NCO Duty Positions and Responsibilities

[Storm Chaser]

I hate to bring the NCO topic again, but is anyone currently using the NCO positions available in eServices?

It's been two years since the new NCO promotion program was announced and a little over a year since the last revision of CAPR 35-5. I know there were talks about a new CAPR 20-1 covering the NCO positions, but I haven't seen it yet. In the mean time, the positions are available in eServices and are being used by some units and higher headquarters across CAP.

I'm even considering appointing a SNCO as Group NCO. The problem is, I don't know exactly what a Group NCO is supposed to do. Our wing has one assigned, but there has been no guidance on what their role is supposed to be. I've heard that of an advisor, but advisor on what? We have no other NCOs in our group, so there's no NCO matters to advise on.

Can anyone with first hand knowledge of this program shed some light? Are there defined responsibilities for these NCO positions, even if only as a draft?

[lordmonar]

Talk to you wing snco

[Storm Chaser]

Already did. A couple of times. Didn't get much. I'm looking for specific roles, functions and duties.

Do you have any useful information?

[lordmonar]

I have the Draft from January.

[Storm Chaser]

That's a start. Thank you.

[winterg]

Is there a channel that information about the new NCO program is being released through that I am just not seeing?  I haven't heard much about it outside the announcement and the lengthy discussion here previously.  I have been waiting for something that explains what incentive there would be for a prospective member to choose the NCO route over the officer route.

[MSG Mac]

CMSgt Eldridge stated at the National Conference that he and the National Staff/DP were working on some changes to the current program which would be announced soon (hopefully by News Years, because he said a month or two).

[Storm Chaser]

If this program is to be successful beyond a few members choosing to wear stripes instead of bars or oak leaves, then we really need to define what the role of the CAP NCO will be. The duty positions and responsibilities in the draft provided by Lordmonar, while a start, are too broad and generic. The only specific function that I can see is to assist in recruiting additional enlisted members. But how can they even do that successfully without a clear and distinct NCO role in CAP?

Tailoring the PD program to suit a "new" NCO tier would only be effective if CAP NCOs have specific roles, distinct from those of CAP officers. As of right now, we have a few NCO positions with no real duties or responsibilities. But other than that, NCOs can do anything an officer can do except command a squadron or higher. That's not a good enough incentive to recruit additional NCOs. In fact, every military NCO we've recruited in my AOR during the past year, but one, has chosen to trade their stripes for bars. We've try to make a case for them to remain NCOs, but the lack of direction and guidance from above makes it difficult for us to make a good case in favor of them remaining NCOs in CAP. They don't see much of an incentive or even a purpose to keeping their stripes.

[kwe1009]

If this program is to be successful beyond a few members choosing to wear stripes instead of bars or oak leaves, then we really need to define what the role of the CAP NCO will be. The duty positions and responsibilities in the draft provided by Lordmonar, while a start, are too broad and generic. The only specific function that I can see is to assist in recruiting additional enlisted members. But how can they even do that successfully without a clear and distinct NCO role in CAP?

Tailoring the PD program to suit a "new" NCO tier would only be effective if CAP NCOs have specific roles, distinct from those of CAP officers. As of right now, we have a few NCO positions with no real duties or responsibilities. But other than that, NCOs can do anything an officer can do except command a squadron or higher. That's not a good enough incentive to recruit additional NCOs. In fact, every military NCO we've recruited in my AOR during the past year, but one, has chosen to trade their stripes for bars. We've try to make a case for them to remain NCOs, but the lack of direction and guidance from above makes it difficult for us to make a good case in favor of them remaining NCOs in CAP. They don't see much of an incentive or even a purpose to keeping their stripes.

Agreed.  I don't understand how this program will help CAP in any way.  Someone should do a cost-benefit analysis on the new CAP NCO program to see if it is even worth the time and money that has been invested into it at this point.  I really don't see the need or the benefit.  Just how many former NCOs are not joining CAP because there isn't an effective NCO program?  I bet that number is probably a two digit number nationwide.

[Storm Chaser]

My issue is not so much with the program, but with the implementation. This program has been half implemented and NHQ has been moot about what the real goal and direction with this program is.

There are several reasons why NCOs are the backbone of the military. First, there are more NCOs than officers. Second, NCOs have jobs that are different and unique from officers. Third, they're the first line supervisors of the enlisted troops. Fourth, there are enlisted troops to supervise. And finally, they don't normally join the military as NCOs, but have to enlist and work their way up the ranks. By the time they become NCOs, they have real military experience, unlike the majority of 2d Lts who outrank these NCOs.

Is that CAP's ultimate goal? Are we going to make officer appointments and promotions harder? Are we going to make the majority of our new members join as "enlisted" and work through the NCO grades, while at the same time shrinking our officer corps? Are we going to redefine NCO and officer roles? These and many other questions need to be answered if we are to have a significant NCO program in CAP. Otherwise, all we've really done is accommodate a minority of members that, for whatever reasons (none addressed by CAP), have opted to keep or revert back to their stripes. The main difference is they can now promote.

[TheSkyHornet]

I think part of the reason for the NCO program was that it was an incentive to get prior military NCOs to join CAP with the feeling of continuing their military service, not forfeiting their rank for a CAP officer rank. But many prior NCOs, and even junior enlisted, have no problem stepping into a CAP officer role; but you still get some that may be hesitant. It's something that I've heard come up in discussion from time to time, and you do get a few prior NCOs who will hang around meetings but not actually join or really "contribute." They just like the social aspect of it, sort of like a VFW/American Legion to them.

Some CAP squadrons have so many officers that they don't have the room to act in officer capacities. Even as officers, they serve in what would be regarded as an NCO role in the military. The issue CAP has in some respects is that positions aren't filled as needed but created as faces come in. You may have a cadet program where there are 5 or 6 CP specialty officers and an NCO, and only 2 or 3 of the officers actually act as officers because there are so many hands in the pot. Some squadrons are just so big on the senior member side that there's more to do than what is really necessary to be done, and everyone becomes supervisors/trainers.

[kwe1009]

I think part of the reason for the NCO program was that it was an incentive to get prior military NCOs to join CAP with the feeling of continuing their military service, not forfeiting their rank for a CAP officer rank. But many prior NCOs, and even junior enlisted, have no problem stepping into a CAP officer role; but you still get some that may be hesitant. It's something that I've heard come up in discussion from time to time, and you do get a few prior NCOs who will hang around meetings but not actually join or really "contribute." They just like the social aspect of it, sort of like a VFW/American Legion to them.

Some CAP squadrons have so many officers that they don't have the room to act in officer capacities. Even as officers, they serve in what would be regarded as an NCO role in the military. The issue CAP has in some respects is that positions aren't filled as needed but created as faces come in. You may have a cadet program where there are 5 or 6 CP specialty officers and an NCO, and only 2 or 3 of the officers actually act as officers because there are so many hands in the pot. Some squadrons are just so big on the senior member side that there's more to do than what is really necessary to be done, and everyone becomes supervisors/trainers.

You bring up some great points, especially about have so many hands in the pot. I have seen squadrons with about 15 cadets and half a dozen Senior Members involved in Cadet Programs.  It just turns into a mess with too many chiefs and not enough Indians.  Adding NCOs will not make such situations any better. 

To keep people involved in a volunteer organization is very important.  That is the reason that jobs are created as new people come in.  To have a new person join and not have a job will quickly lead to boredom and that new member will soon become a ghost member and then a former member.  The real trick is to keep everyone actively engaged and happy.  Much easier said than done.

[TheSkyHornet]

I think part of the reason for the NCO program was that it was an incentive to get prior military NCOs to join CAP with the feeling of continuing their military service, not forfeiting their rank for a CAP officer rank. But many prior NCOs, and even junior enlisted, have no problem stepping into a CAP officer role; but you still get some that may be hesitant. It's something that I've heard come up in discussion from time to time, and you do get a few prior NCOs who will hang around meetings but not actually join or really "contribute." They just like the social aspect of it, sort of like a VFW/American Legion to them.

Some CAP squadrons have so many officers that they don't have the room to act in officer capacities. Even as officers, they serve in what would be regarded as an NCO role in the military. The issue CAP has in some respects is that positions aren't filled as needed but created as faces come in. You may have a cadet program where there are 5 or 6 CP specialty officers and an NCO, and only 2 or 3 of the officers actually act as officers because there are so many hands in the pot. Some squadrons are just so big on the senior member side that there's more to do than what is really necessary to be done, and everyone becomes supervisors/trainers.

You bring up some great points, especially about have so many hands in the pot. I have seen squadrons with about 15 cadets and half a dozen Senior Members involved in Cadet Programs.  It just turns into a mess with too many chiefs and not enough Indians.  Adding NCOs will not make such situations any better. 

To keep people involved in a volunteer organization is very important.  That is the reason that jobs are created as new people come in.  To have a new person join and not have a job will quickly lead to boredom and that new member will soon become a ghost member and then a former member.  The real trick is to keep everyone actively engaged and happy.  Much easier said than done.

That's pretty much the basis of every idea in CAP.

It's a real challenge to try and work efficiently without deterring anyone from joining or renewing their membership. As with most volunteer organizations, especially those in which you have to pay to stay on, telling someone "you can't do this" is a real turn-off. Sure, we do have situations where we have to tell someone our hands are tied on certain issues due to regulations, but usually most people accept that and understand that we are not a free-flowing organization. What I think happens too often is that squadron leaders start thinking "I have too many Cadet Programs officers and not enough Communications Officers" (purely just grabbing jobs for example purposes) and telling someone "No, you can't be a Cadet Programs member because we have enough." Now you just told someone who volunteered in an organization where they can walk away at any point with no ramifications that they can't do the job they wanted to do when they joined. Obviously we can't have everyone be the Deputy Commander for Cadets, but you just turned away a member because you told them they can't even work close to the CDC. Again, this was just an example, not necessarily a Cadet Programs-specific issue.

I think this applies for NCOs as well. "We don't really have a position for an NCO." I've heard squadron commanders say it. And I think it's because they don't really know what to do with that person if they serve as an NCO. Many squadron commanders are not prior military and don't know what it is that differs an NCO from an officer aside from insignia. I think in just about every "recruiting" schpiel I've heard to a potential senior member applicant I have heard the statement "every member needs to have a job, and we usually wear a lot of hats." That's inaccurate because in some squadrons, it's often the same hat being worn by several people because it's over-crowded. Perhaps in those cases, rather than adding another supervisor, some workload should be relinquished from the officer in charge of that specialty in the squadron and handed over to the new person, once trained and adequately mentored. "I'm in charge of planning and coordinating the roster and event. Can you do uniform supplies and welcome packets for new members?" That's a good way to split up duties.

I do feel that NCOs have a place in that process, but it's a matter of identifying the entire role of that specialty track and then breaking down what is it an NCO could do if staying in an NCO-based role on top of that. I think CAP has an issue here with with an NCO being a non-standard position that most squadrons don't actually have, and in this case, the NCO may need to do a CAP officer job and just call themselves the NCO-form of the title (i.e., instead Activities Officer they are the Activities NCO). Large squadrons and even those small squadrons that have some area of supervision and discipline that can be passed down to an NCO function are very much capable of doing so if an NCO came along. The problem is that we are not structured to always have an NCO position, and if we did structure one, we won't always have an NCO to fill that position (back to the wearing of multiple hats).

[RiverAux]

I have the Draft from January.

Wow, even less substantial than I was expecting.  What I get from that is that at the squadron level the job of the NCO is to do the same job as a CAP officer may do, but do it in a different uniform. 

What a gigantic waste of time and resources. 

There are circumstances where I would support a total revamp of CAP's program that would make NCOs as vital as they are to the military, but this does nothing more than say we have NCOs so that we can claim that not everyone is an officer -- even if 99.9% are.

[THRAWN]

Looks like this discussion is already circling around to the points already made about the proposals. We have all made our points about this, numerous times. Looks like opinions have not changed. Since this has been going on for a few years now, is there any hope of seeing it implemented any time soon? Or conversely, filed away?

[TheSkyHornet]

*Ponders the idea of allowing seniors to join CAP as NCOs without prior military service*

If there is no difference between the role of a CAP NCO and a CAP officer, aside from the limitations of authority and responsibilities in the squadron, and the CAPR 20-1 squadron structure does not have any NCO positions listed, then, really, I don't think there is a purpose for NCOs other than to say you have them.

However, if there is a need for NCOs that we do not want to be filled by officers, then maybe it would be best to change the policies regarding joining CAP as a Senior Member Without Grade transitioning to Officer and open up the NCO corridor for applicants without military experience.

[THRAWN]

*Ponders the idea of allowing seniors to join CAP as NCOs without prior military service*

If there is no difference between the role of a CAP NCO and a CAP officer, aside from the limitations of authority and responsibilities in the squadron, and the CAPR 20-1 squadron structure does not have any NCO positions listed, then, really, I don't think there is a purpose for NCOs other than to say you have them.

However, if there is a need for NCOs that we do not want to be filled by officers, then maybe it would be best to change the policies regarding joining CAP as a Senior Member Without Grade transitioning to Officer and open up the NCO corridor for applicants without military experience.

Not unheard of. SDFs have been doing it for generations, with some measure of success. Here is how it's generally handled:

Minimum bachelor's degree and prior service: officer
Degree and no prior service: enlisted with advanced grade and the opportunity to apply for officer training
Prior service and no degree: enlisted, advanced grade up to grade at discharge
No prior service and no degree: enlisted

Now if they implemented something like that, in addition to identifying specific roles that would be NCO only, it might work.

[kwe1009]

*Ponders the idea of allowing seniors to join CAP as NCOs without prior military service*

If there is no difference between the role of a CAP NCO and a CAP officer, aside from the limitations of authority and responsibilities in the squadron, and the CAPR 20-1 squadron structure does not have any NCO positions listed, then, really, I don't think there is a purpose for NCOs other than to say you have them.

However, if there is a need for NCOs that we do not want to be filled by officers, then maybe it would be best to change the policies regarding joining CAP as a Senior Member Without Grade transitioning to Officer and open up the NCO corridor for applicants without military experience.

Not unheard of. SDFs have been doing it for generations, with some measure of success. Here is how it's generally handled:

Minimum bachelor's degree and prior service: officer
Degree and no prior service: enlisted with advanced grade and the opportunity to apply for officer training
Prior service and no degree: enlisted, advanced grade up to grade at discharge
No prior service and no degree: enlisted

Now if they implemented something like that, in addition to identifying specific roles that would be NCO only, it might work.

That actually makes sense so it is probably doomed to be implemented in CAP.  It does seem odd that people with no military experience can be officers (which by definition have greater responsibility) but can't be an NCO.  It would be nice to see something like that in CAP.

[MacGruff]

I have a young man in my squadron who is an ex-cadet and in the Army National Guard. He rejoined the squadron as a Senior Member just this month. I spoke with him about what he wants to do to contribute to the squadron and his immediate rejoinder was that he wants to be an NCO and NOT AN OFFICER. That was quite vehement and set me back a bit. I opened the regs and showed him what it say there and he is quite happy to serve six months as a SMWOG and then sew on Staff Sergeant stripes.

I was wondering in what way I could use him, and I think that probably the best way is to have him lead the squadron's drill and ceremonies area as he is current on them (yeah, I know I wrote above that he is ARMY, not Air Force!!!). Definitely more current than our other Seniors who were last in uniform 13 or more years ago.

If he likes that idea, I guess I would put him in the Cadet Programs Specialty Track and have him teach the cadets. By the way, our squadron is going through changes right now with a huge cadre leaving as they age out, join the military, or college, and there is a large gap before the newer cadets are ready to take over (The most senior of the junior cadets is a C/Staff Sergeant).

If he wants to wear stripes to do this rather than a butter bar, I have no problem with that.

[MSG Mac]

I am currently pondering going from silver bottle caps to enlisted. Our Wing just posted an opening for CMSgt and as a retired E-8 I meet the requirements for consideration.