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Author Topic: The AFA Prep School "Incident"...  (Read 5224 times)
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,145

« on: September 29, 2017, 01:52:38 PM »

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/09/29/air-force-academy-head-tells-racists-get-oudelivers-stern-lecture-wake-racial-slurs-found-prep-schoo/715755001/

I expect no less of our US Air Force...
Thank you Gen Silveria.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 03:35:06 PM by SarDragon » Logged
NIN
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 08:06:27 PM »

Man, love it when the general is completely unambiguous in his speech. Zero room for interpretation.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
LGM30GMCC
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Posts: 318

« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 08:46:00 PM »

This is exactly the kind of leadership that is needed to respond to this kind of incident.
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Cicero
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Unit: TBKS

« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2017, 01:46:19 AM »

http://www.kktv.com/content/news/BREAKING-Reported-active-shooter-at-the-United-States-Air-Force-Academy-448771323.html

U.S. AIR FORCE ACADEMY, (KKTV) - Officials and cadets at the Air Force Academy received an alert of an active shooter late Friday night.

The report came in at about 10 p.m., at about 11:25 p.m. the Academy tweeted, "We received reports of active shooter on Academy grounds. There are no confirmation of shots fired. Security forces are sweeping the area."

An alert came through text message and noted the reported shooting may have happened near the prep school or possibly near Vandenberg Hall .

The El Paso County Sheriff's Office confirmed via twitter they are investigating a report of shots fired.

11 News is working to confirm the incident with officials at the Academy. As of 11:25 p.m., it isn't clear if anyone was injured or who was involved.

A man reached out to 11 News stating he was the father of the woman who called police. He tells us his daughter heard shots, but is okay and with authorities.

This is a developing story and as more information becomes available this article will be updated.
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Cicero
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2017, 02:28:50 AM »

http://www.kktv.com/content/news/BREAKING-Reported-active-shooter-at-the-United-States-Air-Force-Academy-448771323.html

U.S. AIR FORCE ACADEMY, (KKTV) - Officials and cadets at the Air Force Academy received an alert of an active shooter late Friday night.

The report came in at about 10 p.m., at about 11:25 p.m. the Academy tweeted, "We received reports of active shooter on Academy grounds. There are no confirmation of shots fired. Security forces are sweeping the area."

An alert came through text message and noted the reported shooting may have happened near the prep school or possibly near Vandenberg Hall .

The El Paso County Sheriff's Office confirmed via twitter they are investigating a report of shots fired.

11 News is working to confirm the incident with officials at the Academy. As of 11:25 p.m., it isn't clear if anyone was injured or who was involved.

A man reached out to 11 News stating he was the father of the woman who called police. He tells us his daughter heard shots, but is okay and with authorities.

This is a developing story and as more information becomes available this article will be updated.

EPCSheriff‏Verified account
@EPCSheriff

Law-enforcement has completed a search of the dorms on Air Force Academy grounds. No injuries and no active shooter.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,877

« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2017, 10:50:48 AM »

Why would the El Paso County Sheriff Department even be on the Academy in the first place?
They have no jurisdiction and there's a whole squadron of Air Force Security Forces on base to handle security.
They might invite the Sheriff on base to help, but, the Air Force would be the lead agency and should be the only agency to make a news release.
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Spam
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Posts: 963
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2017, 02:23:56 PM »


Great video there on clearly putting the position forward and cleaning house. Thanks FW for posting that.


Perhaps the USAFA can go help the Army set things right and clean house at USMA, where a former CAP cadet, Spenser Rapone was apparently mentored by Rasheed Hosein, a now-suspended professor of islamic history, and (arguably) radicalized while inside USMA:

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-west-point-communist-saga WARNING: STRONG LANGUAGE (from Rapone).


R/s
Spam


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Nick
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2017, 02:48:04 PM »

Why would the El Paso County Sheriff Department even be on the Academy in the first place?
They have no jurisdiction and there's a whole squadron of Air Force Security Forces on base to handle security.
They might invite the Sheriff on base to help, but, the Air Force would be the lead agency and should be the only agency to make a news release.
Bexar County Sheriff did the same thing when there was the shooter at Lackland that killed his squadron commander. I don’t particularly like the idea, but I understand the whys.


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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
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abdsp51
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2017, 03:19:47 PM »

Why would the El Paso County Sheriff Department even be on the Academy in the first place?
They have no jurisdiction and there's a whole squadron of Air Force Security Forces on base to handle security.
They might invite the Sheriff on base to help, but, the Air Force would be the lead agency and should be the only agency to make a news release.

That you know of.  And contrary to popular belief not every piece of land on a DoD installation is sole jurisdiction of the base.  There are typically 4 different types of jurisdiction on the installation and they are:

Exclusive - DoD has sole jurisdiction
Concurrent - Shared between DoD and local Govt
Proprietary - DoD exercises property rights only (exception is offenses committed by those subject to Art 2 of the UCMJ)
Reciprocal - Shared between all branches. 

If the event occurred on an area not exclusive then it would stand to reason that it's the Sheriffs or local PDs baby to run with.  If in Proprietary then it is solely the Sheriffs or local PDs baby if the offense is committed by someone not falling under the UCMJ. 

Now there is a good chance that the Academy's SF has a MOU/MOA for mutual aide with the local authorities which is not uncommon.  And depending on what type of jurisdiction and the nature of the incident the AF would not be the lead agency. 

Plus these days LE skills are not as common within SFS units as they once were.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,877

« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2017, 03:39:37 PM »

Why would the El Paso County Sheriff Department even be on the Academy in the first place?
They have no jurisdiction and there's a whole squadron of Air Force Security Forces on base to handle security.
They might invite the Sheriff on base to help, but, the Air Force would be the lead agency and should be the only agency to make a news release.

That you know of.  And contrary to popular belief not every piece of land on a DoD installation is sole jurisdiction of the base.  There are typically 4 different types of jurisdiction on the installation and they are:

Exclusive - DoD has sole jurisdiction
Concurrent - Shared between DoD and local Govt
Proprietary - DoD exercises property rights only (exception is offenses committed by those subject to Art 2 of the UCMJ)
Reciprocal - Shared between all branches. 

If the event occurred on an area not exclusive then it would stand to reason that it's the Sheriffs or local PDs baby to run with.  If in Proprietary then it is solely the Sheriffs or local PDs baby if the offense is committed by someone not falling under the UCMJ. 

Now there is a good chance that the Academy's SF has a MOU/MOA for mutual aide with the local authorities which is not uncommon.  And depending on what type of jurisdiction and the nature of the incident the AF would not be the lead agency. 

Plus these days LE skills are not as common within SFS units as they once were.

The only police vehicles I've ever seen on base at the Academy have been Air Force Security Forces.
Remember, this is one of the Air Force's showplaces. Image is everything there.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2017, 04:10:55 PM »

The only police vehicles I've ever seen on base at the Academy have been Air Force Security Forces.
Remember, this is one of the Air Force's showplaces. Image is everything there.

I am well aware the AFA is an AF showplace and yes you will generally only find SF vehicles on the yard day to day, but it is not uncommon to find outside agencies on the yard as well. It will all depend on the incident and the jurisdiction.  I have had local PD and SO come to base numerous times to handle incidents, not because we wouldn't handle them but because of the jurisdictional lines. 

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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2017, 06:11:11 PM »

Why would the El Paso County Sheriff Department even be on the Academy in the first place?
They have no jurisdiction and there's a whole squadron of Air Force Security Forces on base to handle security.
They might invite the Sheriff on base to help, but, the Air Force would be the lead agency and should be the only agency to make a news release.

For all we know, they have MOUs, used “unified command” per ICS, and decided that sheriff would take the lead on media relations. (How many USAF PAO people have experience with media for incidents like this)?

But, we don’t know. Everything I wrote is as speculative as what you wrote.


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stillamarine
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2017, 11:07:05 AM »

First of all, we have no idea whose dispatch the initial 911 call went into. Dialing 911 while standing in the exact spot of an incident does not guarantee that you are connected with the exact jurisdiction for the location. Don't believe me. Stand on the edges of a city and call 911 and see how many times you are transferred til you get the right jurisdiction. In an active shooter situation or anything major like that the notifications go out to every agency nearby, local, state, county, federal, etc. We had an active shooter here a couple years ago. Everyone responded, including AFNG Security Forces from ANGB Birmingham. It's the nature of cops. My dispatcher put out a 10-33 (emergency call) when I was in a gun fight a long time ago. By the end there was 100 cops there from all 4 of our precincts, county, state and even federal. And I appreciated every one of them. Another reason outside agencies may have been brought in is that maybe the SF on USAFA don't have some of the equipment or training needed to successfully address an active shooter event. The way cops have responded to active shooter events has changed dramatically over the last few years. I'm an instructor in my state and it's changed 3 times in the 9 years I've been doing it.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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raivo
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 02:05:36 AM »

Why would the El Paso County Sheriff Department even be on the Academy in the first place?
They have no jurisdiction and there's a whole squadron of Air Force Security Forces on base to handle security.
They might invite the Sheriff on base to help, but, the Air Force would be the lead agency and should be the only agency to make a news release.

For all we know, they have MOUs, used “unified command” per ICS, and decided that sheriff would take the lead on media relations. (How many USAF PAO people have experience with media for incidents like this)?

But, we don’t know. Everything I wrote is as speculative as what you wrote.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wasn't exactly following play-by-play as far as who said what when, but the AF was doing their own PA thing at the same time. I got a text from Command Post about it shortly after it kicked off, which was right about the time the "BREAKING NEWS" articles started.
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Johnny Yuma
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Posts: 594

« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2017, 08:41:14 PM »

I'm hoping that the prep school determined the writings were legit and ID'd the doer's before the General made his statement. FWIW around here most every racial incident like this has been determined to have been a hoax or overblown out of proportion by design.

The most recent was a Sukkah put up by some Jewish students at Kansas State for Sukkot was destroyed. The university president, ex- USAF General Richard Myers, made a big stink over it being an act of antisemitism before they discovered that it was actually a windstorm that knocked it down. Oops...

As far as the active shooter, military relations with civilian law enforcement is a complex relationship that seems to vry from bse to base. Back in the 80's it was common to see Wichita PD and Sedgewick Co. Sheriff on MCConnell AFB and despite being a locked down SAC base were routinely waved through as a matter of routine. The active shooter incident on Fairchilld AFB in 1994 at the Base Hospital not only did local LE agencies respond but local civilian LE took the lead investigating the homicides by both the shooter and the SP that put him down, along with AFOSI. So it wouldn't surprise me if the AFA had a similar working relationship with the local gendarmes.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:45:21 PM by Johnny Yuma » Logged
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
abdsp51
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Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2017, 09:08:22 PM »

I'm hoping that the prep school determined the writings were legit and ID'd the doer's before the General made his statement. FWIW around here most every racial incident like this has been determined to have been a hoax or overblown out of proportion by design.

The most recent was a Sukkah put up by some Jewish students at Kansas State for Sukkot was destroyed. The university president, ex- USAF General Richard Myers, made a big stink over it being an act of antisemitism before they discovered that it was actually a windstorm that knocked it down. Oops...

As far as the active shooter, military relations with civilian law enforcement is a complex relationship that seems to vry from bse to base. Back in the 80's it was common to see Wichita PD and Sedgewick Co. Sheriff on MCConnell AFB and despite being a locked down SAC base were routinely waved through as a matter of routine. The active shooter incident on Fairchilld AFB in 1994 at the Base Hospital not only did local LE agencies respond but local civilian LE took the lead investigating the homicides by both the shooter and the SP that put him down, along with AFOSI. So it wouldn't surprise me if the AFA had a similar working relationship with the local gendarmes.

Yep.  Sad things is for the Fairchild cop.  He got put through the ringer for it even after it was deemed a good shoot. 
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Johnny Yuma
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Posts: 594

« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2017, 10:36:34 PM »

I'm hoping that the prep school determined the writings were legit and ID'd the doer's before the General made his statement. FWIW around here most every racial incident like this has been determined to have been a hoax or overblown out of proportion by design.

The most recent was a Sukkah put up by some Jewish students at Kansas State for Sukkot was destroyed. The university president, ex- USAF General Richard Myers, made a big stink over it being an act of antisemitism before they discovered that it was actually a windstorm that knocked it down. Oops...

As far as the active shooter, military relations with civilian law enforcement is a complex relationship that seems to vry from bse to base. Back in the 80's it was common to see Wichita PD and Sedgewick Co. Sheriff on MCConnell AFB and despite being a locked down SAC base were routinely waved through as a matter of routine. The active shooter incident on Fairchilld AFB in 1994 at the Base Hospital not only did local LE agencies respond but local civilian LE took the lead investigating the homicides by both the shooter and the SP that put him down, along with AFOSI. So it wouldn't surprise me if the AFA had a similar working relationship with the local gendarmes.

Yep.  Sad things is for the Fairchild cop.  He got put through the ringer for it even after it was deemed a good shoot.

Yep. Andy Brown was the Sky cop who took the BG down, he's recently written a book about that fiasco as well as the B52 crash that occurred earlier that week. To say that there was a fundamental failure of base leadership at the time is a massive understatement.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 11:33:31 PM by Johnny Yuma » Logged
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
Cicero
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 09:29:25 AM »

To ponder in the absence of news: https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/37909/
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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 08:48:17 PM »

I'm hoping that the prep school determined the writings were legit and ID'd the doer's before the General made his statement. FWIW around here most every racial incident like this has been determined to have been a hoax or overblown out of proportion by design.

The most recent was a Sukkah put up by some Jewish students at Kansas State for Sukkot was destroyed. The university president, ex- USAF General Richard Myers, made a big stink over it being an act of antisemitism before they discovered that it was actually a windstorm that knocked it down. Oops...

I agree with you. The general basically did what he thought would be good for PR and protect his position. He knew nothing beyond there was some writing on a board. It was in an area that cadets  do not normally go. Remember, this was a dorm for people that did not have the academics to get in, the group of people blamed do not go there.

Besides it sounding like slang, many civilian worker with private companies go in and out. Who knows.

Take a look at the quote below. Over 1/2 the college's athletes come from this program, and they are not even cadets, they are cadet candidates. I have long believed colleges should drop the athletics, it is a waste of money and most of the college crime is committed by athletes.

So the general blames scholarly cadets with no proof or investigation whatsoever.

More than 50% if these "cadet candidates" are let for the athletic program. They are selected by coaches, as far as I can tell never served in the military. Read this about how people get into the Air Force Academy these days. http://www.ncsasports.org/athletic-scholarships/football/colorado/united-states-air-force-academy#

Quote
The Colorado Springs-area prep school, whose student body traditionally includes more than 50% recruited athletes, gives cadet candidates a year of rigorous tutoring to help them meet the academy's strict academic standards.


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FW
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Posts: 2,145

« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 08:28:54 AM »

No one accused AFAPS cadet candidates OR AFA cadets with this! The General simply stated that the Air Force has no tolerance for such behavior or action.  Any other interpretation or rationalization of this incident should not be accepted. 

The AFA prep school also has a large contingent of CAP cadets enrolled as students/cadet candidates. ALL take the oath of enlistment when they arrive.  It would be against our "Core Values" to malign them, or any other AFAPS cadet candidate

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PHall
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2017, 10:29:49 AM »

Don't feed the Troll...
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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2017, 10:31:38 AM »

No one accused AFAPS cadet candidates OR AFA cadets with this! The General simply stated that the Air Force has no tolerance for such behavior or action.  Any other interpretation or rationalization of this incident should not be accepted. 

The AFA prep school also has a large contingent of CAP cadets enrolled as students/cadet candidates. ALL take the oath of enlistment when they arrive.  It would be against our "Core Values" to malign them, or any other AFAPS cadet candidate
The general gave a "blistering" and angry speech on "tolerance" where he berated the cadets sort of like a principal will berate middle school kids that got into a cafeteria food fight. They were publicly berated with no evidence. That is wrong.

Sports coaches that never were in the military are selecting for the AFA. There are two sets of rules, one for recruited athletes and another for merit cadets (You know, like the CAP Cadets). Those slots should go to CAP Cadets. A shocking number of non-merit athletes are let into the AFA.

There was a Cadet at West Point that said football players at the academies should not stand for the National Anthem. Were cadets like him ever berated publicly?

Read the quote below from LTC Heffington about West Point.
Quote
we routinely admit athletes with ACT scores in the mid-teens across the board. I have personally taught cadets who are borderline illiterate and cannot read simple passages from the assigned textbooks.

 The plebe American History course has been revamped to focus completely on race and on the narrative that America is founded solely on a history of racial oppression. Cadets derisively call it the “I Hate America Course.” Simultaneously, the plebe International History course now focuses on gender to the exclusion of many other important themes. On the other hand, an entire semester of military history was recently deleted from the curriculum (at West Point!).

 Cadets are jaded, cynical, arrogant, and entitled. They routinely talk back to and snap at their instructors (military and civilian alike), challenge authority, and openly refuse to follow regulations

effort to tum the institution into a third-rate civilian liberal arts college. Unfortunately, they have largely succeeded. The few remaining members of the staff and faculty who are still trying to hold the line are routinely berated, ignored, and ultimately silenced

http://americanmilitarynews.com/2017/10/exclusive-former-west-point-professors-letter-exposes-corruption-cheating-and-failing-standards-full-letter/





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Cicero
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2017, 11:37:49 AM »

LTC Heffington makes an horrific but probably correct point. Very sad.
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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2017, 01:03:02 PM »

LTC Heffington makes an horrific but probably correct point. Very sad.


The good news is the new Secretary of Defense is making positive changes. I predict better academies  over the next few years.
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Cicero
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2017, 03:28:04 PM »

LTC Heffington makes an horrific but probably correct point. Very sad.


The good news is the new Secretary of Defense is making positive changes. I predict better academies  over the next few years.
If you have links, please share to spread the cheer.
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Cicero
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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2017, 08:57:21 PM »

Cadet candidate found responsible for racist messages at USAFA Prep school


http://www.koaa.com/story/36788200/cadet-candidate-found-responsible-for-racist-messages-at-usafa-prep-school

An investigation by the US Air Force Academy has determined a cadet who reported a racist message outside their dorm room is the person responsible for the messages left on several message boards.

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Johnny Yuma
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2017, 08:51:56 AM »

Cadet candidate found responsible for racist messages at USAFA Prep school


http://www.koaa.com/story/36788200/cadet-candidate-found-responsible-for-racist-messages-at-usafa-prep-school

An investigation by the US Air Force Academy has determined a cadet who reported a racist message outside their dorm room is the person responsible for the messages left on several message boards.

I'm sure we'll be receiving "Ooops, my bad for falsely accusing my students of being racists" speeches from Generals Myers and Silvera anytime, right? [/sarcasm]
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"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
jeders
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Posts: 2,013

« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2017, 10:10:21 AM »

Cadet candidate found responsible for racist messages at USAFA Prep school


http://www.koaa.com/story/36788200/cadet-candidate-found-responsible-for-racist-messages-at-usafa-prep-school

An investigation by the US Air Force Academy has determined a cadet who reported a racist message outside their dorm room is the person responsible for the messages left on several message boards.

I'm sure we'll be receiving "Ooops, my bad for falsely accusing my students of being racists" speeches from Generals Myers and Silvera anytime, right? [/sarcasm]

Why would they? A cadet still did something which was unacceptable. The message still holds, if you do this kind of stuff, you have no place in the Air Force.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2017, 10:11:48 AM »

Cadet candidate found responsible for racist messages at USAFA Prep school


http://www.koaa.com/story/36788200/cadet-candidate-found-responsible-for-racist-messages-at-usafa-prep-school

An investigation by the US Air Force Academy has determined a cadet who reported a racist message outside their dorm room is the person responsible for the messages left on several message boards.

I had a feeling that was going to happen.  I saw someone else (non-military) got caught doing something similar.  He spray painted his car with racial slurs and blamed it on racists (I guess to get his 5 minutes of fame) but didn't realize his apartment complex has security cameras.

Racism is alive all over the world and in all forms.  I do not understand the logic that some people use to think it is a good idea to do these things.  Unfortunately the news of the "AFA Incident" was front page news all over the country and sparked many "knowledgeable" people to write about how the US military is just a training ground for white supremacists.  I doubt the same media who was so fast to condemn the military as a racist wasteland will put much effort into reporting who was really responsible for this.

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Cicero
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2017, 10:20:45 AM »

I doubt the same media who was so fast to condemn the military as a racist wasteland will put much effort into reporting who was really responsible for this.

I hope the CG at least readdresses the cadets and apologizes for accusing them of racism based on this hoax.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2017, 10:24:11 AM »

I doubt the same media who was so fast to condemn the military as a racist wasteland will put much effort into reporting who was really responsible for this.

I hope the CG at least readdresses the cadets and apologizes for accusing them of racism based on this hoax.

Will never happen as we all know.  It was a great speech but it just shows that you should not jump to conclusions.  The general was trying to defuse a situation that did not exist. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist at the AFA, but it certainly isn't the overt and vocal racism that this hopefully former cadet was trying to create.
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« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2017, 11:33:35 AM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/08/a-black-student-wrote-those-racist-messages-that-shook-the-air-force-academy/?utm_term=.85cad57ef354
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2017, 12:04:42 PM »

I do not know why some members are stating the CG has to apologize. He does not. The member responsible was a cadet so he is still right!
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2017, 12:18:58 PM »

I do not know why some members are stating the CG has to apologize. He does not. The member responsible was a cadet so he is still right!
1 - Not a cadet, a prep school candidate,
2 - The tenor of the speech implied that a cadet was responsible
3 - This type of hoax ought to be specifically called out and condemned as it degrades the entire system
4 - I hold out little hope that the PC world of higher ed (and the service academies now graduate open communists so they are clearly part of the academic swamp) will do the right thing.
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2017, 12:49:02 PM »

The general gave a "blistering" and angry speech on "tolerance" where he berated the cadets sort of like a principal will berate middle school kids that got into a cafeteria food fight. They were publicly berated with no evidence. That is wrong.

Sports coaches that never were in the military are selecting for the AFA. There are two sets of rules, one for recruited athletes and another for merit cadets (You know, like the CAP Cadets). Those slots should go to CAP Cadets. A shocking number of non-merit athletes are let into the AFA.

There was a Cadet at West Point that said football players at the academies should not stand for the National Anthem. Were cadets like him ever berated publicly?

Read the quote below from LTC Heffington about West Point.
Quote
we routinely admit athletes with ACT scores in the mid-teens across the board. I have personally taught cadets who are borderline illiterate and cannot read simple passages from the assigned textbooks.

 The plebe American History course has been revamped to focus completely on race and on the narrative that America is founded solely on a history of racial oppression. Cadets derisively call it the “I Hate America Course.” Simultaneously, the plebe International History course now focuses on gender to the exclusion of many other important themes. On the other hand, an entire semester of military history was recently deleted from the curriculum (at West Point!).

 Cadets are jaded, cynical, arrogant, and entitled. They routinely talk back to and snap at their instructors (military and civilian alike), challenge authority, and openly refuse to follow regulations

effort to tum the institution into a third-rate civilian liberal arts college. Unfortunately, they have largely succeeded. The few remaining members of the staff and faculty who are still trying to hold the line are routinely berated, ignored, and ultimately silenced

http://americanmilitarynews.com/2017/10/exclusive-former-west-point-professors-letter-exposes-corruption-cheating-and-failing-standards-full-letter/

Correct. He needs to do a followup. In my opinion. Not that he cares about my opinion.
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HGjunkie
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2017, 12:56:09 PM »

2 - The tenor of the speech implied that a cadet was responsible

False.

4 - I hold out little hope that the PC world of higher ed (and the service academies now graduate open communists so they are clearly part of the academic swamp) will do the right thing.

The message shouldn't change because the person was identified. Frankly, our Supt doesn't need to do anything about it.
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2017, 01:16:27 PM »

I do not know why some members are stating the CG has to apologize. He does not. The member responsible was a cadet so he is still right!
1 - Not a cadet, a prep school candidate,
2 - The tenor of the speech implied that a cadet was responsible
3 - This type of hoax ought to be specifically called out and condemned as it degrades the entire system
4 - I hold out little hope that the PC world of higher ed (and the service academies now graduate open communists so they are clearly part of the academic swamp) will do the right thing.

The commandant of the Prep School reports to the Supe, General Silveria, thus the Prep School is part of USAFA in the broadest sense.  You'll note that General Silveria had at that gathering in Mitchell Hall folks from 10th ABW, the Prep School and all the civilian and military staff of USAFA. IOW: essentially everybody at C-Springs.

He was speaking of (and to) "everybody at USAFA," not specifically cadets.

His "tenor" was basically "someone here on this base did this," not "it was a cadet!"  Cadet Wing cadets don't really have access to the Prep School. Its away from the Cadet Area and not really a place traveled by cadets from the Cadet Wing. Sure, a cadet could have done it, but a disgruntled TSgt from the Civil Engineering Squadron could have done it, too.

In the long term, yes, it was a "hoax," but really, the General was right: someone at USAFA did this. But still: someone there had to hold forth some belief or ethos that was not in keeping with the highest traditions and standards of the Air Force and the DoD. That it was one of the cadets affected who perpetrated the messages, well, that just makes it worse (for him/her).

Remember: While we think that USAFA, along with USMA and USNA, are supposed to be our "gold standards" of military officer education, I'm here to tell you that we need to remind ourselves that the people who go to C-Spring, Annapolis and West Point are, at the end of the day, still young people, college students, and officers in training.  They are not that far removed from the cadets we interact with every day, complete with personalities, foibles and quirks. Some have even less of a "background" in ethics and leadership than our cadets do, and come from all kinds of interesting backgrounds and experiences.  So many of them are literally just now coming to grips with the realities of military life, military ethics, military leadership, all while having to live in a college dorm, but under considerably different rules and strictures than their civilian counterparts, in an environment that is pretty alien.

But they still have spirit runs and other goofy "college" traditions that we don't traditionally associate with the military. They're not faceless automatons who are incapable of mistake or are "super soldiers." They're still 22-23 year old "newbies" when they graduate and pin on 2nd Lt.  In my experience (and YMMV, so I will freely admit not being the end-all here), service academy graduates tend to be a little socially and militarily "stunted" sometimes compared to their peers from ROTC and OCS.  Its like they spent 4 years on their own extra-special island of misfit toys with extremely limited interactions off the island. Kind of how sometimes our cadets have this weird "impression" of how things work in the real world.

I'd be a little careful how I characterize the "PC world of higher ed" creeping into the Service academies. While yes, it is happening, its probably still not happening at the rate of their civilian counterparts.

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SarDragon
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2017, 01:21:30 PM »

OK, folks, we now have a single thread on this. There was no need for a second one. The two threads have been merged into this one, and the non-relevant posts have been removed.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2017, 02:14:20 PM »

OK, folks, we now have a single thread on this. There was no need for a second one. The two threads have been merged into this one, and the non-relevant posts have been removed.

This was reported in prior posts.

http://www.bbc.com/news/41909791 

and 

http://gazette.com/air-force-academy-finds-cadet-candidate-responsible-for-racist-messages/article/1614770


We don't need this sort of behavior, regardless of whether for self serving or "noble" purposes.  It is very disappointing from just about every perspective I can imagine.

:(
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:31:28 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
Cicero
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2017, 02:48:08 PM »

"We would also be tone deaf not to think about the backdrop of what is going on in our country," Silveria told cadets, referencing the recent violence in Charlottesville, Va., Ferguson, Mo., and controversial protests in the NFL in which dozens of players have knelt during the national anthem.

The clear tone and tenor was that there was a racist in the midst and that was wrong.
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2017, 03:15:52 PM »

"We would also be tone deaf not to think about the backdrop of what is going on in our country," Silveria told cadets, referencing the recent violence in Charlottesville, Va., Ferguson, Mo., and controversial protests in the NFL in which dozens of players have knelt during the national anthem.

The clear tone and tenor was that there was a racist in the midst and that was wrong.

And that was inaccurate? 

Is having a racist in your midst, especially in a uniformed service, not wrong?



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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2017, 03:46:28 PM »

And that was inaccurate? 
In essence, yes. The perp was not a white racist. This was a hoax crime not a hate crime.

Is having a racist in your midst, especially in a uniformed service, not wrong?
Absolutely. But the Honor Code is the issue, not race. In my humble opinion, at least.

BTW I hate the two dimensional nature of conversations like these. We are probably substantially on the same page regards the big picture.
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« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2017, 03:52:53 PM »

I'm sure we are both on the same page.

I agree on the honor code issue.

I also think its a racism issue, hoax or not.

Were I to call the cops and report that I got "beat up and robbed by a couple black guys," and it was later found out that, no, I made the whole thing up out of whole cloth, am I a liar, a racist, or both?

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« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2017, 05:02:47 PM »

Were I to call the cops and report that I got "beat up and robbed by a couple black guys," and it was later found out that, no, I made the whole thing up out of whole cloth, am I a liar, a racist, or both?
Sadly, in today's culture that depends on your race.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2017, 05:45:31 PM »

This was a 100% win for the general and the USAFA, trying to make it into something else fails.

Someone tried to stir things up through epithets intended to intimidate. One could conjecture the
intent was to try and insinuate that USAFA was an institutionally racist organization and hoping for a lukewarm
response that could further an agenda.  It literally doesn't matter who did it, it was done.

The direct, unequivocal response showed the world that these sorts of attempts to intimidate would not
be tolerated, and in fact would be met with swift, immediate justice, something sorely lacking in the
world of the "Daily Outrage" and "click-based advocacy".

Not only did the person in question fail in their attempt to intimidate, or stir controversy, they showed themselves
to be both troubled or misguided at best, and the act was ultimately counter to the initial purpose.

Painting it any other way is some weird attempt to politicize it beyond the scope, and is a waste of time,
pursued by those with an agenda outside the reality of what occurred.

Discussing it here seems to be an attempt to somehow connect it to CAP, which it isn't an anyway,
beyond the tangential and circumstantial connection to CAP's parent service.

Beyond a lesson in leading from the front, what's the point here?
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« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2017, 10:06:30 PM »

I hope the CG at least readdresses the cadets and apologizes for accusing them of racism based on this hoax.

Technically the General's comments could have been intended for the lying jerk who used the all too common SJW hoax... 
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jeders
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« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2017, 09:54:00 AM »

The perp was not a white racist.

So that makes it ok?

Quote
This was a hoax crime not a hate crime.

No, all crimes are hate crimes. The "perp" had hate in his heart somewhere when he did this. He knew what he was doing was wrong and was called out for it by the general.
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« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2017, 05:46:48 PM »

I hope the CG at least readdresses the cadets and apologizes for accusing them of racism based on this hoax.

Technically the General's comments could have been intended for the lying jerk who used the all too common SJW hoax...

If that were the case then why have the entire Academy stand down for an all-hands lecture to address a racial incident that didn't happen while ignoring the integrity and Honor Code violations that did? That makes zero sense.

It would have made far more sense to wait until the doer was identified and addressed the Academy on the importance of respect and the immense damage that occurs when incidents involving race and/or race based hoaxes happen.
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" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

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zippy
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2017, 08:06:31 PM »

I'm hoping that the prep school determined the writings were legit and ID'd the doer's before the General made his statement. FWIW around here most every racial incident like this has been determined to have been a  hoax or overblown out of proportion by design.

The most recent was a Sukkah put up by some Jewish students at Kansas State for Sukkot was destroyed. The university president, ex- USAF General Richard Myers, made a big stink over it being an act of antisemitism before they discovered that it was actually a windstorm that knocked it down. Oops...

Johnny Yuma got it right. A public apology is owed to the cadets for being publicly berated.
Check the date of the above quote, way back in October.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 08:15:10 PM by zippy » Logged
abdsp51
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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2017, 08:11:02 PM »

Johnny Yuma got it right. A public apology is owed to the cadets for being publicly berated.

Doesn't work that way.
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« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2017, 09:16:08 PM »

Quote
Johnny Yuma got it right. A public apology is owed to the cadets for being publicly berated.
Check the date of the above quote, way back in October.

Yep. Not gonna happen, but yep.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:43:51 PM by Cicero » Logged
Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2017, 09:23:08 PM »

No he does not.

In organizations the leaders need to address some situations that goes against the core. The leader has to take action addressing everyone to create conscience of the importance.

The commander saw some action(s) that in his view was not being given the importance he thought should have been given.

He addressed it, by pointing at all.

No apologies. Otherwise he would appear not only weak but reduce the importance of the issue in other's eyes.

No apologies. Ninguna excusa. Nyet. Nein.

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« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2017, 09:45:59 PM »

The commander saw some action(s) that in his view was not being given the importance he thought should have been given.
That is one opinion. Johnny got it right though. Further, another perspective can argue that the General saw a political opportunity to get cred from the hard left and took that, using (rather cynically) in that view, the entire Cadet Corps and prep school student body.
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Airplane girl
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« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2017, 09:57:59 PM »

I don't want to get too involved in this, but Gen Silviera did respond to finding out that it was a hoax.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/08/us/air-force-academy-racist-message-trnd/index.html

"Regardless of the circumstances under which those words were written, they were written, and that deserved to be addressed," he said. "You can never overemphasize the need for a culture of dignity and respect and those who don't understand those concepts aren't welcome here."

And I don't think he needs to apologize for anything, since all he did was make it very clear that students knew that racism would not be tolerated. Even though this one instance of racism was a hoax, that doesn't mean that racism and other forms of discrimination aren't issues that need to be addressed.
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« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2017, 10:08:09 PM »

I'm hoping that the prep school determined the writings were legit and ID'd the doer's before the General made his statement. FWIW around here most every racial incident like this has been determined to have been a  hoax or overblown out of proportion by design.

The most recent was a Sukkah put up by some Jewish students at Kansas State for Sukkot was destroyed. The university president, ex- USAF General Richard Myers, made a big stink over it being an act of antisemitism before they discovered that it was actually a windstorm that knocked it down. Oops...

Johnny Yuma got it right. A public apology is owed to the cadets for being publicly berated.
Check the date of the above quote, way back in October.

You're kidding, right? Because if you aren't then you know nothing about how the military world works.
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Cicero
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« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2017, 09:55:30 AM »

What the Air Force Academy hate crime hoax teaches us about the mainstream media and race
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/09/what-air-force-academy-hate-crime-hoax-teaches-us-about-mainstream-media-and-race.html

"As a black graduate of West Point, currently serving as an Army officer, I can say from my own experience that the military academies and the U.S. military are not racist institutions. Yet one unverified report by a student who concocted a false report about racism at the Air Force Academy fed the belief that racism directed against black Americans is everywhere in our society. "

(From the article.)

« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 03:28:26 PM by Cicero » Logged
Live2Learn
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« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2017, 10:07:22 AM »

What the Air Force Academy hate crime hoax teaches us about the mainstream media and race
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/09/what-air-force-academy-hate-crime-hoax-teaches-us-about-mainstream-media-and-race.html

Last paragraph in the Fox article bears repeating:

"Perhaps it’s time that America starts focusing on what binds us together instead of what tears us apart. In the complex and uncertain times that we live in, our country would benefit so much more from a spirit of unity than the media’s same old divisive narrative. "

As a card carrying optimist with a cynicism problem, I fear the media's profit motive will foil any retreat from the 'same old divisive narrative'.
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Cicero
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« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2017, 01:20:06 PM »


Last paragraph in the Fox article bears repeating:

"Perhaps it’s time that America starts focusing on what binds us together instead of what tears us apart. In the complex and uncertain times that we live in, our country would benefit so much more from a spirit of unity than the media’s same old divisive narrative. "

Agreed!
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« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2017, 02:08:35 PM »

What the Air Force Academy hate crime hoax teaches us about the mainstream media and race
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/09/what-air-force-academy-hate-crime-hoax-teaches-us-about-mainstream-media-and-race.html

As a black graduate of West Point, currently serving as an Army officer, I can say from my own experience that the military academies and the U.S. military are not racist institutions. Yet one unverified report by a student who concocted a false report about racism at the Air Force Academy fed the belief that racism directed against black Americans is everywhere in our society.

You may want to mod that, Cicero - it looks like you're making that statement yourself, rather than pasting a quote (unless that was your fox article)?

R/s,
Spam
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Cicero
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« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2017, 03:28:49 PM »

What the Air Force Academy hate crime hoax teaches us about the mainstream media and race
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/09/what-air-force-academy-hate-crime-hoax-teaches-us-about-mainstream-media-and-race.html

As a black graduate of West Point, currently serving as an Army officer, I can say from my own experience that the military academies and the U.S. military are not racist institutions. Yet one unverified report by a student who concocted a false report about racism at the Air Force Academy fed the belief that racism directed against black Americans is everywhere in our society.

You may want to mod that, Cicero - it looks like you're making that statement yourself, rather than pasting a quote (unless that was your fox article)?

R/s,
Spam

Done, thanks!
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Cicero
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« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2017, 04:03:42 AM »

Wild Blue Yonder
A general’s overwrought response to a race hoax at the Air Force Academy was off-base.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/wild-blue-yonder-15576.html
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FW
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« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2017, 10:33:40 AM »

Wild Blue Yonder
A general’s overwrought response to a race hoax at the Air Force Academy was off-base.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/wild-blue-yonder-15576.html

Thanks for stating an opinion which is not shared by many others.  This "hoax" was made by an individual who did not belong at the Prep School.  The Commandant made a statement, which I happen to agree with, and his follow up makes sense to all except those who do not understand the difference between Corps and Corpse.  There isn't much more to say on this topic, however I am disappointed we have members here on CT and members in CAP who don't understand the real meaning of the General's statements. 
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Cicero
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« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2017, 11:47:03 AM »

Thanks for stating an opinion which is not shared by many others.
In fact many do agree.
This "hoax" was made by an individual who did not belong at the Prep School. 
"Hoax"? It was a hate crime, not a hoax.
The Commandant made a statement, which I happen to agree with, ...
Indeed he did, addressed to all cadets and prep school students. In the absence of any facts or investigation. And while I agree with WHAT he said, how he said it was frankly disturbing, political and apparently designed to appeal to the media.
... except those who do not understand the difference between Corps and Corpse.  T
Snarky eh? Lame though and lacking any respect for those who disagree with you.
There isn't much more to say on this topic, however I am disappointed we have members here on CT and members in CAP who don't understand the real meaning of the General's statements.
I'm sure you will say no more then. And the "real meaning" of the General's statement is actually quite clear. I am disappointed in the lack of respect shown by those who think they get to define everyone else's opinions. I am also grossly disappointed at the lack of criminal prosecution of the "hoaxer". YMMV.
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FW
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« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2017, 12:03:07 PM »

^I actually like my "snarky" comment.  Thanks for sharing. I agree with you; the General's comments are quite clear. You, sir, just wish to attach different meaning to it.  I have no problem opining on your comments. It's one of the perks of contributing to CAPTalk. 
And to be a little clearer; your comments show a lack of respect for our Core Values, the Core Values of the Air Force, and a deep misunderstanding of the Constitution of this glorious country.  I have no idea who you are or where you come from, but I am comfortable with my views, and to whom I give respect.  Enjoy your day and have a great holiday season.  I hope the coal you receive from Santa is put to good use...
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2017, 01:19:32 PM »

I often sigh and shake my head on pretty much anything related to racism.  I believe that for the most part people dont really care until someone external of the group finds a reason to use it for gain.  Thats what the cadet did in this case when he felt the need to spark a race war for some reason.

Ive watched the videos many times and in the end came up with this conclusion.  Without all the media, the cameras clicking and the elevated tone of voice and sense of urgency, Id bet you could print out the transcript of his speech and year from now recite it on a character development meeting night in a different tone of voice and everyone would nod and say "Well Yeah, of course" and nobody would walk out having felt attacked.  By the time people heard this speech, they had already taken their respective corners like boxers in a ring.  The general even admitted to the harsh tone he used when he said "we would be tone deaf to not take into consideration whats going on in our country" (or close to that... .2:08 mark)  So he had a legitimate message of "Are you FREAKING kidding me right now???" to use some street slang.  That was no secret. 

In the end.... a cadet of one race attempted to use racism to pit people against each other for an agenda, which in many cases, he managed to do.  Even with people who have never had any affiliation with the military or the USAF Academy.  I don't have any idea if the guy every said why he did it, or if he ever has, but for some reason he felt sparking racism would somehow benefit him.

If I went to work and someone wrote (insert racial phrase) on someones locker, I would imagine my Sheriff would probably give the same speech about the core values of the office, and state that "If this doesn't bother you, get out." Later if it was determined that officer wrote it himself because he knew he was about to get fired and thought this would detract away from his termination, then yes.... Id be pretty torqued that you tried to pit people in the agency against each other to create a diversion.   

Ill guarantee you this, even knowing its now a hoax, there were friendships lost, there were things people said to each other that will not be forgotten easily if ever, there are people who are now suspicious of each other because of positions that were taken on the issue, there are people who believed in the institution of the USAFA and the military who, even if for a moment, felt like it was all just a big illusion they had bought into.  I was just an infantry Sgt, I had my doubts about its legitimacy because after 8 years in the grunts in the Marines and the Army, Ive seen people who were complete racists get "handled" when we were in the field.  And when I say handled...it was checked fast.  Many times it was a simple "Look here A-- H---"  One case, I recall a Marine made a few comments and about an hour later he came limping back from a bad fall in the dark while looking for the porta-potty with a completely different outlook on his brother dark greens.   And this was in the mid-late 90s.  Not that I advocate violence on these issues... usually....  So even to me, there was a small part that said "C'mon guys..... the military is so far beyond society on this issue"  And absolutely I smiled when I learned my gut was right. 

Simply, people made inference about what he said based on what side they had already taken on the issue. Because of his speech, Im sure people of one group felt vindicated and Im sure people of another group felt attacked. I say group not race, because there were people of all races on both sides.   When the truth came out, those feelings probably switched, but in the speech he never even told the listeners what races were involved.  But did it end with the hoax admission?  No, because now we have the gloating phase. "HA!....see... I told you it was a hoax"  followed by the other group. "Well.... when we didnt know it was a hoax, you said ______ so now we are no longer friends you jerk". 

So in the end, it wasnt really a "hoax".  It actually did happen.  A cadet decided to reach out and employ a tactic, racism accusations in this case, to accomplish a goal regardless of what that goal was and people bit down and held on.   If a black guy sets a cross on fire in front of a black church to start a race war, that wasnt a hoax.  That was a tactic intended to bring a response.  That same speech would apply if the Mayor came out to address it.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 01:25:46 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2017, 02:54:46 PM »

^I actually like my "snarky" comment.  Thanks for sharing. I agree with you; the General's comments are quite clear. You, sir, just wish to attach different meaning to it.  I have no problem opining on your comments. It's one of the perks of contributing to CAPTalk. 
And to be a little clearer; your comments show a lack of respect for our Core Values, the Core Values of the Air Force, and a deep misunderstanding of the Constitution of this glorious country.  I have no idea who you are or where you come from, but I am comfortable with my views, and to whom I give respect.  Enjoy your day and have a great holiday season.  I hope the coal you receive from Santa is put to good use...
You represent the "my way or the highway" attitude of no respect wing. Got it. May you have a merry and blessed Christmas.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,711
Unit: Earth

« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2017, 03:06:05 PM »

As this topic, and subsequent replies, won't really settle anything or change anyone's opinions, why do not we just leave at "Happy Holidays and Happy Christmas."
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 03:10:52 PM by LSThiker » Logged
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 475

« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2017, 03:09:10 PM »

I often sigh and shake my head on pretty much anything related to racism.  I believe that for the most part people dont really care until someone external of the group finds a reason to use it for gain.  Thats what the cadet did in this case when he felt the need to spark a race war for some reason.

...

In the end.... a cadet of one race attempted to use racism to pit people against each other for an agenda, which in many cases, he managed to do.  ...

Ill guarantee you this, even knowing its now a hoax, there were friendships lost, there were things people said to each other that will not be forgotten easily if ever, there are people who are now suspicious of each other because of positions that were taken on the issue, there are people who believed in the institution of the USAFA and the military who, even if for a moment, felt like it was all just a big illusion they had bought into.

...

Simply, people made inference about what he said based on what side they had already taken on the issue. 
...   When the truth came out, ... did it end with the hoax admission?  No, because now we have the gloating phase. "HA!....see... I told you it was a hoax"  followed by the other group. "Well.... when we didnt know it was a hoax, you said ______ so now we are no longer friends you jerk". 

So in the end, it wasnt really a "hoax".  It actually did happen.  A cadet decided to reach out and employ a tactic, racism accusations in this case, to accomplish a goal regardless of what that goal was and people bit down and held on.   If a black guy sets a cross on fire in front of a black church to start a race war, that wasnt a hoax.  That was a tactic intended to bring a response. 
... which it did.

Nicely summarized. 
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2017, 03:15:37 PM »

And we're done here. It was going OK until the personal attacks started. Keep it civil folks.

Click.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,041

« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2017, 03:22:46 PM »

Geeez.. we cant lock a thread right after I put so much thought into my post  :-[
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2017, 08:18:02 PM »

Geeez.. we cant lock a thread right after I put so much thought into my post  :-[

You made an excellent, well thought out post. Some of the other folks weren't so considerate. On top of that, I got distracted, and didn't actually lock the post, until now.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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