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MSG Mac
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Unit: MER-MD-071

« on: October 13, 2017, 04:58:19 PM »

National HQ announced that the new Cadet Programs Manual 60-1 (1 Jan 18 edition)would be released in October so that units could begin implementing it early. Obviously hasn't been done yet. Anyone have an idea of when it will be released?
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 05:05:52 PM »

The final draft has been presented to the National Commander for his consideration and possible signature.

Restated, it is on his desk as we speak.  He may sign it, or refer it back to staff as he chooses.

Re-restated, it could be any day now.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 07:57:29 PM »


I do seem to recall having seen a summary document outlining some of the changes, but I must have missed the draft for comments (usually those are faithfully uploaded in the Proving Grounds). Do you have a link to it, Ned?

Thanks
Spam

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 10:01:36 PM »

Sigh.
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Ned
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 11:37:56 PM »


Do you have a link to it, Ned?

Thanks
Spam

Forgive me, but I'm on my little phone so it is hard to link directly.  But if you go to the Cadet Blog, then go to the August 24th entry for Cadet News and Innoventions, the links for the summaries for both the 60-1 & 60-2 are there.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,877

« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 12:16:23 AM »

Sigh.

Why the sigh?
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Spam
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Unit: GA-001

« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 01:01:49 AM »


Do you have a link to it, Ned?

Thanks
Spam

Forgive me, but I'm on my little phone so it is hard to link directly.  But if you go to the Cadet Blog, then go to the August 24th entry for Cadet News and Innoventions, the links for the summaries for both the 60-1 & 60-2 are there.

Thanks so much, Ned. I knew it was there somewhere (the summary at least).

Path:
https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/
https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/?cadet_news__innovations_2017&show=entry&blogID=1849

Is the actual draft posted anywhere, and the draft of the other new pubs (e.g. CAPR 60-2 Cadet Protection, CAPP 1-10 Best Practices for Special Needs)? If NHQ were following recent practice I'd have expected to see it in draft for comment form on the Proving Grounds, but that page doesn't appear to have had an update in a year or so.

The "Glasnost" (Openness) aspect there (similar to the FAAs notice of proposed rulemaking) really deserves applause and one hopes that some of the feedback from the reviewers was helpful. Is there a reason for the policy shift to go back to keeping the draft material so close-hold?

V/r
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Ned
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 11:01:26 AM »

Nothing very mysterious.  You are certainly correct that while prior revisions of CP publications were always posted for public review and comment (sometimes several times), our new CAP-wide Publications Reengineering initiative does not include that particular step.  And all of the OPR shops are required to follow the new path.

That said, the drafting and review process is very comprehensive, with multiple staff coordination reviews, and reviews by OPR staff at lower levels.  For example, the new draft for the 60-1 was reviewd extensively internally at NHQ (including both professional and volunteer staff), as well as sent to each region commander and CP shop for comment.  NHQ/CP was then required to list each of the suggestions and comments and specifically reply to each them, and incorporate improvements into the draft.  I can assure you it is a very thorough and rigorous process before reaching a final draft for the senior leadership's review and approval.

I believe the new process allows us to reach a carefully considered and quality product.  Since this is our first Publication Reengineering effort, I imagine the senior leadership may well review the process and add a public comment period if it will improve our product.  All of us should provide feedback to the chain on ways to improve our pubs.

Ned Lee
Col,  CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

(You can find information on the Publications Reengineering process on the CAP PublicTions Page)
In the meantime, I hope you will find our new pubs helpful in administering our terrific CP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 11:29:24 AM »

Here is the direct link to the "Innovations" document referred to
which includes the summary of the proposed new 60-1.
https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

It's also attached for posterity.

The link in Mr. LaFond's comment post current goes to a ad site for, ironically enough,
how to give effective presentations.   



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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2017, 02:03:38 PM »

Sigh.

It's November now.  Judging from what I've read and heard, this is going to be a sizeable shift in how CP is managed/administered, even if you only take the fitness changes into account (not to mention SDAs).

If it's done, release it; if it's not, don't tell people it's getting released in October and going live in January.  The squadrons are trying to give CAP the best cadet program possible.  Give them the most rudimentary, basic tool to do so (this reg, the Cliff Notes that are out there now don't count) and give them adequate time (at least a month ago) to read it and plan for implementation on 1 January. 

Come on, dudes.  I'm a true believer in CP, but this is getting hard to defend while seeing YouTube videos go up about "excellence in mission accomplishment".
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Ned
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Posts: 2,122

« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 02:38:20 PM »

[
It's November now.  Judging from what I've read and heard, this is going to be a sizeable shift in how CP is managed/administered, even if you only take the fitness changes into account (not to mention SDAs).

If it's done, release it; if it's not, don't tell people it's getting released in October and going live in January.  The squadrons are trying to give CAP the best cadet program possible.  Give them the most rudimentary, basic tool to do so (this reg, the Cliff Notes that are out there now don't count) and give them adequate time (at least a month ago) to read it and plan for implementation on 1 January. 

Come on, dudes.  I'm a true believer in CP, but this is getting hard to defend while seeing YouTube videos go up about "excellence in mission accomplishment".

We are releasing it to commanders this week, and the membership as a whole on Monday.  It will be effective 1 FEB 2018. (units can transition to the new fitness program immediately, at their option.)

Ned Lee
"Dude"
(National Cadet Program Manager)
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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,612

« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 05:04:07 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 05:20:49 PM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 05:55:50 PM »

[
It's November now.  Judging from what I've read and heard, this is going to be a sizeable shift in how CP is managed/administered, even if you only take the fitness changes into account (not to mention SDAs).

If it's done, release it; if it's not, don't tell people it's getting released in October and going live in January.  The squadrons are trying to give CAP the best cadet program possible.  Give them the most rudimentary, basic tool to do so (this reg, the Cliff Notes that are out there now don't count) and give them adequate time (at least a month ago) to read it and plan for implementation on 1 January. 

Come on, dudes.  I'm a true believer in CP, but this is getting hard to defend while seeing YouTube videos go up about "excellence in mission accomplishment".

We are releasing it to commanders this week, and the membership as a whole on Monday.  It will be effective 1 FEB 2018. (units can transition to the new fitness program immediately, at their option.)

Ned Lee
"Dude"
(National Cadet Program Manager)


Excellent. Thanks for making sure we’re taken care of.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 06:26:17 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

What controversy?  I'm good friends with Marines that were part of the TRAP that went into get him. I hadn't heard of anything that takes away from his service. Did he make an adult film? Slap a hooker on COPS.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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tim.gardiner@gmail.com
SarDragon
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 06:42:48 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

What controversy?  I'm good friends with Marines that were part of the TRAP that went into get him. I hadn't heard of anything that takes away from his service. Did he make an adult film? Slap a hooker on COPS.

The worst thing I've seen him do was the abysmal performance on the olde CPPT video we had to endure back in the day (almost always a Saturday). His public presentation skills were seriously lacking. Many folks remember him from that.
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Dave Bowles
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abdsp51
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 07:45:58 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

Could you endure what he went through?
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PHall
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Posts: 5,877

« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 08:19:01 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

Could you endure what he went through?

The SERE guys use him as an example of what not to do.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 08:41:12 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

Could you endure what he went through?

The SERE guys use him as an example of what not to do.

Did he survive? Sounds like he passed.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2017, 10:34:26 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

Could you endure what he went through?

The SERE guys use him as an example of what not to do.

Did he survive? Sounds like he passed.

Cs get degrees.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2017, 10:45:24 PM »

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

Could you endure what he went through?

The SERE guys use him as an example of what not to do.

That may very well be the case but to call the guy out if you can't hack what he went through is bunk.  He may be used as an exampleas you put it of what not to do, but can be an example of what to do.  He got shot down, he survived 6 days in hostile territory,  and he was recovered with a hostile force nearby.  Sounds to me like a combination of luck and training doing what it was suppose to do. 

Never had the opportunity to go through SERE, but I have deployed and I have looked our enemies in the eye face to face and walked away. 
I have had mortars, rockets and who knows what else shot at me and walked away from it.  Regardless of which side of the fence you are on the man did what he was asked to do. 
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A.Member
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2017, 11:02:57 PM »

Quote from: PHall
The SERE guys use him as an example of what not to do.
Fact. 

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

What controversy?  I'm good friends with Marines that were part of the TRAP that went into get him. I hadn't heard of anything that takes away from his service. Did he make an adult film? Slap a hooker on COPS.
O-Grady was a mission that arguably never should've been needed and he ultimately was rescued in spite of himself and his actions.

Let's just say his reputation isn't particularly good, especially in the SERE community.  It's not all that great among the F-16 community either.

I'll leave it to you to do the additional research on your own.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 12:22:59 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
stillamarine
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2017, 09:05:50 AM »

Quote from: PHall
The SERE guys use him as an example of what not to do.
Fact. 

Aside...as it pertains to:  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/News__Innovations_2017web_DF5FE7B21912E.pdf

Not sure I agree with O'Grady being named as a CAP cadet "Alumni of Honor".  IMO, there's a fair amount of controversy in naming him with such a title.  He's famous/notorious? but not necessarily a shining star.

What controversy?  I'm good friends with Marines that were part of the TRAP that went into get him. I hadn't heard of anything that takes away from his service. Did he make an adult film? Slap a hooker on COPS.
O-Grady was a mission that arguably never should've been needed and he ultimately was rescued in spite of himself and his actions.

Let's just say his reputation isn't particularly good, especially in the SERE community.  It's not all that great among the F-16 community either.

I'll leave it to you to do the additional research on your own.

Why do I have to do research on a claim that YOU made. That's not how it works. Until you present REAL facts that he is a controversy than I see no reason he should not be honored. I went through SERE a few years after his incident. I didn't hear anything negative about him.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
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tim.gardiner@gmail.com
kwe1009
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Posts: 758

« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2017, 10:58:09 AM »

Just because an individual was shot down, wounded, captured, etc does not make them a hero.  It is how they react to those things that makes a person a hero.

In a previous military unit that I was leading, many people earned a Purple Heart after being wounding in an attack on our base.  They were in bed sleeping and were cut by flying glass.  I don't consider myself not most of the members of my team as being heroes simply because they were cut by flying glass. I consider some of them heroes because of how they reacted afterward.

Can we get back to talking about CAPM 60-1 now?
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stillamarine
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2017, 11:24:54 AM »

Just because an individual was shot down, wounded, captured, etc does not make them a hero.  It is how they react to those things that makes a person a hero.

In a previous military unit that I was leading, many people earned a Purple Heart after being wounding in an attack on our base.  They were in bed sleeping and were cut by flying glass.  I don't consider myself not most of the members of my team as being heroes simply because they were cut by flying glass. I consider some of them heroes because of how they reacted afterward.

Can we get back to talking about CAPM 60-1 now?

Did he live? Did he evade capture? Was he rescued? He did all that was required of him. Is he a hero? Maybe, maybe not. But is there some huge controversy that he should be considered less of a person? Did he do anything less than many of the other honorees? Hell if we want to get technical half of what the other people did were not that much heroic either. If you ask me only two or three are maybe real heroes. The rest are recognized for accomplishing something.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2017, 11:27:58 AM »

Never change, CAPTalk. Never change.
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Pace
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2017, 01:01:44 PM »

We're done here folks. This thread is supposed to be about 60-1.
*click*
[When 60-1 is posted publicly, a new thread can be started]
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: CAPM 60-1
 


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