discuss matters you feel are important or ask questions you have, and it is a great time to show that you're serious in how you take your "cadet career."

Hmm.. ok sounds good, when I asked one of my friends (who is I think he's master sergeant last I checked..) what they do at our squadron or how hard it will be he simply said, "honestly its hard to fail these things so I wouldn't worry", so I feel better now though knowing its not too hard.. but thanks yes, I'll try to do that if they start bringing up something like that, I like the idea of having nothing asked about what I have learned, though I don't know much of where I want to be in 6 months.. guess ill have to think about that..

in 6 months ideally I would like to be master Sergeant, flight Sergeant, but that really depends. but really I have no plans other then to go to encampment in the summer  ;)
-where I would like to see my fellow junior cadets is where I'm at. say they are all Airmen, then in 6 months I would like to see them where I am at- in grade that is.

well anyways, one last day to prepare-
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Fubar
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 10:22:29 PM »

"honestly its hard to fail these things so I wouldn't worry"

Seeing as a review board following a CAPF 50 (or whatever the form is now) is not a pass/fail endeavor, I'd say it's really hard to fail one.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 11:21:38 AM »

Hard to fail? Yes. That's not a thing.
Possible to be sustained in grade? Yes. Absolutely.

That statement "It's hard to fail" gives some cadets a false confidence, and I've seen plenty of cadets who have poor performance and/or behavior that has been addressed who think they're going to walk out of a review board shining. It's not a pleasant experience when a review board turns into a counseling session.

"So, you've had some issues here that have been brought up before. How do you think it's going?"
"Well, I think I'm doing fine."
"Your record shows otherwise. Let's talk about some examples...So, can you give me some insight as to where you are with these corrections."
"Everything is fixed. I'm doing great now."
"You don't reply to emails. You horse around. You're not setting a good example for junior cadets, especially those several years younger than you."
"I'm sorry. I'll do better."
"Why do you think you're ready to promote and take on the extra responsibility and accountability?"
"Because I completed the tests."
"Okay, I'm not so sure you're ready. I can't recommend it."

A board should not be the first time an issue is addressed, nor should it be the first time positive feedback is provided. It should be specifically talking about your readiness for that specific grade you are boarding for and what future it opens up to you, both good and bad.

A cadet who has some issues understanding various roles (which can be taught) is more likely to promote than a cadet who cannot grasp his former mistakes and learn from them (which is a real struggle). Performance will drive readiness.
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Picy3
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 05:07:55 PM »

Hard to fail? Yes. That's not a thing.
Possible to be sustained in grade? Yes. Absolutely.

That statement "It's hard to fail" gives some cadets a false confidence, and I've seen plenty of cadets who have poor performance and/or behavior that has been addressed who think they're going to walk out of a review board shining. It's not a pleasant experience when a review board turns into a counseling session.

"So, you've had some issues here that have been brought up before. How do you think it's going?"
"Well, I think I'm doing fine."
"Your record shows otherwise. Let's talk about some examples...So, can you give me some insight as to where you are with these corrections."
"Everything is fixed. I'm doing great now."
"You don't reply to emails. You horse around. You're not setting a good example for junior cadets, especially those several years younger than you."
"I'm sorry. I'll do better."
"Why do you think you're ready to promote and take on the extra responsibility and accountability?"
"Because I completed the tests."
"Okay, I'm not so sure you're ready. I can't recommend it."

A board should not be the first time an issue is addressed, nor should it be the first time positive feedback is provided. It should be specifically talking about your readiness for that specific grade you are boarding for and what future it opens up to you, both good and bad.

A cadet who has some issues understanding various roles (which can be taught) is more likely to promote than a cadet who cannot grasp his former mistakes and learn from them (which is a real struggle). Performance will drive readiness.


very well said.
yes, though i cant say i have problems with other cadets (i actually get along better with younger people), i did say i can have problems with my uniform, such as the boots or my hair- though the hair isn't something i can really control (my hair grows really fast so i have to have it cut a lot  ::) ), but other then that there's nothing much else.

when i did it last night they said i was good, liked my character and other then that.. there's nothing much else we talked about, the commander asked what i thought i could work on and i said my uniform and hair mainly, he said yeah to cut my hair the first week of Janurary before my promotion or he wouldn't promote me (though he was mostly joking) and uh he said congrats and to be here the first week of Janurary for my promotion  ;D ,so it went pretty good, so i guess i have a new goal to set o.O ..

who knows what it will be.. but thank you everyone for the advise and stuff, it really helped me.
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Fubar
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2017, 08:59:59 PM »

I thought a cadet's promotion was decided upon by the commander (after getting a recommendation from the promotion board) prior to any review board and CAPF 50 being administered. Otherwise how would the review board members know what to put on the CAPF 50 and what to discuss (both good and bad)?
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Cadetter
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 12:17:18 AM »

As C/CC I usually prepare the CAPF 50, either with "Promotion Approved" ticked or blank (but not with "Retained in Grade" ticked) and email it to our commander a few days in advance (if he disagreed with my recommendation, he could say so, but it hasn't happened yet). We haven't yet held a review board for which the cadet's performance influenced final decision (although if a cadet was rude or arrogant, it would, and it was borderline when a SrA didn't report in properly), and we usually discuss leadership qualities and desired staff positions with cadets.
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Picy3
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 04:29:24 AM »

Yes when I reported, I said "reporting as requested" instead of ordered, so the commander made me do it again, which was good for me.

though I was a bit worried I would mess it up somehow because the last time I had reported was in basic 6 months ago so not much practice.. but *to my knowledge* I did it all correct in the end (though I felt pretty bad in the end when I forgot to salute him before leaving, I was just very happy to hear I passed everything, but he told me before I was gone, so I turned around apologized and saluted him.

I love our commander because he can be very nice and understanding.

oh but I have one question real quick, I was told that now that I have everything needed to promote and am just waiting time that I am technically a Sergeant, so would I sign as Sergeant now or do I have to be pinned and everything before I can do that? :o
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arajca
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 10:42:47 AM »

You are not promoted to C/SSgt until your promotion shows up in Eservices. Therefore, you do not sign as C/SSgt until that time. Nor should you be wearing the grade insignia.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2017, 07:32:07 PM »

We hold the review board with the cadet. We go in after discussing it prior as to what talking points we have (generally in the preceding week or two). Someone generally fills out the Form 50 as the board is underway. We ask the cadet to leave. We discuss the interview. We bring the cadet back in and go over our talking points while he/she was out of the room. We then explain what our recommendation will be to the Commander. The Form 50 is provided once the Commander gives the okay.

We will not hold review boards well in advance of a cadet promoting, and they must have completed all of the required criteria before a board will be held. This is only for in-person reviews.

Only the Commander or someone delegated can/will check off "Promote," nor should they. As a Cadet Commander, you cannot approve a promotion. If your Commander is letting you decide for him/her, that really shouldn't be happening.



yes, though i cant say i have problems with other cadets (i actually get along better with younger people), i did say i can have problems with my uniform, such as the boots or my hair- though the hair isn't something i can really control (my hair grows really fast so i have to have it cut a lot  ::) ), but other then that there's nothing much else.


Don't make excuses.





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Cadetter
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2017, 03:13:50 PM »

We hold the review board with the cadet. We go in after discussing it prior as to what talking points we have (generally in the preceding week or two). Someone generally fills out the Form 50 as the board is underway. We ask the cadet to leave. We discuss the interview. We bring the cadet back in and go over our talking points while he/she was out of the room. We then explain what our recommendation will be to the Commander. The Form 50 is provided once the Commander gives the okay.

We will not hold review boards well in advance of a cadet promoting, and they must have completed all of the required criteria before a board will be held. This is only for in-person reviews.

Only the Commander or someone delegated can/will check off "Promote," nor should they. As a Cadet Commander, you cannot approve a promotion. If your Commander is letting you decide for him/her, that really shouldn't be happening.

Only the Commander can approve the promotion; what I check on the Form 50 is a recommendation that would be changed if he disagrees. Not sure where the issue is - I said in my previous post that it's a recommendation.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2017, 05:42:17 PM »

Only the Commander can approve the promotion; what I check on the Form 50 is a recommendation that would be changed if he disagrees. Not sure where the issue is - I said in my previous post that it's a recommendation.

As the regs currently sit.  That is outside your lane. 
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Cadetter
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2017, 08:27:41 PM »

As the regs currently sit.  That is outside your lane.

Please cite. I'll certainly address this with my commander if it's incorrect, but as far as my understanding goes, it's perfectly acceptable for a cadet officer to prepare the F50/60-90, including the opinion that the cadet should be promoted, and send it to him for approval... he decides whether that box stays checked, and he signs. Since review boards are requested at least a week in advance, we discuss performance at the previous meeting and already know what will be on the form... including the decision.

52-16 5.2.f, "Advancement, and the promotions in grade that accompany it, becomes official when the squadron commander (or designee) endorses the cadet’s record in the Cadet Promotions Application in eServices or, alternatively, endorses the CAPF 52-series form."

It's his signature at the bottom of the form, and his agreement that "Promotion Approved" is correct. That seems like endorsement to me...

60-1 5.2.1, "Advancement, and the promotions in grade that accompany it, become official when the squadron commander (or designee) endorses the cadet’s record in the Cadet Promotions Application in eServices."
5.7.1, "Commanders  must  ensure  each  cadet  receives  constructive  feedback using the CAPF 60-90 series, Cadet Leadership Feedback, ... Adult leaders and  cadet  officers  may  conduct  CAPF  60-90  series  evaluations  (cadet  officers  may  evaluate  cadets  who are  junior  to  them  in  grade).  Commanders  may  approve  or  disapprove  the  evaluation;  ultimately  the commander must ensure the cadet’s progress is evaluated properly."

Again, it's the Commander who approves the evaluation regardless.
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2017, 11:03:38 PM »

Yes, but it's the promotion board that recommends, or does not, a promotion, not an
individual cadet (or senior member).

Assuming you are on that board, you are one voice in the mix.  If you aren't on that board,
you can have an opinion, but it may not even be considered.

Also, the evaluator is supposed to be a senior member, or if it's a cadet, that cadet is to work under a
senior members supervision, not simply prepare the form themselves and hand it to the CC.

There are very good, well thought-out reasoning behind this, not the least of which is that
not only are cadets perishable in regards to time, but cadets at all levels are still learning,
by design, and an improperly prepared or executed Leadership conference could well
stifle a cadets motivation permanently.
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2017, 11:23:10 PM »

I think I see what you're saying, but I believe it is a non-issue in my case. I work with the CDC in pre-discussion (often I ask the first sergeant for input if I don't know the cadet very well - as he isn't yet a cadet officer he shouldn't be on boards), and although I normally start off the board, there's never any question that the CC is in charge. All board members provide feedback and When I send the form 50, it includes the input of all board members. We have a small squadron, and from frequent communications with my commanders it's generally quite obvious what the promotion decisions and feedback will be.

Feedback sessions are indeed important - as an airman and junior NCO many of mine were poorly executed, so I never attempt to advise from my opinions alone.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2017, 12:51:43 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2017, 01:10:05 PM »

I'm not sure, as the CC is the promotion authority (unless the regs mean CDC when 'Commander' is used). Since we're communicating and the only difference is who types the form 50, it shouldn't matter one way or another, especially when the C/CC is directed to type it and recommend to the CC (based on the discussion with the CDC prior to writing it). During the review session we have cadets report in to the CC or CDC, never the C/CC...
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2017, 03:24:35 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2017, 03:39:16 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).

Promo boards are currently required.

CAPR 52-16:
"d. Promotion Boards. Effective 1 September 2014, units will hold promotion boards to help the
commander decide if cadets are ready to accept the increased responsibilities that come with their
promotions. At a minimum, the board meets without the cadet present and reviews the cadet’s personnel
file to ensure he or she is qualified for promotion. At least once per phase, commanders will have the cadet
meet with the board in person for a mentoring discussion. When in-person boards are conducted, they will
operate according to CAPP 52-15, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7, and must meet the following criteria:"


They appear to be eliminated entirely in the upcoming CP revision, in favor of "Feedback Meetings", which
are not a ""promotion board".

CAPR 60-1 (eff Feb 2018)
"5.7.2. Feedback Meetings. At least once per phase, commanders will ensure the cadet participates in
a feedback meeting, which is a mentoring opportunity and discussion about the cadet’s performance in
the Cadet Program. Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7,
and must meet the following criteria:
• A completed CAPF 60-90 series form must serve as the basis for discussion.
• Feedback meetings will not re-test cadets on material they already passed through achievement
tests.
• Commanders must apply local promotion practices consistently, with all similarly-situated cadets
subject to the same process."


I read this as "assumed promotable absent a justification", with promotion boards no longer required
for each achievement / milestone.  CC's can choose to do a 60-90 for each promotion, but those who
don't would not have a board to refer to any more for cadets.

The term "promotion board" does not seem to appear at all within 60-1.

Cadet may now explicitly evaluate subordinates:
"5.7.1. Leadership Feedback. Commanders must ensure each cadet receives constructive feed-back
using the CAPF 60-90 series, Cadet Leadership Feedback, at least once per phase. The CAPF 60-90 series
includes four forms – CAPF 60-91, CAPF 60-92, CAPF 60-93 and CAPF 60-94 – one for each phase in the
Cadet Program. Two forms – CAPF 60-95 and CAPF 60-96 – are tailored for encampments. Adult leaders
and cadet officers may conduct CAPF 60-90 series evaluations (cadet officers may evaluate cadets who
are junior to them in grade). Commanders may approve or disapprove the evaluation; ultimately the
commander must ensure the cadet’s progress is evaluated properly."


And of course 60-31 has a lot more detail on procedures for boards.
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« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2017, 04:07:55 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).
...
Cadet may now explicitly evaluate subordinates:

Cadets could already explicitly evaluate subordinates per the reference in CAPR 52-16 (CAPP 52-15 2.7). CAPP 52-15 (2.7), which has identical verbiage except in form number to CAPP 60-22 (2.7), refers to leadership feedback meetings and promotion boards, but suggests the same procedure for both. I tend to think that leadership feedback meetings happen without necessarily being tied to a promotion...

In my squadron, we have 'in person' promotion boards for milestones and a few other promotions, and the 'board meets without cadet present' (which should not, IMO, be called a promotion board) for all others. Of course, since 52-16 doesn't specify who needs to be on the board, the board meeting without the cadet present can consist one member (the CC saying ye or nay).
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 04:15:21 PM »

(which should not, IMO, be called a promotion board)

Why?  By far the majority of promotion & merit boards in the military and civilian agencies
do not involve a door knock and an interview. 

They are usually a group of either appointed commissioners or staff officers / NCOs sitting around
with a stack of submissions, PRs, or similar and discussing the names.

There's nothing wrong with helping to prepare cadets for job interviews and the like,
but frankly, if you don't know enough about a cadet's performance to know whether
he's promotable without a board, there's a serious disconnect somewhere.

The hard-chargers and problem children always bubble up, with those at the mid-point generally
being a non-issue.
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »

(which should not, IMO, be called a promotion board)

Why?  By far the majority of promotion & merit boards in the military and civilian agencies
do not involve a door knock and an interview. 

They are usually a group of either appointed commissioners or staff officers / NCOs sitting around
with a stack of submissions, PRs, or similar and discussing the names.

There's nothing wrong with helping to prepare cadets for job interviews and the like,
but frankly, if you don't know enough about a cadet's performance to know whether
he's promotable without a board, there's a serious disconnect somewhere.

The hard-chargers and problem children always bubble up, with those at the mid-point generally
being a non-issue.

What exactly is a promotion board? Except in CAPR 52-16, I've only ever heard of a promotion board coinciding with a leadership feedback meeting; that's how my leaders have always used it. Since that's the definition I'm familiar with, naturally a board meeting without a cadet present doesn't sound like a board. I have zero experience with military promotions and haven't heard of promotion boards in other contexts.

If you're taking issue with whether I think promotability is determined from a board, please read my earlier posts where I indicate it isn't. In person boards are leadership feedback meetings (since they center around CAPF 50s), and in order to give feedback on a cadet's performance, the evaluator(s) must already know said cadet's performance (and hence, whether they are promotable).
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« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2017, 04:46:43 PM »

What exactly is a promotion board? Except in CAPR 52-16, I've only ever heard of a promotion board coinciding with a leadership feedback meeting; that's how my leaders have always used it. Since that's the definition I'm familiar with, naturally a board meeting without a cadet present doesn't sound like a board. I have zero experience with military promotions and haven't heard of promotion boards in other contexts.

People appointed to discuss and decide whether (in this case), a cadet is ready for promotion.  There's no harm nor foul in
not knowing this, you're learning too.  Depending on a given board's authority, some have the final say, and some make recommendations
to a higher authority or another board or committee.  A lot of merit and promo boards have the final and only say in
civilian life, many promo boards in military, as well as those in CAP, make recommendations which the final authority (i.e. the command(s))
may accept or ignore.  Ignoring a promo board recommendation may lead to later "we told you" issues", though that's
not generally a problem in CAP, since grade confers no authority or remuneration.

If you're taking issue with whether I think promotability is determined from a board, please read my earlier posts where I indicate it isn't.In person boards are leadership feedback meetings (since they center around CAPF 50s), and in order to give feedback on a cadet's performance, the evaluator(s) must already know said cadet's performance (and hence, whether they are promotable).

I wasn't, but now maybe I am.  When does the required promotion board discuss and make their recommendation?
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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2017, 05:03:01 PM »

Before the review meeting, in my squadron usually in the preceding week. It's necessary to discuss before the board, since the board should start off by stating the promotion decision...
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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2017, 07:00:47 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).

Got ya. I know my last squadron the cadet promotion board was chaired by the CDC and the Senior promotion board was chaired by the CDS. In theory..........
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PHall
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« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2017, 08:41:21 PM »

If I recall correctly the CDC is the supposed to be the chair of the board is he not? If so he should be the one making the recommendation not the cadet commander.

The current 52-16 does not agree with you. It is silent on who is on the board (if used).

Got ya. I know my last squadron the cadet promotion board was chaired by the CDC and the Senior promotion board was chaired by the CDS. In theory..........

In my squadron we usually have the CDC, The Cadet Commander, Their Flight Commander and the Squadron Commander if they want to sit in on it.
But it can vary depending on who's available that night.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 12:25:30 AM »

What exactly is a promotion board?

In a pure military context, it's a group of members who review individual service records to determine whether to promote, or not. My record was before the Navy Chief's board a few times to determine my worthiness. I was at my duty station, and the record review was at the Navy Bureau of Personnel.b
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2017, 11:24:50 AM »

Thanks, Eclipse and SarDragon. Learn something new every day :)
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 01:55:03 PM »

Yes, but it's the promotion board that recommends, or does not, a promotion, not an
individual cadet (or senior member).

Assuming you are on that board, you are one voice in the mix.  If you aren't on that board,
you can have an opinion, but it may not even be considered.

Also, the evaluator is supposed to be a senior member, or if it's a cadet, that cadet is to work under a
senior members supervision, not simply prepare the form themselves and hand it to the CC.

There are very good, well thought-out reasoning behind this, not the least of which is that
not only are cadets perishable in regards to time, but cadets at all levels are still learning,
by design, and an improperly prepared or executed Leadership conference could well
stifle a cadets motivation permanently.

Right. If there is a board held, it should be a vote. The chairperson should not go "Okay, but I disagree with everyone here." He/she should be facilitating the board, not deciding for it.

When I advise my Commander on promotions, I am doing so as the voice of those that were consulted in the review process. "This is what the staff suggests."

I think I see what you're saying, but I believe it is a non-issue in my case. I work with the CDC in pre-discussion (often I ask the first sergeant for input if I don't know the cadet very well - as he isn't yet a cadet officer he shouldn't be on boards), and although I normally start off the board, there's never any question that the CC is in charge.

This is a unit SOP, and not a general practice that I know of.

There is no reason I see that a First Sergeant wouldn't be included in the discussion on a C/SSgt board, or any other senior C/NCO for that matter. I wouldn't advise having a C/MSgt on a C/2d Lt board, but I see no issue with having a senior cadet non-commissioned officer as part of the review discussion for junior cadets.

Really, your First Sergeant should have a somewhat decent indication of that cadet's skills in drill, mentorship, discipline, uniformity, etc. To say you're going to consult him but then say his opinion won't be considered makes no sense to me.

Is there something here I'm not getting?
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Cadetter
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 03:07:29 PM »

Well, the reg says cadet officers can evaluate cadets junior in grade. I see no issue with a First Sergeant on boards aside from it. I don't think he's supposed to be on boards because of the letter of the law, but happily my CDC disagrees, and hence the 1st Sgt is on every board (except officers').
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2017, 09:16:03 PM »

Well, the reg says cadet officers can evaluate cadets junior in grade. I see no issue with a First Sergeant on boards aside from it. I don't think he's supposed to be on boards because of the letter of the law, but happily my CDC disagrees, and hence the 1st Sgt is on every board (except officers').

There is no "letter of the law" to that. The regulations do not state who can or cannot be on a board. It does, however, state who should not be on a board, with an emphasis on family members (e.g., if the CDC is the cadet's parent, then the CDC should not sit in on the review board).

You're correct that cadet officers may evaluate a cadet using the Form 50; however, that's literally in respect to cadet officers using the Form 50 to evaluate a cadet for promotion and make that recommendation to the Commander for the final decision. Any cadet can evaluate any cadet (although best practice would always be to evaluate top-down, obviously). You can have a C/MSgt evaluate a C/SrA using a Form 50, or even an alternative form if your unit has one, under the delegation of the chain of command; it doesn't need to be used solely for a promotion. Form 50s aren't actually required for promotions, but for the mandatory once-per-phase feedback session. Review boards usually just fall in line with that, as it's a suggested part of the leadership curriculum, whereas a "feedback session" not directly linked to a promotion loses an opportunity to train and mentor in addition to reviewing a cadet for promotion.

I don't like that the R52-16 states that a board with the cadet present must be held in accordance with the Cadet Staff Handbook which is guidance; suggested practices. In fact, the handbook even suggests congratulating the cadet at the end of the board, as well as handling sustaining the cadet in grade. Unless the Commander is apart of that board, neither of those should occur.
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Fubar
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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2017, 02:39:21 AM »

Across the CAP it sounds like there is an interesting variety in where exactly the promotion board (cadet feedback session) occurs in the process. Some seem to treat it as the promotion board itself, creating a pass/fail for the cadet attempting promotion, using the CAPF 50 to document the session and provide the recommendation to the commander. Others use the feedback session and CAPF 50 to communicate to the cadet the decision of the commander and document the feedback session on the CAPF 50.

Either way, it would appear that come 1 Feb, the whole thing is moot as the new regulation makes it clear the meetings are for mentoring and not a pass/fail endeavor, as stated in Cadet Staff Handbook which per the regulation, spells out the process:

Quote from: CAPP 60-90
Put the cadet at ease so they may focus on the officers’ guidance. If using the CAPF 60-90 series form in conjunction with a promotion board, state whether the cadet will be promoted or not. Getting that question out of the way allows the cadet to focus on the feedback.

Of course having a regulation point to a pamphlet is a whole different thread of discussion, but for now it's clearly how NHQ (and the national commander who signed off on the regulation) wants the process handled.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2017, 10:31:11 AM »

Quote from: CAPP 60-90
Put the cadet at ease so they may focus on the officers’ guidance. If using the CAPF 60-90 series form in conjunction with a promotion board, state whether the cadet will be promoted or not. Getting that question out of the way allows the cadet to focus on the feedback.

And that's where "best practice" and flexibility comes in.

If you conduct the review before the feedback "board," and you already know if the cadet is going to promote or be sustained in grade, there's really no issue letting the cadet know at the sit down. But if you go in blind, and you haven't convened a review board prior, then you really shouldn't tell the cadet he/she promoted because the Commander hasn't been advised and hasn't made his/her decision on the matter.

Sure, 9/10 times, the Commander will go along with the board's recommendation. But it's still a formality.

I would encourage suggesting, in any board, that you tell the cadet what the board's recommendation is going to be, and not a "you're promoted, congratulations."
"The board has decided to recommend you for promotion pending the Commander's approval."
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Cadetter
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« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2017, 11:00:39 AM »

Interesting. We always have the Commander on our boards, so we always can inform the cadet of the promotion decision at the start. I've noticed that it helps our cadets converse more freely. (Despite telling cadets that the decision is made before the review starts, provided they're polite during it... most cadets still feel very nervous.)
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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2017, 05:57:28 PM »

Interesting. We always have the Commander on our boards, so we always can inform the cadet of the promotion decision at the start. I've noticed that it helps our cadets converse more freely. (Despite telling cadets that the decision is made before the review starts, provided they're polite during it... most cadets still feel very nervous.)

Some units have the Commander in on the boards. Some don't. Unit SOP.

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Fubar
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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 10:36:05 PM »

And that's where "best practice" and flexibility comes in.

I'm afraid I don't see where the flexibility or the "best practice" aspect comes from:

Quote from: CAPR 60-1
5.7.2. Feedback Meetings. At least once per phase, commanders will ensure the cadet participates in a feedback meeting, which is a mentoring opportunity and discussion about the cadet’s performance in the Cadet Program. Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7, and must meet the following criteria:

It goes on to list three criteria, I believe mentioned within the regulation because I don't think the pamphlet covers them. Anyway, "will operate according to" doesn't say "as a best practice, ignore if you don't like it" to me.

So am I missing something here, or is this similar to your disagreement with CAPR 60-1 contradicting CAPM 39-1?
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2017, 10:45:45 AM »

And that's where "best practice" and flexibility comes in.

I'm afraid I don't see where the flexibility or the "best practice" aspect comes from:

Quote from: CAPR 60-1
5.7.2. Feedback Meetings. At least once per phase, commanders will ensure the cadet participates in a feedback meeting, which is a mentoring opportunity and discussion about the cadet’s performance in the Cadet Program. Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7, and must meet the following criteria:

It goes on to list three criteria, I believe mentioned within the regulation because I don't think the pamphlet covers them. Anyway, "will operate according to" doesn't say "as a best practice, ignore if you don't like it" to me.

So am I missing something here, or is this similar to your disagreement with CAPR 60-1 contradicting CAPM 39-1?

Per R52-16, if you hold a review board, period, which is supposed to be with every promotion (with or without the cadet), the board needs to:
  • Review the cadet's profile
  • Determine if the cadet is qualified for promotion

If a cadet is present, which must be once per phase:
  • A completed CAPF 50 must be used as basis for the board's discussion
  • Materials already tested for previous achievements will not be re-tested
  • Local promotion policies (unit SOPs) will be applied consistently across all cadets

The board must be held in accordance with the Cadet Staff Handbook.

Per the Cadet Staff Handbook, the procedures for Feedback Meetings (Boards) are "suggested practices."

If a Commander is in the board, the Commander can make his/her decision right there and inform the cadet if he/she has been promoted. If the Commander is not present, and the board made a recommendation to the Commander prior to the feedback session, then the board can informed the cadet then and there. If the Commander is not present, and the board has not yet advised the Commander, thus no decision has been made, and the board should not inform the cadet that he/she has been promoted because that cadet has not yet been approved for promotion.

This is where your unit SOPs come in ("best practice"). How does the unit conduct its boards in a way that best meets their view of mentoring and providing feedback for continuous improvement? This is dependent on who is in the board and how the Commander is advised to make his/her final decision.

Some units delegate this to the Deputy Commander for Cadets, who will tell the Commander "so-and-so cadet has promoted;" the Commander accepts this. In other units, the Commander makes the call based on the advice of the Deputy Commander for Cadets. And I know of Commanders who demand to sit in on cadet boards every time they are conducted, or with a certain cadet grade (e.g., C/MSgt and higher).

Technically, a senior member does not even need to be in the feedback session. So if it's solely cadets in it, they cannot promote another cadet. That process doesn't exist.

If someone is telling a cadet they promoted, and it's not approved by the Commander, that person is wrong. Just like the Commander who tells a cadet to start wearing rank insignia 30 days before that cadet promotes in eServices. It's wrong, and in direct conflict with the regulations.

Re: 60-1 / 39-1
How do they disagree? 60-1 says there is an exception to the regulations due to safety and participation under x-conditions. It's not a disagreement; it's an exception. My personal opinion of it is outweighed (in either direction) by a regulatory exception. That's not an interfacing problem.

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kwe1009
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« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 11:59:20 AM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed.  If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 06:00:33 PM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed. If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.

Uh, the Group CC should not be involved in that discussion.

CAPR 52-16, 5-2(a):
Quote
The unit commander is the approving authority for all achievements and awards.
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Fubar
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 09:56:05 PM »

Per R52-16

Ah, this might be the source of my confusion, I'm quoting the new regulation CAPR 60-1, which replaces R52-16 in a couple of months. I'll go back and compare differences.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2017, 09:33:21 AM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed. If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.

Uh, the Group CC should not be involved in that discussion.

CAPR 52-16, 5-2(a):
Quote
The unit commander is the approving authority for all achievements and awards.

You are not following me.  Yes, the unit CC is the approving authority but when the unit CC disapproves Cadet Johnny's promotion and the parents are mad they go up the chain.  If that authority is delegated to the CDC then the parents can go to the squadron CC as an impartial judge.  I have seen this happen more than once where a cadet was not promoted and it actually became a huge issue despite everything being done properly and documented.  The parents went to the IG and since the unit CC is the one who withheld the promotion, it had to be brought to the Group CC for review.

Also, I'm a firm believer in delegating to the lowest level possible and if I can't trust my CDC to make the right call regarding cadet promotions then I really need to get a new CDC.  They are the ones who should know the cadets the best.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2017, 10:30:03 AM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed. If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.

Uh, the Group CC should not be involved in that discussion.

CAPR 52-16, 5-2(a):
Quote
The unit commander is the approving authority for all achievements and awards.

You are not following me.  Yes, the unit CC is the approving authority but when the unit CC disapproves Cadet Johnny's promotion and the parents are mad they go up the chain.  If that authority is delegated to the CDC then the parents can go to the squadron CC as an impartial judge.  I have seen this happen more than once where a cadet was not promoted and it actually became a huge issue despite everything being done properly and documented.  The parents went to the IG and since the unit CC is the one who withheld the promotion, it had to be brought to the Group CC for review.

Also, I'm a firm believer in delegating to the lowest level possible and if I can't trust my CDC to make the right call regarding cadet promotions then I really need to get a new CDC.  They are the ones who should know the cadets the best.

Tracking. Absolutely no disagreement on anything there.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2017, 12:15:28 PM »

You are not following me.  Yes, the unit CC is the approving authority but when the unit CC disapproves Cadet Johnny's promotion and the parents are mad they go up the chain.  If that authority is delegated to the CDC then the parents can go to the squadron CC as an impartial judge.  I have seen this happen more than once where a cadet was not promoted and it actually became a huge issue despite everything being done properly and documented.  The parents went to the IG and since the unit CC is the one who withheld the promotion, it had to be brought to the Group CC for review.

The Unit CC is always and the only approving authority for promotions. The authority can be delegated, but not the responsibility.  If
someone else is allowed to check the box in the unit, it's still in the CC's name, and supposed to be with their knowledge and blessing.

There is no "appeal to a higher authority", either implied or actual, in this regard outside an appeal based on a material failure
to follow the required processes which requires the involvement of the IGs, and starts at the Wing, outside the chain.
Any other "whine challenges" are "social", not "regulatory".

If a CC says Johnny doesn't promote, has a legitimate reason why (legitimate being subjective, but obviously can't violate a reg about retaliation, extra
local policy or requirements, etc.), and followed the denial / deferral / demotion procedures properly, Johnny doesn't promote, and absent replacing
that CC for cause (and bear in mind, command discretion / disagreement is not a cause for dismissal), Johnny's not promoting.

The Group or Wing CC can use their higher authority to promote Johnny themselves, but that is not good for order or discipline within the organization,
and certainly not something they should be doing if they otherwise have confidence in their respective CCs.

Any other conversations, appeals, etc., are in the spirit of member retention, compassion, and common sense best practices in a volunteer
environment, but there's no requirement they happen, nor regulatory support for pressure on the CC.

Group and Wing CC's are not "the next level of appeal" when someone doesn't get promoted, nor the CC when the CDC won't check the box.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2017, 01:00:07 PM »

And if someone doesn't approve and files a complaint, the Group CC isn't overriding the Squadron CC. It's going to go through the formal process to review the complaint and address it as needed, within protocol.

I'm assuming my Group CC would raise an eyebrow if I said I had a cadet that I didn't think should promote, wondering what was so bad that it got taken to that level. And I would expect to receive some questions from him to figure out what the problem is and assist in making that determination. But in the end, the Squadron CC will make the call.

As is happens, the only cadet I've recommended to sustained in grade has been my Commander's kid. Okay, that's not entirely true. I once accidentally promoted the wrong cadet in eServices.  :-\
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Paul Creed III
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« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2017, 04:40:31 PM »


I'm assuming my Group CC would raise an eyebrow if I said I had a cadet that I didn't think should promote, wondering what was so bad that it got taken to that level. And I would expect to receive some questions from him to figure out what the problem is and assist in making that determination. But in the end, the Squadron CC will make the call.


He would indeed raise an eyebrow...
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2017, 03:51:53 PM »


I'm assuming my Group CC would raise an eyebrow if I said I had a cadet that I didn't think should promote, wondering what was so bad that it got taken to that level. And I would expect to receive some questions from him to figure out what the problem is and assist in making that determination. But in the end, the Squadron CC will make the call.


He would indeed raise an eyebrow...

Exactly, Sir.  :P  ;D

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