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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Patron Status
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DemonOps
Forum Regular

Posts: 106
Unit: GLR-MI-703

« on: November 15, 2017, 01:58:15 PM »

As I contemplate retiring, I started to review just what that means.  As a Patron member, seems like I can still do conferesnces and other special activities, but can't wear the CAP uniform.  What about the blue blazer, name tag, grade and state above the CAP emblem?


Just wondering.  Just wanted to know.  We have an in inactive squadron in our wing; that might be an option. If I wanted to wear a uniform, I can still fit into my AF uniform  :)
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP
GLR-MI-703 West Michigan Group
Historian and Administration Officer
Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,685
Unit: of issue

« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2017, 02:24:17 PM »

A retired member is not a patron member. 

Patron members are considered an "associate" member. They are assigned to a unit (generally, they were a member there before), continue to pay dues and are a "patron" of the organization thru their dues. They may attend conferences or social events ONLY, but cannot wear the uniform or fly in CAP aircraft. CAPR 39-2, para 4.2.

A retired member is also an "associate" member, but they are not active participants in any way, nor is their name or record carried on any unit's membership rolls. They have a retired ID card, and may attend conferences, but attendance at other activities (meetings, conferences, social events, training, etc) is at the invitation of the wing or region commander of the wing or region of the unit hosting the event.  IOW, retired members don't get to "just show up" when they want.  Retirees may wear the blazer combo or appropriate civilian attire when participating as a retired member. CAPR 39-2, para 4.3

Its pretty straightforward. One pays dues (Patron), the other does not (Retired). Both are "Associate" members



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2017, 02:27:05 PM »

None of the CAP uniforms, including the blazer, are authorized for Patron members.

"Retired" members can only wear the blazer (which many people confuse with the whites and
wear over a shirt with all the accouterments, which is verboten).

Mileage varies by wing, but many are no longer moving members to 000 unless a charter folds,
and then only in transit. Depends on the wing.

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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2017, 02:28:22 PM »

IOW, retired members don't get to "just show up" when they want. 

That's also true in most cases for Patrons as well.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2017, 02:47:48 PM »

IOW, retired members don't get to "just show up" when they want. 

That's also true in most cases for Patrons as well.

39-2 is very specific about what events Patron & Retired members can attend, respectively.  Its all in the referenced paragraphs.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
DemonOps
Forum Regular

Posts: 106
Unit: GLR-MI-703

« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 05:31:14 PM »

That's what I figured.


Tough decision.  Or not.  Looks like either stick around and do minimum things (something I'd like to avoid) or retire. 


Just received my Major leaves from Vanguard because I've volunteered to take some pictures at an activity this weekend.


Even though I'm a Major in eServices and my wing commander called me personally to congratulate me, my local unit hasn't acknowledged my promotion (in the military, you don't wear grade until its given to you). 


Lucky thing I'm a sensitive snowflake,or I just might be hurt!  :(
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP
GLR-MI-703 West Michigan Group
Historian and Administration Officer
Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,535

« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 06:03:32 PM »

But, you are NOT in the military! WEAR your grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
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NIN
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 07:11:36 PM »

But, you are NOT in the military! WEAR your grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"You're never wrong if you wear the uniform your commander specifies."

If your commander hasn't promoted you yet, you wouldn't be wearing the uniform he/she specifies.

There should be a promotion ceremony.  Call me a traditionalist, but thats how its done.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,319

« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 08:19:44 PM »

When I was a cadet, Wing HQ used to send you a postcard when your Earhart Award had been processed (this was pre-eServices). I got mine, and managed to scrounge up a nice set of C/Capt pips to put on my blues for the next meeting.

My commander walked into the squadron office on meeting night, and as he walked by me he stopped, looked me right in the eye, and said "Take those off. You're not promoted until I promote you" and moved on. I was right back to C/1st Lt in a jiffy, let me tell you.

Fast forward many years, and my Maj promotion had been processed. I was at my squadron meeting wearing Capt epaulets, and the group commander at the time happened to be at the meeting. He inquired as to why I wasn't wearing Maj yet, and I said no one had pinned me. He looked perplexed, so I relayed the WIWAC story and he just laughed. Then he promoted me at opening formation. :)
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Al Sayre
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Posts: 2,513
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 09:37:57 PM »

Wear your bars and have your leaves in your pocket, that way you can make it right either way...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
FallenTX
Recruit

Posts: 10
Unit: SWR-TX-351

« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 09:48:26 PM »

But, you are NOT in the military! WEAR your grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"You're never wrong if you wear the uniform your commander specifies."

If your commander hasn't promoted you yet, you wouldn't be wearing the uniform he/she specifies.

There should be a promotion ceremony.  Call me a traditionalist, but thats how its done.

Except that the Commander had to approve your promotion for you to get it.

It's different in the military when you're there every day and can get a quick promotion ceremony as soon as it happens. In this non constant volunteer environment, I say what eServices says makes much more sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 10:37:00 PM »

In this non constant volunteer environment, I say what eServices says makes much more sense.

+1 If I waited to be "pinned", I'd still be literally wearing blank epaulets and CAP cutouts.

18+ years, 5 promotions, never been pinned.  Took over a year for 2d Lt, and that only came
through because I was going to an encampment and finally asked about it.

The rest came when I was on Group staff or higher, or the unit CC, so there was no one to do the deed.
(few unit meetings, other more important things, etc.). I believe for Major and Lt Col no one said anything,
there was no email, and I found out randomly when I noticed on eServices - super inspiring and really makes
the effort worthwhile.

This is one of the reasons I try to make sure all my people get the pomp and circumstance they deserve.

We only have one pinning and awards night a month, but I'd never delay the actual promotion dates
for anyone, and in the interim, I try to make a point of referring to the member as "grade-select Bago", etc.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 626

« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 12:56:08 AM »

Call me a traditionalist, but thats how its done.

Traditionalist! (Hey you asked). The only senior member I've ever seen get promoted in front of people was the guy who flew in his parents for his 2d Lt. Seemed a bit excessive for two minutes of congratulations, handshakes, and handing over the grade slides. To each his own of course.
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NIN
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Posts: 4,685
Unit: of issue

« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 09:19:14 AM »

Call me a traditionalist, but thats how its done.

Traditionalist! (Hey you asked). The only senior member I've ever seen get promoted in front of people was the guy who flew in his parents for his 2d Lt. Seemed a bit excessive for two minutes of congratulations, handshakes, and handing over the grade slides. To each his own of course.

You should come to my squadron.  EVERYBODY gets pinned.  None of this "You're a Lt Col in eServices now, you can wear it."

Seniors only get (without any dispensation) five promotions over their time of service. Why not make a big deal about it, right? Its not like you're promoting them 3 times a year or something.

Again, maybe I'm a bit of a traditionalist about this, but what Eclipse mentions sort of reflects on the leadership in his wing over the last 18 years of his membership.  This is basic leadership here. Taking care of your people, show them they are a valued member of the team, and recognizing their achievements and efforts.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 10:49:59 AM by NIN » Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
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Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 131
Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 09:31:16 AM »

Yup, 21+ years.  Not one formal promotion.  Heck, even my Garber was handed to me in an envelope off to the side.  The only thing that was "formally" presented was a 20 year certificate.

Not that recognition is the thing, but it does help the cadets to understand that we don't just wear what we want to.   There are actual requirements.
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Mike Toedebusch
Spaatz Award 1168 - 1 June 1993
jeders
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Posts: 2,013

« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 10:21:48 AM »

When I was a new senior member I never got pinned for 2d or 1st Lt. When I transferred to a new unit I got a full on promotion ceremony for Capt. Because of that, when I eventually became a commander I made sure to have a promotion for EVERY SINGLE MEMBER. There are only two people I have not actually pinned; the first is my wife who gets severe anxiety and doesn't like to have her picture taken and the second was a member who just happened to have something else happening every time we had a promotion ceremony planned for her.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,711
Unit: Earth

« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 10:29:01 AM »

I had ceremonies for Lt Col, the Wilson Award, and my Master Historian Badge.  The others were skipped, but that was because I really did not want anything special.  The Wilson was special for the wing, as I was the first SM to receive both the Spaatz and the Wilson in that wing.  The Master Historian Badge was also special for the wing because no one in the Wing's history had ever received the Master Historian rating.
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ColonelJack
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,340
Unit: SER-GA-153

« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 07:49:33 AM »

The only time any kind of "fuss" was made over a promotion or award for me was to second lieutenant.  I didn't even know the promotion had come in; my Squadron CC at the time had gotten the word that week, back in December of 1981, and at our regular meeting made a show of putting the epaulets on my uniform shirt.

Since then ... promotions, observer wings, Commander's Commendations, Meritorious Service Award, Garber, Wilson ... bupkis.

No worries, though.  I earned 'em all, I wear 'em all when I do dress up.

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 758

« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 10:45:45 AM »

It really is sad that so many Wings/Groups/Squadrons do not make the effort to recognize a promotion unless it is a cadet milestone (and sometimes, not even then!).  It is not hard and not time-consuming to properly recognize any member who is being promoted or has eared some type of award (PD, ES, etc.).  For those that do not take the time to do recognition, you would be amazed at what an impact it makes on recruiting and retention.  Even if the person being recognized doesn't care, there is likely someone in attendance that does care and is motivated by the ceremony.
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MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 304

« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 12:09:13 PM »

At our squadron we definitely make sure to pin on any member who has earned their promotion or award. In the words of our Wing commander, "it's the only pay we get". Recognizing accomplishments, and saying a public "thanks" always goes a long way towards making people think that the time they spend on CAP things is worth their while.

We have had members who complained mightily about needing to go through the ceremonies, but they were always rather pleased about it afterwards. I suspect it's the public aspects of it that makes them somewhat apprehensive (standing in front of a crowd, reciting the oath, having everyone look at them, etc.)

For awards, we either give them in the same fashion as a promotion during "blues nights" or at Squadron Banquets (service awards). Again, the full ceremony including handshakes from dignitaries, photos, certificates, the works. I guess I would look askance at an organization that does NOT offer these public thank you ceremonies.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 758

« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2017, 01:11:29 PM »

"it's the only pay we get". Recognizing accomplishments, and saying a public "thanks" always goes a long way towards making people think that the time they spend on CAP things is worth their while.

Agreed.  From a Squadron/Group/Wing CC perspective it does not take much effort to do a simple public promotion or award presentation but for some members it could mean the difference between renewing and not renewing their membership.

One of the top priorities of a leader in any organization is to take care of their people.  If you aren't properly recognizing their accomplishments, what are you doing that is more important?
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Fubar
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Posts: 626

« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2017, 04:23:01 PM »

It really is sad that so many Wings/Groups/Squadrons do not make the effort to recognize a promotion unless it is a cadet milestone (and sometimes, not even then!).

Cadet milestones are required to be recognized by the current cadet regulation (it even says who should be there to give the award to the cadet). There is no requirement for senior members and that's understandable given the disparity in requirements for cadet promotions versus senior member promotions.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »

Cadet milestones are required to be recognized by the current cadet regulation (it even says who should be there to give the award to the cadet).
The what now?  Real CAP leaders read FARs not regs.

There is no requirement for senior members and that's understandable given the disparity in requirements for cadet promotions versus senior member promotions.

There should be.  With no disrespect to the effort a cadet puts in to progress, they can do three, maybe even 4 in a year if the dates align,
and their primary job in CAP is being served and progressing, adult members take years between promotions, have jobs, families, and "real" CAP work to do serving the organization.  An organizaiton which could not survive without them. Then there's the non-trivial issues of the later grades
being treated like they came with a check, and job, and housing, when in reality they are more a VG revenue stream.

The only thing more counterprodictive then no recognizing your A-Teamers, is recognizing the seat warmers who can get to all the conferences and
wing meetings, because, you know, they don[t actually have anything to do, which the hard-chargers running everything get passed over because they
don't have the time to waste with rubber chicken and Powerpoint (or they are backstage running things).

It's rough being Wing or Region staff and having to go all over Hell's Elbow no where to hand out a cert, but that's the job,
and if you don't do it, eventually you may not need to, and it's not like CAP is growing LIV and LVs at a huge rate these days.

Heck, instead of root-canals about files plans, SUIs and CIs should look at this kind of stuff that really matters.
"How many Majors did the wing promote and who was there to pin them?"



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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 758

« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2017, 05:23:23 PM »

It really is sad that so many Wings/Groups/Squadrons do not make the effort to recognize a promotion unless it is a cadet milestone (and sometimes, not even then!).

Cadet milestones are required to be recognized by the current cadet regulation (it even says who should be there to give the award to the cadet). There is no requirement for senior members and that's understandable given the disparity in requirements for cadet promotions versus senior member promotions.

I am well aware of this but just because there is a regulation covering cadet milestone presentation, that doesn't mean that everyone follows it. 

It is also true that there is no requirement for SM promotion ceremonies but that does not mean that it should not be done.  There are requirements for who should present PD awards but that is usually not followed from what I have seen.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 626

« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 09:10:03 PM »

There should be.  With no disrespect to the effort a cadet puts in to progress, they can do three, maybe even 4 in a year if the dates align, and their primary job in CAP is being served and progressing, adult members take years between promotions, have jobs, families, and "real" CAP work to do serving the organization.

While I completely see your point, I suspect we disagree on the level of accomplishment of a cadet promotion compared to a senior member promotion. Cadets have to study, achieve a certainly level of physical fitness, and put in real work. Senior members simply sit through powerpoints, accrue time in the organization, and wham, promotion. I suspect we both know a number of seniors who have promoted who haven't actually accomplished much of anything nor provided any real value to the organization.

Now, to your point about recognizing those that are "A-Teamers" and the disservice we do them by recognizing those that really haven't done much of anything (as in just getting promoted on schedule), we're in complete agreement. It's not an issue unique to CAP by any means, but I also wish we did better at it. Since most commanders are willing to study to the test when it comes to SUIs, perhaps something on the PD tab aimed at how many commendations or "of the year" award nominations were authored over the past year. I fear this will just lead to more goofballs being submitted for awards, but perhaps that's a worthwhile price to pay to ensure the 10% that do 90% of the work get the thanks they deserve.

Quote from: Eclipse
The what now?  Real CAP leaders read FARs not regs.

Oh, I thought real CAP leaders read AFIs and AFMANs, not regs  ;)
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Patron Status
 


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