CAP 39-1 Flightsuit (USAF style) questions

[Briank]

As detailed as 39-1 is in some ways, it seems a bit vague in others (or I'm just having a hard time finding the answer).  I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit from another unit and have run into a couple things (which Google has found me conflicting information on) while getting it in order.

1) 8.2.2.4 lists the left sleeve requirement for the flag.  However, it does not state if the velcro is supposed to be flag shaped (my thought is that it probably should be) or if the flag can be attached to patch shaped velcro (which is what this particular flight suit has now).

2) 8.2.3.2 - Rank insignia.  It states that the bottom edge of the insignia should be 0.5" from the shoulder seam.  However, I've not been able to determine which edge of the insignia is the "bottom" (specific case here is 2d Lt)...  Any pictures of that done the right way?

[NIN]

You could just sew the flag on,  but I doubt anybody would give you a hard time about the larger velcro.

I believe the 1/2 is to the insignia

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[lordmonar]

If the Velcro is OD green....following the practices of the USAF it does not matter.

I got two large squares of Velcro on both of my shoulders.  One usually gets a round patch and the other the flag. 

If you are using another color of Velcro.....then (and this is just my opinion and what I have seen) the Velcro should conform to the shape of the patch so it does not show when wearing the patch.

[SarDragon]

According to this:

8.2.3.2. Rank Insignia (Officers). Wear regular size plastic encased rank insignia centered on top of each shoulder with bottom edge of insignia placed ½ inch from shoulder seam and attached with clear plastic or OD thread.

there is no Velcro option. Emphasis mine.

Proper orientation is shown by the figures in Attachment 5.

[Briank]

Thanks all!

Yes, I have the clear plastic thread for the insignia.  The velcro was just in reference to the left sleeve flag.  Attachment 5 is exactly what I was looking for but not finding regarding the insignia orientation!

[PHall]

Thanks all!

Yes, I have the clear plastic thread for the insignia.  The velcro was just in reference to the left sleeve flag.  Attachment 5 is exactly what I was looking for but not finding regarding the insignia orientation!

Don't use the clear thread. It doesn't last that long.

[Eclipse]

Thanks all!

Yes, I have the clear plastic thread for the insignia.  The velcro was just in reference to the left sleeve flag.  Attachment 5 is exactly what I was looking for but not finding regarding the insignia orientation!

Don't use the clear thread. It doesn't last that long.

Instead of the clear sewing "thread" I use 2# test fishing line - it doesn't stretch like the thread does and stands up over time.
Works great on the kid's BSA sashes as well, so I can wander around 5-10 merit badges at a time without a concern of thread color.

[RogueLeader]

Thanks all!

Yes, I have the clear plastic thread for the insignia.  The velcro was just in reference to the left sleeve flag.  Attachment 5 is exactly what I was looking for but not finding regarding the insignia orientation!

Don't use the clear thread. It doesn't last that long.

Lasted for over four years for me.

[PHall]

Thanks all!

Yes, I have the clear plastic thread for the insignia.  The velcro was just in reference to the left sleeve flag.  Attachment 5 is exactly what I was looking for but not finding regarding the insignia orientation!

Don't use the clear thread. It doesn't last that long.

Lasted for over four years for me.

Have you washed that flight suit?

[RogueLeader]

Thanks all!

Yes, I have the clear plastic thread for the insignia.  The velcro was just in reference to the left sleeve flag.  Attachment 5 is exactly what I was looking for but not finding regarding the insignia orientation!

Don't use the clear thread. It doesn't last that long.

Lasted for over four years for me.

Have you washed that flight suit?

About a dozen times.

[Spam]

When I was a LT or Captain, I had a plastic insignia which leaked on washing. Eventually, I put my grade insignia on Velcro hook backing, attaching to small loop squares correctly sewn to the shoulders. It met the requirement as cited - was attached, was attached using OD thread, to a Velcro substrate. If you want to get pissy about having Velcro underneath, then you'd have to be equally as anal retentive about card backings for the fruit salad and nameplates, for epaulet and cap shapers, etc. Whatever...

That way, I pulled the plastic insignia off to wash it, and for when I flew with the flight suit at work (NAWCAD Pax River).

I think I had two people notice it in ten years or so.

V/r
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

So you go to work with wrinkled shirts? Torn pants? With the remains of some of your breakfasts on your ties?

If you do not, I will say you are "anal retentive."

Placing no Velcro when the instructions state "No Velcro," is equivalent to making sure you do not go to work with a wrinkled shirt.

I do not put cardboard on my fruit salad, nameplates, or badges, but I use the white plastic or foam backing sold for that purpose. This is equivalent to "Not wearing torn pants to work."

I do confess I sometimes use Epaulet shapers, just not on all; but I do not use not cap shapers. So sometimes I wear the remains of some of my breakfasts on my ties. So what? I am human!

[Damron]

As detailed as 39-1 is in some ways, it seems a bit vague in others (or I'm just having a hard time finding the answer).  I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit from another unit and have run into a couple things (which Google has found me conflicting information on) while getting it in order.

1) 8.2.2.4 lists the left sleeve requirement for the flag.  However, it does not state if the velcro is supposed to be flag shaped (my thought is that it probably should be) or if the flag can be attached to patch shaped velcro (which is what this particular flight suit has now).

2) 8.2.3.2 - Rank insignia.  It states that the bottom edge of the insignia should be 0.5" from the shoulder seam.  However, I've not been able to determine which edge of the insignia is the "bottom" (specific case here is 2d Lt)...  Any pictures of that done the right way?

Nomex?

[SarDragon]

According to this:

8.2.3.2. Rank Insignia (Officers). Wear regular size plastic encased rank insignia centered on top of each shoulder with bottom edge of insignia placed ½ inch from shoulder seam and attached with clear plastic or OD thread.

there is no Velcro option. Emphasis mine.

Proper orientation is shown by the figures in Attachment 5.

Figure 8.2.3 shown Captain bars in the correct orientation. 2nd and 1st Lt are similarly oriented.  See also figure A5-2.

[SarDragon]

As detailed as 39-1 is in some ways, it seems a bit vague in others (or I'm just having a hard time finding the answer).  I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit from another unit and have run into a couple things (which Google has found me conflicting information on) while getting it in order.

1) 8.2.2.4 lists the left sleeve requirement for the flag.  However, it does not state if the velcro is supposed to be flag shaped (my thought is that it probably should be) or if the flag can be attached to patch shaped velcro (which is what this particular flight suit has now).

2) 8.2.3.2 - Rank insignia.  It states that the bottom edge of the insignia should be 0.5" from the shoulder seam.  However, I've not been able to determine which edge of the insignia is the "bottom" (specific case here is 2d Lt)...  Any pictures of that done the right way?

Nomex?

??

Para 8.2.xx refers to the green flight suit (USAF-style FDU), which, according to the manual, only comes in Nomex. What's the question?

[Damron]

As detailed as 39-1 is in some ways, it seems a bit vague in others (or I'm just having a hard time finding the answer).  I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit from another unit and have run into a couple things (which Google has found me conflicting information on) while getting it in order.

1) 8.2.2.4 lists the left sleeve requirement for the flag.  However, it does not state if the velcro is supposed to be flag shaped (my thought is that it probably should be) or if the flag can be attached to patch shaped velcro (which is what this particular flight suit has now).

2) 8.2.3.2 - Rank insignia.  It states that the bottom edge of the insignia should be 0.5" from the shoulder seam.  However, I've not been able to determine which edge of the insignia is the "bottom" (specific case here is 2d Lt)...  Any pictures of that done the right way?

Nomex?

??

Para 8.2.xx refers to the green flight suit (USAF-style FDU), which, according to the manual, only comes in Nomex. What's the question?

You find my one-word, yes-no question puzzling? 

I know what 39-1 says.  39-1 does not describe the specific flight suit that is in this person's possession. There are non-Nomex coveralls out there in the wild. They are not authorized.  I just trashed a bunch of cheap non-Nomex AF-style FDU's that had been in use by a CAP squadron for years.

It's interesting that NHQ changed their policy on the CFDU, eliminating the Nomex requirement while maintaining the requirement for the AF-style FDU. 

[SarDragon]

The OP said: "I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit ...", which I interpreted to mean a green Nomex suit, which is what is specified in the 39-1. But, you are correct - the OP should clarify his request.

[Damron]

The OP said: "I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit ...", which I interpreted to mean a green Nomex suit, which is what is specified in the 39-1. But, you are correct - the OP should clarify his request.

When I came across these non-Nomex OD flight suits (cover-alls) I researched several generations of 39-1, curious if they were ever authorized.   

Six seniors in my squadron just completed aircrew training.  I told them I would buy them flight suits.  Unless I find some great deals on surplus OD Nomex suits, they'll be wearing the CFDU. 

[Spam]

Placing no Velcro when the instructions state "No Velcro," is equivalent to making sure you do not go to work with a wrinkled shirt.

Luis, the reg is silent on Velcro (you're adding a jot and tittle there). I think you and I are actually in agreement (we make it work).

V/r
Spam

[Spam]

You gents have hit on a good point there.

CAPM 39-1 is notably imprecise in many areas, one of which is specifying clothing by designations. DoD has decades of practice specifying clothing (often with multiple revs to each mil std design spec, with variants of shade, material, pockets, etc.) none of which is referenced by CAP. So, it can be very hard to ID exactly what you've been offered by Granddad, or see for cheap on eBay.


First, specifically, how CAP defines the FDU is important:
"8.2. USAF-style FDU (FDU) (Figure 8.1)
8.2.1. This USAF-style uniform may be worn by active members.
8.2.2. FDU. The FDU is olive drab (OD) green in color and constructed of Nomex. The desert
FDU is not authorized for wear. The FDU will only be worn with the accoutrements and outergarments
outlined in this chapter".


The attached Fig. 8.1 cartoon fails to give any detail on which specific coveralls are designed, and as "Flight suits" known now as the FDU have come in a large variety of designations and types which many people could interpret are not specifically prohibited under the currently loosely worded CAPM 39-1, unless they are not Nomex or OD in color:


The K-2 (MIL S-6265A-D) comes in variants with only one, or with two slanted pockets and the standard leg pockets, but is OD cotton (and is usually lighter OD green in shade). Was produced in the 50s/60s. Cotton = doesn't meet 39-1 requirements.

The CWU 1/P (MIL-C-25786) has two slanted pockets and the leg pockets, and is OD green (sateen type weave, shinier because its a lovely meltable 60 percent nylon blend). Another 'Nam era suit. Nylon = doesn't meet reqs.

The MIL-9546B Navy suit (nylon again) was orange. Nylon/not OD = doesn't meet reqs.

The Navy MIL-5390 series (spec MIL-C-5390G) were worn by all services in 'Nam. Although their color was a bit tan to be OD, they have the full modern slant pockets and later variants have Velcro tabs. Not NOMEX = doesn't meet reqs.

The 9558 - OG 107 Cotton Flying Coveralls - were worn by many services in the 60s throughout the 70s. The 9558G (Nyco) entered production in around 1964 (MIL-C-5390G). Nyco is a cotton/T420 nylon 6.6 blend = comfy but doesn't meet reqs.

The late 1960s CS/FRP-1 is in fire resistant polyamide (hence the FRP) and has the two slanted and the leg pockets, but was a bit darker/browner OD green. The earliest NOMEX type suit. Arguably... NOMEX, arguably... green? Could meet 39-1 requirements, but you'd stand out like a Brazilian Civil Air Patrol pilot... not recommended.

The CWU-27/P and 28/P (fire resistant) entered service in the very early 1970s as spec 9561 (and, incidentally, they were found with rank sewn on under plastic, just as CAP wears today). You can tell the very early 27/Ps by the soft neck lining. Sub variants (such as 9568) had epaulets, but were all authorized for USAF/USN/USMC/you name it. 9573 - 9576 covered different color variants.  9573A was notable as the desert tan colored version (CWU-27/P Tan Flyer's Coverall) seen over the past 30 years of middle eastern deployments. As they are NOMEX, the OD variants (only) do meet reqs.

Note: if you go to the Rothco website and buy one of their sixty buck flight suit specials, you will get the cotton/poly cheapo version of the 27/P, not an actual 27/P, but it looks very much the same as the issue suit. These are not NOMEX, and do not meet reqs.


9576 covered the newer CWU-73P Flyer's Summer Coveralls (circa 1980s to present). Many have epaulets, and were/are indeed flown by the USAF. They are NOMEX, and if you can find some in OD vice blue, they're authorized.

CWU-66P Aircrew Chemical Protective Nomex Coverall. Made by Gentex, these are current issue FDUs and have an activated charcoal inner layer, are good for cool weather, and can be found sometimes for cheap (I just did a quick search and found one for 50 bucks, new). The -66 will be in use for a while until we field an integrated JPACE/JSAM/JCE type suit system for chem bio needs. Also available are CWU-86/P Anti-Exposure suits (aka poopy suits or Gumby suits) which are overkill for most CAP missions save perhaps extended overwater or AK Wing operations. They're all green, they're NOMEX, and depending on your ORM matrix, may be right for the mission.


Non-flight coveralls that are frequently mistaken for FDUs:
- CVC (Combat Vehicle Crewman's coverall). These are NOMEX, and are OD, yet are not FDUs. They can be recognized by their ID tag, by their general excessive bagginess, by the drawstring collars and trouser cuffs, and by the pointed collars (FDUs are rounded).
- Mechanics coveralls. These are also NOMEX and OD, yet have straight non zip pockets and no thigh/calf pockets.


Submitted as food for thought.

R/s,
Spam

[Storm Chaser]

As detailed as 39-1 is in some ways, it seems a bit vague in others (or I'm just having a hard time finding the answer).  I've inherited a USAF style flightsuit from another unit and have run into a couple things (which Google has found me conflicting information on) while getting it in order.

1) 8.2.2.4 lists the left sleeve requirement for the flag.  However, it does not state if the velcro is supposed to be flag shaped (my thought is that it probably should be) or if the flag can be attached to patch shaped velcro (which is what this particular flight suit has now).

Here's your answer:

8.2.4.6.5. Sleeve Patches. Sleeve patches may be attached using velcro fastener or sewn directly to the FDU. If hook a loop is used, a 3 1⁄2 x 3 1⁄2 inch square piece of OD green loop tape will be sewn to each sleeve using OD green thread.

2) 8.2.3.2 - Rank insignia.  It states that the bottom edge of the insignia should be 0.5" from the shoulder seam.  However, I've not been able to determine which edge of the insignia is the "bottom" (specific case here is 2d Lt)...  Any pictures of that done the right way?

The longer side of the 2d Lt bar is the bottom.

[Briank]

Figure 8.2.3 shown Captain bars in the correct orientation. 2nd and 1st Lt are similarly oriented.  See also figure A5-2.

Huh, those appear to be in conflict.  8.2.3 Captain bars would have the long edge towards the seam where as A5-2 the bottom is the short edge (which would be 90 degrees rotation from the Captain bars as shown).

[Briank]

I know what 39-1 says.  39-1 does not describe the specific flight suit that is in this person's possession. There are non-Nomex coveralls out there in the wild. They are not authorized.  I just trashed a bunch of cheap non-Nomex AF-style FDU's that had been in use by a CAP squadron for years.

Excellent point.  I'd not considered that there could be counterfeit FDUs floating around.  I don't know the full history on this one, so it's certainly in doubt until confirmed.  In inherited it from a friend at another unit who found that it didn't fit well.  It came out of his unit's spares, which who knows how they got originally!

I'm not a materials specialist, how can I tell if it's nomex?  The color and design all appear to be spot on from what I gather so far.  It's a fairly thin fabric though, which makes me doubt the authenticity.  The tag is heavily worn(yet the rest of the suit itself is in good shape).  All that's left readable on it is "14R" (size I presume?), "coverall", "Warning", "do not bleach, starch, or dry clean", and "do not remove this tag".

[Brad]

Figure 8.2.3 shown Captain bars in the correct orientation. 2nd and 1st Lt are similarly oriented.  See also figure A5-2.

Huh, those appear to be in conflict.  8.2.3 Captain bars would have the long edge towards the seam where as A5-2 the bottom is the short edge (which would be 90 degrees rotation from the Captain bars as shown).

Captain and Lt bars are worn with the long edge towards the sides:



I'm moreso surprised to recently discover I can wear the Communications patch on the flightsuit on the right shoulder! May have to make that swap-out. 

[Damron]

Note: if you go to the Rothco website and buy one of their sixty buck flight suit specials, you will get the cotton/poly cheapo version of the 27/P, not an actual 27/P, but it looks very much the same as the issue suit. These are not NOMEX, and do not meet reqs.

Just for clarification, the blue CFDU can be cotton/poly blend, it doesn't have to be Nomex.   I'm surprised they didn't make Nomex optional on the AF-style FDU when they made it optional on the CFDU.

Nice post! 

[raivo]

I'm not a materials specialist, how can I tell if it's nomex?

Try setting it on fire and see what happens.

The color and design all appear to be spot on from what I gather so far.  It's a fairly thin fabric though, which makes me doubt the authenticity.  The tag is heavily worn(yet the rest of the suit itself is in good shape).  All that's left readable on it is "14R" (size I presume?), "coverall", "Warning", "do not bleach, starch, or dry clean", and "do not remove this tag".

That sounds approximately correct, based on the labels on the flightsuits in my closet. Flightsuits will "thin out" after a long period of use (there's a noticeable difference between the two I wore for three years, and the one I wore for one year) so if they're that old, I wouldn't read too much into the fabric.

http://imgur.com/7dWG5NR

http://imgur.com/WlEukMm

(If you're wondering why that first picture looks discolored, it's because my deputy painted all over the back of the flightsuit on my last alert, as is tradition.)

[Spam]

(If you're wondering why that first picture looks discolored, it's because my deputy painted all over the back of the flightsuit on my last alert, as is tradition.)

Uniform sabotage is a fun tradition (as long as guys pony up for reparations)! One of my favorite memories of being on a carrier was spending a sunny afternoon on the LSO platform on USS Stennis during a Carquals period, laughing while guys took turns writing "MEMBER - NAMBLA" one letter at a time on the back of the LSO's float coat (without his knowledge, while he was focused on landing jets).

Cheers
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

I'll b ite. What does NAMBLA mean?

[RogueLeader]

I'll b ite. What does NAMBLA mean?

North American Man/Boy Love Association

[raivo]

North American Marlon Brando Look-Alikes

(source: South Park)