"US" and "CAP" on AF/TPU service Coat

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, guys, this MIGHT run a little long, but it illustrates a point:

Here in FL we are agmenting the 45th Space Wing by providing tour guides for the USAF Space Museum on Cape Canaveral AF Station.  The base is restricted, and every tour has to be guided, so to allow any visitation of the historic launch sites, they need escorts.  Rather than task an overburdened PA shop, they turned to us. 

The AF asked us to provide the tours in THEIR uniform of the day... Flight suit or BDU's.  No blues, unless that's the only uniform you got.  Flyers should be in flight suits.

Well, the program ALMOST got cancelled.

I was working it once a week, and since I'm retired, I work during the week, saving the weekend days for guys with jobs.  That put me in contact with a lot of AF folk, officers and NCO's.  Suddenly, we weren't welcome anymore.  I thought I screwed the pooch with one of the jokes I made abut both John Glenn and some of the space monkey-nauts running for political office, but no, that was not the case.

When the CAP officer in charge talked to the 45th's XO, he was informed that there was  "An old major working the program with an outdated uniform, and if he can't keep up on the current regulation, he shouldn't be there."  After a "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" moment, our guy asked for an explantion.

Well, apparently the 45th was upset that I was STILL wearing bright rank insignia encased in plastic, something that hasn't been done since the Vietnam War...and what's with the leather name tag? 

Now remember, the 45th Space Wing is part of the REAL Air Force, not the Air University.  The impression I got is that the RAF (Real Air Force) wants CAP as full partners, and wants to go back to the days when CAP officers were indistinguishable from AF officers unless you knew all the secret codes contained in the insignia.  The XO of the 45th was laboring under the misconception that whenever the AF changed a uniform regulation that ours changed automatically as well.

We got this issue straightened out, and were back in their good graces.  But my point is the AF want us to look like them.

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

[BillB]

John is 100% correct on CAP uniforms not following totally the USAF uniform. I got into a conversation with an AF O-6 at MacDill AFB in the consolidated mess hall about 2 years ago. He was curious about the grey shoulder slides. he said he thought that CAP was supposed to wear the USAF uniform. I explained that CAP or USAF made the decision that CAP should have different destinctive insignia. He said if CAP was the Auxiliary of the USAF we should wear the USAF uniform with correct/current insignia.
About that time a cadet walked into the mess hall in BDUs and the Colonel asked why CAP was still wearing the blue tapes when the air force switched to subdued background tapes years ago. For this I had no answer as I've heard so many versions I didn't know what was correct.
When you add the CAP members wearing the USAF uniform and not meeting the USAF standards (I'm not talking of weight, but rather sloppy uniforms) it's no wonder the Air Force looks down on CAP. CAP can't even enforce it's own regulations.

[RiverAux]

Kach illustrates a great point -- the guys on the ground getting CAP help probably couldn't care less whether the CAP guy is 50 lbs overweight or has a grizzly adams beard if it gets them out of doing a bunch of work. 

The AF officer or NCO that is walking by that has no clue who we are or what we're doing is probably the one complaining about how we look in "AF-style" uniforms. 

The more we work with the AF the more likely a lot of the silly differences we have now will disappear. 

[mikeylikey]

John is 100% correct on CAP uniforms not following totally the USAF uniform. I got into a conversation with an AF O-6 at MacDill AFB in the consolidated mess hall about 2 years ago. He was curious about the grey shoulder slides. he said he thought that CAP was supposed to wear the USAF uniform. I explained that CAP or USAF made the decision that CAP should have different destinctive insignia. He said if CAP was the Auxiliary of the USAF we should wear the USAF uniform with correct/current insignia.
About that time a cadet walked into the mess hall in BDUs and the Colonel asked why CAP was still wearing the blue tapes when the air force switched to subdued background tapes years ago. For this I had no answer as I've heard so many versions I didn't know what was correct.
When you add the CAP members wearing the USAF uniform and not meeting the USAF standards (I'm not talking of weight, but rather sloppy uniforms) it's no wonder the Air Force looks down on CAP. CAP can't even enforce it's own regulations.

Yes....but, it't the AF that wants us in our silly ugly uniforms!

[JohnKachenmeister]

John is 100% correct on CAP uniforms not following totally the USAF uniform. I got into a conversation with an AF O-6 at MacDill AFB in the consolidated mess hall about 2 years ago. He was curious about the grey shoulder slides. he said he thought that CAP was supposed to wear the USAF uniform. I explained that CAP or USAF made the decision that CAP should have different destinctive insignia. He said if CAP was the Auxiliary of the USAF we should wear the USAF uniform with correct/current insignia.
About that time a cadet walked into the mess hall in BDUs and the Colonel asked why CAP was still wearing the blue tapes when the air force switched to subdued background tapes years ago. For this I had no answer as I've heard so many versions I didn't know what was correct.
When you add the CAP members wearing the USAF uniform and not meeting the USAF standards (I'm not talking of weight, but rather sloppy uniforms) it's no wonder the Air Force looks down on CAP. CAP can't even enforce it's own regulations.

Yes....but, it't the AF that wants us in our silly ugly uniforms!

My point is, Mikey, that the USAF is not a monolithic agency, with everybody instanly connected with specal decoder rings.  The 45th concerns itself with launching military sattelites and managing the Eastern Test Range, not our uniforms.  When they find out the AF has an Auxiliary, they want to use us.  Then we show up... in correct uniform as determined by the AF Uniform Board... but different enough that the guys in real units wonder what PX we've been shopping at.

My age factored into this, a little.  Since CAP and the AF niform board have not changed certain aspects of our uniform since Vietnam, the assumption was that I had not changed my flight suit since Vietnam.

(Little did they know-- I wore a sailor suit in Vietnam, anyway!)

[Hawk200]

(Little did they know-- I wore a sailor suit in Vietnam, anyway!)

Really? Were you the one who modeled for the Cracker Jack box?    :angel:

[SAR-EMT1]

Glad to hear the program is back on track.

[JohnKachenmeister]

(Little did they know-- I wore a sailor suit in Vietnam, anyway!)

Really? Were you the one who modeled for the Cracker Jack box?    :angel:

No, that was my gay brother, Lance.

[NAYBOR]

OK, here we go again...

What do you guys think of have insignia like these for us on both the TPU AND AF service dress coat?

1st image:



Maybe 'CAP' a little bigger:



What do y'all think?

We could transition to this insignia, and wear the grey three line name tag on the service dress coat, to be distguishable.  We would then wear metal rank on the epaulets of the TPU and AF service coat.

[LtCol White]

OK, here we go again...

What do you guys think of have insignia like these for us on both the TPU AND AF service dress coat?

1st image:



Maybe 'CAP' a little bigger:



What do y'all think?

We could transition to this insignia, and wear the grey three line name tag on the service dress coat, to be distguishable.  We would then wear metal rank on the epaulets of the TPU and AF service coat.

Nah, don't think USAF will go for this. Good effort but not keen on the insignia. Don't think we'll ever see metal rank again on the AF Coat. A viable option would be to have the blue epaulet on the AF coat with CAP embroidered on it with the same eps on the shirt. Nametag could be the blue plastic on the shirt and coat to distinguish.

[SarDragon]

Sorry - ugly. The black text would be indistinguishable when viewed at regular size, and it makes the metal letters less readable.

[RiverAux]

Ugly, ugly.

[MIKE]

A viable option would be to have the blue epaulet on the AF coat with CAP embroidered on it with the same eps on the shirt.

I'm sorry but that is a dumb idea.  If metal insignia can't be made distinctive enough... Then dark blue epaulet sleeves on a dark blue coat aren't either and it's a waste of time and money.

If we had to, I'd ditch the U.S. for CAP... but then again, I'd ditch CAP in favor of United States Air Force Volunteer Reserve Auxiliary.

[LtCol White]

Properly presented, I think this might be acceptable to USAF for the AF Uniform. As you can see, it is very distinct from the metal rank. The same could be done on the TPU Coat as well.

[mikeylikey]

^^ Not bad!  I like the second one.  How nice that would be to move back to that!  If that is not acceptable to the AF......how about that PLUS the new TPU nametag PLUS CAP on the collar. 

[LtCol White]

^^ Not bad!  I like the second one.  How nice that would be to move back to that!  If that is not acceptable to the AF......how about that PLUS the new TPU nametag PLUS CAP on the collar. 

I think that most would be willing to give up US on the collar for CAP if we could have the blue eps on the service coat. It could also be worn with the blue nametag instead of the metal one. The TPU coat could be set up exactly the same and the same eps could be worn on both shirts as well. THis would create more similarity between the 2 uniforms so that the connection was clear and the main difference would be the size of the individual wearing each version.

All we need now is to find a way to get NHQ to consider this and propose it to USAF. Hopefully one of the NHQ folks that read here will pick it up and run with it.

[Chaplaindon]

Keep it simple ... ditch the myriad of USAF-like and civilian "outfits" and go, instead, to a military-esque CORPORATE uniform (my preference a retro-1505 look) with a CORPORATE service (dress) overblouse with "USCAP" on the lapels (in lieu of either "US" or "CAP"). If "USCAP" isn't acceptable for lapel wear, then use "USA."

Keep it simple and avoid all the needless wrangling.

[BillB]

Chaplain Don....If you ditched the USAF style uniforms, you would lose a VERY large percentage of Cadets. The problem is not with the USAF style uniform, but the multitude of civilian/corporate style uniforms. Add to that the members that don't meet height/weight or facial hair standards with various restrictions on who can wear what style corporate buniform and you have 14 possible approved uniform combinations. Add in USAF style blues or BDUs and you could have a squadron meeting where no two people were in the same uniform.

[ddelaney103]

Chaplain Don....If you ditched the USAF style uniforms, you would lose a VERY large percentage of Cadets. The problem is not with the USAF style uniform, but the multitude of civilian/corporate style uniforms. Add to that the members that don't meet height/weight or facial hair standards with various restrictions on who can wear what style corporate buniform and you have 14 possible approved uniform combinations. Add in USAF style blues or BDUs and you could have a squadron meeting where no two people were in the same uniform.

No one is discussing changing the Cadet uniform - they have to follow grooming and don't have a weight standard (below 18).  The AF seems happy and we don't need to rock the boat.

For Officers, we (IMHO) need to come up with a combination of uniforms and standards that will increase uniformity w/o a loss of operational capabilities through departures.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Personally, my solution would be MUCH simpler. 

Let's get CAP out of the fashionista business.

Work out a deal with the USAF that they add a chapter to THEIR Air Force Instruction titled:  "Special Insignia and Provisions for Civil Air Patrol."

They decide what they want us to wear.  Then everybody in the USAF will know what to expect and we won't have to spin our wheels second guessing what Big Mother Blue wants.

Have some CAP input, but its the AF uniform, so let the AF decide.

I'd be willing to bet that we would end up with:

1.  The current gray slides on everything.

2.  Use the CAP badge from the mess dress as an identification badge for CAP on everything, and ...

3.  LEAVE THE REST ALONE.  The AF uniform is good enough for them, its good enough for us.

Look slim, shave your beards, and shine your shoes.