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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Who is PIC? What are the EP? What are the Operating Parameters? CRM???
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Author Topic: Who is PIC? What are the EP? What are the Operating Parameters? CRM???  (Read 988 times)
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482

« on: November 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM »

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20151117X83015&AKey=1&RType=Summary&IType=LA


While this accident isn't in any aircraft in CAP's inventory some of the points made in the Final report (and in the docket) are interesting.  The flight was the fifth of a ten hour familiarization and checkout regime required by the insurance company of the new owner of a Lancair IV-P.  The new owner was a 66 year old ATP who reported  4000 hours of piston  and 23,000 hours of multi (jet) time, and 5 hours in the make and model of the accident aircraft.  The 54 year old CFI had about 1400 hours flight time, 307 hours of dual instruction given, and 32 hours in the make and model of the accident aircraft.  The CFI had completed Lancair Owners and Builders Organization (LOBO) flight instructor ground and flight standardization training in September 201, and completed LOBO recurrent ground standardization training in September 2015, about two months prior to the accident flight.

Among the interesting items mentioned: 

During a practice emergency descent immediately prior to power loss the aircraft was pitched nose down 20 degrees.  The engine experienced two issues that were outside of the TCDS:  Overspeed by about 700 RPM; and a .5 G positive load factor.  The NTSB Final report drawing from the TCDS lists the maximum RPM as 2700.  The TCDS shows a reduction in expected oil available in the sump would be substantially reduced at nose down attitudes up to 4.5 degrees.  NTSB Materials Report also details overspeed induced fracture of several teeth from both magneto gears.   The NTSB probable cause of the accident was  "...total loss of engine power due to a dual magneto failure, as a result of an exceedance of the engine's operating limitations while maneuvering."

Not explicitly stated in the report, but strongly implied by documents in the NTSB Docket was a lack of familiarity by both pilots with engine operating parameters, and lack of familiarity with emergency off airport engine out landing procedures for this aircraft.

According to the NTSB Final Report, the CFI and Pilot Flying (PF) did not discuss who would be PIC should an emergency occur.  Perhaps they also did not discuss "CRM".

During the emergency the CFI did not take over, nor did the CFI  suggest actions to the PF that would reduce the approach to land airspeed and perhaps have resulted in a landing at the beginning of the emergency field, rather than a long landing that delayed touch down until the end of the field.  According to the NTSB final Report "The [CFI] stated he thought that he should have assumed the flying duties for the forced landing, but deferred to the pilot he was instructing due to his considerable aeronautical experience.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,886

« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2017, 02:58:15 PM »

CRM is a large airplane with multiple crew members thing. Not practiced that much in the general aviation world.
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SarDragon
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Posts: 10,085
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2017, 08:13:25 PM »

CRM is a large airplane with multiple crew members thing. Not practiced that much in the general aviation world.

I gotta disagree, a little. Just about every GA flight I've had in the last ten years has had as a minimum, a pre-flight brief on basic dos and don'ts at various stages of the flight, including passengers. This fits into CRM, IMHO.

For the folks in the front row, it goes even farther regarding specific duties and procedures. When I'm in the right seat, I expect the pilot to get me up to speed on his expectations. I am not a certificated pilot, but I am a long lapsed student pilot who knows his way around a cockpit. I haven't scared anyone yet, flying a plane from the right seat.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,886

« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 09:05:18 PM »

CRM is a large airplane with multiple crew members thing. Not practiced that much in the general aviation world.

I gotta disagree, a little. Just about every GA flight I've had in the last ten years has had as a minimum, a pre-flight brief on basic dos and don'ts at various stages of the flight, including passengers. This fits into CRM, IMHO.

For the folks in the front row, it goes even farther regarding specific duties and procedures. When I'm in the right seat, I expect the pilot to get me up to speed on his expectations. I am not a certificated pilot, but I am a long lapsed student pilot who knows his way around a cockpit. I haven't scared anyone yet, flying a plane from the right seat.

But there is no question who is in charge, right? 
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SarDragon
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 09:34:28 PM »

In my experience, yes. It's pretty much always the other guy.  ;)
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Dave Bowles
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EMT-83
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Posts: 1,825

« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 11:02:35 PM »

I would hope that CRM would be very common in CAP flight operations. The crew members other than the PIC aren't exactly out for a joy ride.
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482

« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 01:01:00 AM »

CRM is a large airplane with multiple crew members thing. Not practiced that much in the general aviation world.

I gotta disagree, a little. Just about every GA flight I've had in the last ten years has had as a minimum, a pre-flight brief on basic dos and don'ts at various stages of the flight, including passengers. This fits into CRM, IMHO.

For the folks in the front row, it goes even farther regarding specific duties and procedures. When I'm in the right seat, I expect the pilot to get me up to speed on his expectations. I am not a certificated pilot, but I am a long lapsed student pilot who knows his way around a cockpit. I haven't scared anyone yet, flying a plane from the right seat.

But there is no question who is in charge, right?

I'm curious about PHall's question, and later reply to SarDagon's point re: CRM.  ALL of my flights with CAP as a MP, MTP, or otherwise involved a pre-brief with my expectations as pilot, or if flying in the right seat the flying pilot's expectations of me.  Are some wings so stretched for pilots that there is never an occasion for two qualified pilots to be up front?  How, I wonder, do these CAP Wings accomplish compliance with CAPF5 or CAPF91 check flights if both seats are not occupied by qualified pilots?
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,082

« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 01:25:57 AM »

CRM is a large airplane with multiple crew members thing. Not practiced that much in the general aviation world.

I gotta disagree, a little. Just about every GA flight I've had in the last ten years has had as a minimum, a pre-flight brief on basic dos and don'ts at various stages of the flight, including passengers. This fits into CRM, IMHO.

For the folks in the front row, it goes even farther regarding specific duties and procedures. When I'm in the right seat, I expect the pilot to get me up to speed on his expectations. I am not a certificated pilot, but I am a long lapsed student pilot who knows his way around a cockpit. I haven't scared anyone yet, flying a plane from the right seat.

But there is no question who is in charge, right?

I'm curious about PHall's question, and later reply to SarDagon's point re: CRM.  ALL of my flights with CAP as a MP, MTP, or otherwise involved a pre-brief with my expectations as pilot, or if flying in the right seat the flying pilot's expectations of me.  Are some wings so stretched for pilots that there is never an occasion for two qualified pilots to be up front?  How, I wonder, do these CAP Wings accomplish compliance with CAPF5 or CAPF91 check flights if both seats are not occupied by qualified pilots?

You're comparing things which aren't the same.

In a mission environment, the right seat is the Observer.  Not the "co-pilot", "safety pilot", "mini-pilot" or any of the other machinations
people justify for a situation which ultimately causes issues.  The PIC is in the left seat.  That's not up for debate, nor should there need to
be any discussion on the matter.  If the person assigned as an Observer happens to also be a pilot, they aren't one that sortie, and
have other things to attend to.

Obviously on check rides there are two pilots in the aircraft.  I suppose in those case, especially if there is a disparity in
experience, a brief discussion of who takes the airplane in an emergency wouldn't hurt, but it could still make
this potentially worse if right seat guy decides to take over the left seat guy hasn't given up yet.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 01:29:02 AM by Eclipse » Logged

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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SarDragon
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Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 01:46:45 AM »

The flight in the OP was NOT a CAP flight, and the discussion is CRM in general. That's where my comments were directed. I made no distinction in the nature of my GA flight experiences to avoid CAP vs. non-CAP comparison.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Cliff_Chambliss
Seasoned Member

Posts: 395

« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 09:58:14 AM »

One page I have added to every checklist (including CAP checklists) right before take off:

Crew Brief Update:
1.  Who is PIC.
2.  Purpose of flight.
3.  Who Flies.
4.  Who Navigates.
5.  Who manages radios.
6.  Emergencies:
    a.  Who Flies
    b.  Who manages checklists
    c.  Who manages radios.
7.  Remember Safety is a shared responsibility.
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CAVALRY:  If it were easy it would be called infantry.
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,886

« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 10:51:36 AM »

One page I have added to every checklist (including CAP checklists) right before take off:

Crew Brief Update:
1.  Who is PIC.
2.  Purpose of flight.
3.  Who Flies.
4.  Who Navigates.
5.  Who manages radios.
6.  Emergencies:
    a.  Who Flies
    b.  Who manages checklists
    c.  Who manages radios.
7.  Remember Safety is a shared responsibility.

I wouldn't do that right before takeoff, I'd do it before we left the briefing room.
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Cliff_Chambliss
Seasoned Member

Posts: 395

« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 09:57:02 AM »

Poor choice of words on my part.  Yes, these are addressed as part of the pre-flight briefing.  But then as a reminder in the aircraft before engine start. 
Flight Lesson as briefed
You Fly
Your Navigate
Your operate radios

In emergency I fly you find checklist items
you read checklist - I perform required action.
I operate radios.
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11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
2d Armored Cavalry Regiment
3d Infantry Division
504th BattleField Surveillance Brigade

ARMY:  Because even the Marines need heros.    
CAVALRY:  If it were easy it would be called infantry.
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482

« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2017, 03:41:57 PM »

... these are addressed as part of the pre-flight briefing.  But then as a reminder in the aircraft before engine start. 
Flight Lesson as briefed
You Fly
Your Navigate
Your operate radios

In emergency I fly you find checklist items
you read checklist - I perform required action.
I operate radios.

I agree.  On more than one occasion I have reminded non-flying (right seat) pilots who is PIC, and what our pre-briefed duties are.  A quick search of the NTSB DB turns up examples of "instructional", "check ride", and other accidents where pilot rated passengers inserted themselves into operations without prior agreement by the (unstated, but usually left seat - and sometimes right seat) who assumed by virtue of which seat, seniority, stacks of ratings, being a 'check' pilot, or whatever, that they were PIC for some unagreed to aspect of a flight.  Not to argue with Eclipse, but IMHO, the same need to establish clear agreement is true for check rides.  Unless stated otherwise (and agreed to BEFORE the flight) it's an unnecessary and easily mitigatable hazard to takeoff without a clear, unambiguous statement agreed to by both front seaters about WHO is PIC for each aspect of the flight (including both normal ops and in an emergency).  Hence, CRM most certainly applies to each and every flight, and especially if two rated pilots (current or not) are up front.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 03:47:02 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Who is PIC? What are the EP? What are the Operating Parameters? CRM???
 


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