Why don't more cadets attend encampments?

[xray328]

At our last meeting the commander asked how many cadets were going to the wings summer encampment, and only two (mine) raised their hands.  I was pretty surprised none of the other (12 present) were going. You'd think that since it opens the door to NSCA's and leadership opportunities they'd be lining up, especially since encampment assistance funds were available this year.  I was thinking it might be a money issue (why go if I can't afford the special activities) but I see several of the NCSA's also offer scholarships.

What's the key to getting the cadets to attend?

[conca27]

We have the same problem in my squadron. We have around 60 cadets, but only 9 cadets going to encampment this year. I know many cadets in my squadron need encampment, but so few still applied. One of the problems with summer encampments is that they are often in the third or fourth week of July. Many people go on vacation during those weeks, and most NCSA's happen during this time as well. I know that in the past, people have had money problems that have prevented them from going. However, that is no longer an issue with the new Cadet Encampment Assistance Program. One of the main things squadrons should do to get cadets to attend encampment, is to heavily promote it and let all cadets know why it is one of the best CAP activities. You'll still have cadets who just choose not to go, but this will definitely help in the future. I do hope your cadets have a great time and learn a lot, because I certainly did in the two times I went.

[Ned]

I think we can and should do a better job of creating an "encampment expectation" for our troops.  One of the things I admired about the US Army cadet group was the expectation that all of  their cadets (and most leaders) would attend their "encampment equivalent"  every year during their membership.

We've kicked around a few ideas, including scheduling a cadet for encampment as part of their initial membership processing. ("Welcome to CAP, C/AB Jones.  We show you as the newest member of the Anytown Cadet Squadron in Yourwing.  We have scheduled you to attend the Yourwing encampment, currently scheduled for 17-25 JUL 2016.  That's only about ** months away, so you will want to advance your training and education rapidly to be ready!  If a scheduling conflict arises, let your squadron commander know as soon as possible so we can find another encampment slot for you.  Best Regards, Maj Gen Vasquez.")

The addition of a half million dollars of special encampment funding for this summer should help, because it appears that a record number of cadets will be attending and will undoubted report back on all the fun and excitement they experienced.

What are some other ideas?

[xray328]

I love that idea Ned. How do you handle uniforms though? It might be to tough to require a program that forces parents to fork out several hundred dollars in uniforms/gear.  Maybe the PT uniform replaces BDUs for encampments? Or maybe just for new cadets which would also help identify them.

I think an NHQ mandated encampment/ncsa briefing by the squadrons a couple times a year would also help.

[PHall]

I love that idea Ned. How do you handle uniforms though? It might be to tough to require a program that forces parents to fork out several hundred dollars in uniforms/gear.  Maybe the PT uniform replaces BDUs for encampments? Or maybe just for new cadets which would also help identify them.

I think an NHQ mandated encampment/ncsa briefing by the squadrons a couple times a year would also help.

Yeah, doing the O Course in PT shorts does not strike me as a good idea.

[xray328]

True. I'm just not sure how we force parents to pay for encampment gear. It's tough to mandate something like this if cap isn't funding both the encampment and at least requiring only a very basic uniform, especially for new cadets. "Welcome to cap, we know we said its $35 a year but we require you to pay $135 for our camp and $500 (that's in no way an exaggeration) for the uniforms required to go to said camp". Might have to change eliminate things the kids can't do in PT gear ( just thinking here). Or we increase membership fees to $xx(x?) and give each cadet a very basic utility uniform/pair of boots. Of course if we could figure out a way to have a steady stream of AF funding all the better.

How does the US Army cadet program handle it? No need to reinvent the wheel I guess.


Mandating a couple NHQ briefings would be a great place to start though. Professionally published video highlighting how great it is and how much greater the ncsa's are.  How many kids/parents even know ncsa's exist?

[HGjunkie]

How does the US Army cadet program handle it? No need to reinvent the wheel I guess.

From what I've read online they pay upwards of several thousands of dollars to attend their summer training programs.

[xray328]

Good grief...how many cadets are  they able to pull in at that cost?

[jdh]

I know my AFJROTC unit when I was in high school had a policy of having each new incoming cadet pay $150 uniform fee (and we didnt keep the uniforms after we left the program). You were issued 1 set of blues, a service coat and the windbreaker. If you were going to an event that required BDUs you could buy a set from the unit for about $45 (they were uniforms that the Air Force took back from washouts). Any damage you caused to the uniform you were required to cover. The fee was used to cover wear and tear as well as cleaning when the uniform was returned to logistics.

[PHall]

Good grief...how many cadets are  they able to pull in at that cost?

At it's highest you're only talking about a couple of hundred, if that many, cadets in the whole organization.

[xray328]

I know my AFJROTC unit when I was in high school had a policy of having each new incoming cadet pay $150 uniform fee (and we didnt keep the uniforms after we left the program). You were issued 1 set of blues, a service coat and the windbreaker. If you were going to an event that required BDUs you could buy a set from the unit for about $45 (they were uniforms that the Air Force took back from washouts). Any damage you caused to the uniform you were required to cover. The fee was used to cover wear and tear as well as cleaning when the uniform was returned to logistics.

Seems reasonable, I'm sure our AFJROTC unit did something similar. Too bad we aren't using the current AF uniform in that regard, I'm sure it's just a matter of time though.

I understand the need to keep costs down in attracting new cadets, but maybe that's something HQ could consider in the spirit of improving the overall new cadet experience, which would in turn get them eligible for NCSA's. That would possibly lead to higher retention as they'd see CAP isn't just about weekly meetings. The fact that 85% of cadets don't stick around long enough to earn their Mitchell is very unfortunate, seems like thats just when things get exciting (or did for me anyway).

[Tim Day]

I think we can and should do a better job of creating an "encampment expectation" for our troops.  One of the things I admired about the US Army cadet group was the expectation that all of  their cadets (and most leaders) would attend their "encampment equivalent"  every year during their membership.

We've kicked around a few ideas, including scheduling a cadet for encampment as part of their initial membership processing. ("Welcome to CAP, C/AB Jones.  We show you as the newest member of the Anytown Cadet Squadron in Yourwing.  We have scheduled you to attend the Yourwing encampment, currently scheduled for 17-25 JUL 2016.  That's only about ** months away, so you will want to advance your training and education rapidly to be ready!  If a scheduling conflict arises, let your squadron commander know as soon as possible so we can find another encampment slot for you.  Best Regards, Maj Gen Vasquez.")

The addition of a half million dollars of special encampment funding for this summer should help, because it appears that a record number of cadets will be attending and will undoubted report back on all the fun and excitement they experienced.

What are some other ideas?

We saw record numbers this year - we were on track for that even before CEAP - and one reason I suspect is that we advertised that we'd have actual training value versus the former perceived week-long session of purposeless screaming and mindless PT. Having a national curriculum that we can point to and even let people (parents especially) know where they can go to actually read that curriculum is a huge positive.

Having an advanced training flight helped as well. While the ATF didn't directly help with our first-time participation rate, I believe it is going to pay off in the future as cadets return to their squadrons with mid-level NCO skills rather than having repeated a year at encampment as a student. If we can bring up encampment's reputation as a schoolhouse I believe we'll get more support and more interest.

We plan on a wing-wide encampment education campaign this year. We need to do a better job of educating our cadre applicants on the reason for change (we're perceived as fixing something that ain't broke) and we owe potential students and their parents information on the value of encampment and our intentions for providing a true schoolhouse experience where cadets return to their squadrons with useful, standardized skills and a new appreciation for the cadet program.

Financially, if there is any way we can accelerate the CEAP process this year that would be a huge boost. I'm familiar with the programming process here at the Pentagon so I know the challenge. Along those lines, at least in Virginia the all-season cotton BDUs are not optimal for summer wear. We are doing the best we can to encourage folks to bring the cotton/poly blend BDUs, even if they are used.

[MSG Mac]

 May be because too often Cadets and Senior Members describe encampments as "Boot Camp"

[xray328]

I think we can and should do a better job of creating an "encampment expectation" for our troops.  One of the things I admired about the US Army cadet group was the expectation that all of  their cadets (and most leaders) would attend their "encampment equivalent"  every year during their membership.

We've kicked around a few ideas, including scheduling a cadet for encampment as part of their initial membership processing. ("Welcome to CAP, C/AB Jones.  We show you as the newest member of the Anytown Cadet Squadron in Yourwing.  We have scheduled you to attend the Yourwing encampment, currently scheduled for 17-25 JUL 2016.  That's only about ** months away, so you will want to advance your training and education rapidly to be ready!  If a scheduling conflict arises, let your squadron commander know as soon as possible so we can find another encampment slot for you.  Best Regards, Maj Gen Vasquez.")

The addition of a half million dollars of special encampment funding for this summer should help, because it appears that a record number of cadets will be attending and will undoubted report back on all the fun and excitement they experienced.

What are some other ideas?

We saw record numbers this year - we were on track for that even before CEAP - and one reason I suspect is that we advertised that we'd have actual training value versus the former perceived week-long session of purposeless screaming and mindless PT. Having a national curriculum that we can point to and even let people (parents especially) know where they can go to actually read that curriculum is a huge positive.

Having an advanced training flight helped as well. While the ATF didn't directly help with our first-time participation rate, I believe it is going to pay off in the future as cadets return to their squadrons with mid-level NCO skills rather than having repeated a year at encampment as a student. If we can bring up encampment's reputation as a schoolhouse I believe we'll get more support and more interest.

We plan on a wing-wide encampment education campaign this year. We need to do a better job of educating our cadre applicants on the reason for change (we're perceived as fixing something that ain't broke) and we owe potential students and their parents information on the value of encampment and our intentions for providing a true schoolhouse experience where cadets return to their squadrons with useful, standardized skills and a new appreciation for the cadet program.

Financially, if there is any way we can accelerate the CEAP process this year that would be a huge boost. I'm familiar with the programming process here at the Pentagon so I know the challenge. Along those lines, at least in Virginia the all-season cotton BDUs are not optimal for summer wear. We are doing the best we can to encourage folks to bring the cotton/poly blend BDUs, even if they are used.

Where are you buying them from?  I'm assuming those aren't the Vanguard variety?

[TheSkyHornet]

May be because too often Cadets and Senior Members describe encampments as "Boot Camp"

We've tried fairly hard at our squadron, as Seniors, to not scare away cadets from attending encampment, making sure we note it is not a boot camp, but a more stressful, loud military-esque weekend, but definitely not BCT/Boot.

Some cadets who previously attended, and those going as staff, tried to psych out the cadets with "The First Sergeant this year is mean..." but we did pretty good with prepping our cadets' volume and getting them to snap with their movements, looking sharp and staying focused, all while stressing that it isn't anything close to boot camp nor any hardcore military training. Most of them, before they went to encampment in June for Ohio Wing, had already watched plenty of videos online so they knew a bit what to expect when they got there.

I believe we had 7 cadets go as their first time, and 5 go as staff. That's pretty good consider only 1 active cadet wasn't able to attend because of a prior injury, but she says she definitely plans to go next year.

Our Squadron Commander did a great job really pushing cadets to go, and tried to get their parents to push them further for those who were a bit hesitant. This was my first time seeing my own cadets go to encampment, so I really didn't know a lot about it myself, but some of the more senior cadets and I worked to get the newbies prepared enough mentally, and I'd say it worked out really well. And it sounds like they had a lot of fun!

They already know I'm more tense than any cadet "yelling" at them anyway 

Hopefully next year, only our 1 wounded and a few new faces we have attending our meetings will be going with the rest all on staff.

Personally, I do wish it was mandatory to attend encampment, but as said previously, that may be a bit of a stretch, especially financially for both the cadets, the unit, and CAP overall.

[NIN]

My Sq had 17 cadets at summer encampment last week. 2-3 as cadet staff and the rest as first-timers. 

I have subscribed to Ned's idea for a number of years.  WIWAEC (When I Was An Encampment Commander) and Wing DCP, we had a goal number of "50% of cadets who needed encampment"  for attendance. That number fit OK with our facility capacity versus the number of cadets we had in the wing who needed encampment, usually.

What we did back then was to actually mail out two "invitations" to cadets: the first, usually around December or January, was for cadets who had completed an encampment, inviting them to apply for cadet staff.  (the underlying message being that we didn't want them to attend as a second-year student, to save that space for a cadet who *needed* encampment)  Then we'd send out a 2nd mailing to all the cadets who did not have a prior encampment, inviting them to apply for basic encampment, along about the March time-frame.

It was a pretty straightforward mailing, but definitely geared toward "You need this for your Mitchell," and that sort of angle.

[xray328]

We're going through the first encampment deal ourselves...its expensive.  Even with the curry voucher and encampment assistance.

Encampment assistance (Priority 2 - $125) paid for 1 BDU top, 1 BDU bottom, and 1 hat

Curry Voucher ($100) paid for a blue shirt and pants

Encampment itself is $135.

Our wing requires 3 sets of BDU's

So just in uniform expenses we still had to buy boots, blues shoes, flight cap with badge, belts x 2, two canteens with web belt, a "military style" rain coat (we went with the improved raincoat -$25 on ebay) two other sets of BDU's, patches for 3 sets, paying to sew on the patches ($5/patch x 15 patches), $40 to alter/hem the pants, 8 black shirts, and 8 pairs of boot socks.  Then there's all the extras on the packing list.  Did I mention we have 2 cadets  I'm thankful we could afford it all, but I know there's parents that can't, so maybe money is the reason afterall.

I know it's been said that it's cheap compared to other "camps", and that may be true.  But if we're going to require all of our cadets to go we need to either increase funding or require less gear.

So how do we address that?  Fundraisers maybe?  Can we setup a cadet with a path to earning his way?  And then at that point do they even want to attend?

[Tim Day]

Where are you buying them from?  I'm assuming those aren't the Vanguard variety?

We buy the blend BDUs from surplus stores, thrift stores, etc. We have some seniors who have built relationships with some of these places such that they call us first when they get them in.

[arajca]

We're going through the first encampment deal ourselves...its expensive.  Even with the curry voucher and encampment assistance.

Encampment assistance (Priority 2 - $125) paid for 1 BDU top, 1 BDU bottom, and 1 hat

Curry Voucher ($100) paid for a blue shirt and pants

Encampment itself is $135.

Our wing requires 3 sets of BDU's

So just in uniform expenses we still had to buy boots, blues shoes, flight cap with badge, belts x 2, two canteens with web belt, a "military style" rain coat (we went with the improved raincoat -$25 on ebay) two other sets of BDU's, patches for 3 sets, paying to sew on the patches ($5/patch x 15 patches), $40 to alter/hem the pants, 8 black shirts, and 8 pairs of boot socks.  Then there's all the extras on the packing list.  Did I mention we have 2 cadets  I'm thankful we could afford it all, but I know there's parents that can't, so maybe money is the reason afterall.

I know it's been said that it's cheap compared to other "camps", and that may be true.  But if we're going to require all of our cadets to go we need to either increase funding or require less gear.

So how do we address that?  Fundraisers maybe?  Can we setup a cadet with a path to earning his way?  And then at that point do they even want to attend?

When I got back into CAP, I was looking at over $100 to put patches on 2 field uniform blouses and one field jacket. It was cheaper to buy my own sewing machine and do it myself, which is what I did.

As for require gear and equipment, the vast majority is clothing. I don't really see a way to cut back on that unless you're going to provide laundry services, which would add another cost to encampment. When you look at the budget process for encampments, the first thing that is usually asked "is how can keep costs low?" Think about how much food a teenager will eat in a week (3 meals/day, 8 days - Sat to Sat, is 24 meals). That's a major part of the cost. The next biggest is what is the billeting cost. Some encampments can get free billeting, but not all. Then linens. To maintain standards, you'd have either include a standard linen set or require each participant to bring specific linens (more $$$ out of pocket). Then fuel for vehicles, unless you can get transportation support or everything is in easy marching distance. Encampments are not in the business of making money for the wing. Typically, the only bump in the price that is not cost related is for rounding (if cost comes to $148.53/cadet, the price is usually $150 for convenience).

I know my squadron has sufficient funding to provide each cadet who goes to encampment or other CAP activity with a 50% reimbursement scholarship. To get it, they need to give a 5-10 minute presentation on encampment (or whatever activity they attended). We reimburse 50% of the cost they (or their parents) paid out of pocket. If they got CEAP support or other financial assistance, we only cover 50% of what's left over. I also know few other squadrons have this ability.

[xray328]

I don't think encampment fees themselves are the issue really.  Most parents can swing the $135-$150 if given a few months to prepare.  Maybe the laundry thing is a good idea though if facilities are available.  Assign a laundry detail maybe?  Would raising the cost to $175 still be reasonable if they only had to buy/bring one set of BDU's?  Might do them good to do their own laundry 

[arajca]

I don't think encampment fees themselves are the issue really.  Most parents can swing the $135-$150 if given a few months to prepare.  Maybe the laundry thing is a good idea though if facilities are available.  Assign a laundry detail maybe?  Would raising the cost to $175 still be reasonable if they only had to buy/bring one set of BDU's?  Might do them good to do their own laundry 

Let's see:
Assuming a standard 8 day encampment:
3 washes
120 cadets
Add underwear, socks, blues shirts
white t-shirts
black t-shirts
PT clothing (3 days in can get RIPE!)
45 mins for wash
45 mins for dry
?? hours for sorting, if multiple cadets in one load
How many washers/dryers available?
Turnaround time for commercial laundry services (usually don't work at night)

[xray328]

I was referring to BDUs only since that's one of biggest costs involved (if you require 3 sets). Maybe you take 10 cadets to the local laundry mat? Just brainstorming. Sorting isn't that big of a deal. They mark their items and when they come back you toss it all out and they find it themselves. 120 bdu sets divided by 10 cadets, so 12 sets each. I think it's doable, but again that's only if they wanted a mandatory encampment. Im just thinking doing laundry seems like a more reasonable idea than requiring each and every cadets parents to fork out hundreds of dollars in uniforms.

[arajca]

There's a lot of coordination issues involved and you'd be taking the cadets out of encampment for 2 hours minimum plus at least 1 senior escort/driver.

[xray328]

All true. Any suggestions? How do we make it more affordable so more cadets can attend (assuming that's the issue)? I'd be interested in a survey just to see what the top few reasons are.

Ned, can HQ put together something to promote the encampments, maybe that ties into NCSA's? It'd be great to present something like that to the squadron. Maybe we start there?

[Al Sayre]

Here's a thought: 
Instead of 2 or 3 sets of BDU's, have the Cadets wear blue jeans and an encampment t-shirt (like NESA and Glider academies) for most events.
Include cost of t-shirto in encampment price. 5 t-shirts per cadet @ $6.00 per shirt (I'm guessing on cost, but that's about right if buying large lots.) adds $30 to encampment cost, but removes $200 in uniform costs
Different colors for each flight
Different colors for staff positions
It could be worked out.

I know, I know, HERESY! Burn the witch!!!

[arajca]

Here's a thought: 
Instead of 2 or 3 sets of BDU's, have the Cadets wear blue jeans and an encampment t-shirt (like NESA and Glider academies) for most events.
Include cost of t-shirto in encampment price. 5 t-shirts per cadet @ $6.00 per shirt (I'm guessing on cost, but that's about right if buying large lots.) adds $30 to encampment cost, but removes $200 in uniform costs
Different colors for each flight
Different colors for staff positions
It could be worked out.

I know, I know, HERESY! Burn the witch!!!

Interesting idea, but gets away from the military flavor encampment tries to emulate. Additionally, the 'extra' bdus are useful for more than just encampment. Especially if the cadet gets into ES.

[xray328]

Yeah but this is being aimed at new cadets, they'll have an entire year to get their 3 sets of BDUs. If they had cap t-shirts it'd be a compromise.  We have to cut costs somewhere, maybe it's BDUs a couple days, blues one day and the rest in the shorts/jeans and t-shirts? That'd allow you to still do the obstacle course etc.

[CAPRAT123]

I feel that most Cadets who you ask why their not attending
Encampment always say, "I won't make it to my Mitchell award" or "I don't need to go because I won't be in that long". I think it's because they have an overwhelming anxiety, because they have heard to many "War Stories" from real BMT. As a Cadet NCO I try to help the Cadet work through that anxiety, but of course
my anxiety reason is true in about 45%-60% of the time so a good
amount of Cadets still have a different reason.

[railpig314]

If a cadet does not attend encampment in their first year, your going to loose them. When I was a squadron commander I required all new cadets to attend encampment. It really helps with retention. The cadets get to meet other cadets. I have life long friends from encampment. You need to sell all of the cool things they will do there. From the "o" flights to being on a military base. If your a senior and you have never been to Encampment you should consider it. How can you sell it if you have never been. Just a few thoughts.

[railpig314]

Oh yeah, the jeans and t-shirt thing is a really poor idea. As NIN says when I was a cadet I paid for a lot of my own equipment. We are trying for a military type training environment. If you want to wear jeans and t-shirts go to Boy Scout Camp. CAP= come and pay. Buck up some money or dip into the squadron fund ( squadron commanders pocket).  I had to do it. I was a little scared going to encampment, but it was really fun! My first encampment was in 1991. Our senior members need to go and sell it to cadets! The squadron commander should go to. It's a really good idea. Again just some comments....

[xray328]

Goes along with the idea that cadets need to see what goes on outside of weekly meetings, heck if that's all this was I'd be bored with it too [emoji5]️

[xray328]

Oh yeah, the jeans and t-shirt thing is a really poor idea. As NIN says when I was a cadet I paid for a lot of my own equipment. We are trying for a military type training environment. If you want to wear jeans and t-shirts go to Boy Scout Camp. CAP= come and pay. Buck up some money or dip into the squadron fund ( squadron commanders pocket).  I had to do it. I was a little scared going to encampment, but it was really fun! My first encampment was in 1991. Our senior members need to go and sell it to cadets! The squadron commander should go to. It's a really good idea. Again just some comments....

Assuming the senior members can't pay, how do you suggest we get them the uniforms to maintain the "military type training environment " (no attitude intended)? I mean yeah it's a great theory and in an ideal world...but how can we require every cadet to attend something that requires several hundred dollars in uniforms? That's gonna kill our numbers.  I think one of the attractions to the program is that it's $35 to join.  Do we tell them up front you're required to spend several hundred dollars soon after? Does this become a rich kids organization? Fundraising seems like a viable option unless we can get additional AF funding.  Honestly, I'm not sure what the answer is, I just don't think you can mandate something without addressing the money issue required to attend it.

Maybe CAP does something regarding used uniforms on a larger scale?

Can we not maintain a military training environment if new cadets wear something besides BDU's? If all the staff is in uniform and we had new cadets in something else but still the same (black cap t-shirts ?) we'd be able to not only identify our new cadets but also take the financial burden off the parents. It's just their first encampment were talking about not their entire cap "career".  They wear BDUs at weekly meetings, were not depriving them.

No disrespect intended, please don't take any offense,  I'm just looking for solutions to improve our organization [emoji4]

And again, this all assumes we make encampments mandatory. I just hate to see a pay to play situation because I think we can all agree that encampments which in turn lead to NCSAs could very well play a huge role in cadet retention.

[Ned]

From my perspective, encampment is indeed required of all cadets.  Simply because all cadets are required to progress regularly in the program, and the Mitchell Award requires an encampment.  Most cadets who earn the Mitchell do so after 2 or 3 years in the program.

I heartily agree that encampment attendance is one of the most important factors in retention of cadets, and I also agree that experience "outside the squadron" is important as well.

And as the father of a former cadet, I know from personal experience that encampment is not cheap.  Especially if multiple family members attend.

Encampment expense is addressed in several ways.  Initially, of course, encampment dates are normally known many months in advance, allowing the cadet and her/his family time to plan and gather resources.  My folks made me earn the majority of my encampment expense to ensure that I felt "invested" in the experience.  As mentioned by others, some units match funds or otherwise subsidize encampment costs.  Additionally, many wings also help out cadets who need assistance.  When I was the California DCP our official policy was that no cadet would be denied encampment for a lack of funds.  I had a network of former cadets who would jump in to help  without hesitation. 

And this year, of course, we had an unexpected windfall of USAF funding to help with encampment expenses for disadvantaged cadets.

It may also be helpful to remember that CAP encampments are relatively inexpensive when compared to other youth summer activities like Scout camps, band or cheer camps, etc. 

Finally, I would encourage all of us to take a close look at encampment uniform and equipment expenses.  I have commanded a fair number of encampments, and have a hard time imagining why two sets of BDUs would not be sufficient.  I'm not criticizing our hard working encampment commanders who may have specified 3 sets, but the reasons are not immediately apparent to me.

I have also encouraged cadets to share or pool BDUs with cadets heading off to encampment.  There are relatively few sizes of BDUs in any event, and swapping out a nametape is a relatively simple procedure.

It seems rather unlikely that we will significantly alter the prescribed military intensity level for our cadet encampments, and one of the key tools leaders use to set an intensity level are our uniforms.  It is difficult for me to even imagine an encampment conducted in anything other than full CAP uniforms.

But it sounds like we all agree that encampment is a terrific and worthwhile experience for all of our members.  Let's see what we can do to get more of our cadets to attend.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

[Slim]

+1 for encampment attendance.  My unit's expectation is that everyone goes.  This year, we have two seniors (myself and the unit commander), the cadet commander of encampment is from my squadron, I have three other cadets going on staff, two for RCLS, one for our NCO school, and at least three first timers.  That's not including one cadet who is submitting paperwork tomorrow (not enough time), and one who just transferred in from another wing. 

Funding:  There are many ways to raise funds to send cadets to encampment.  Just because you don't necessarily have the dates yet doesn't mean it's not going to happen.  The easiest way for a unit to raise funds is Wreaths Across America.  Sell 50 wreath sponsorships, your unit gets $250 back  Get everyone in the squadron going on that, and it adds up in a huge way.  There are also the traditional ways--sales (candy, pizza kits, wrapping paper, etc.), car washes, pancake breakfast/spaghetti dinner; all good, but the profit margin for you is so small that it takes forever to get anywhere.  One year, my unit raised enough funds selling wreath sponsorships that everyone who went to encampment went on the squadron, and still had enough to send people to wing conference (fees and rooms paid by the squadron).  And we do that every year.  There are other alternatives as well; service clubs being the big ones.  Have a cadet with problems funding encampment?  Have them contact the local VFW post, tell them what you're looking for, and ask to come in and give a presentation.  AmVets, AmLegion, Marine Corps League, Eagles, Lions, etc, are all out there and willing to help America's youth to become better citizens and future leaders.

Uniforms:  Honestly, I had to look at our packing list for this year to see what's required for BDUs, one shirt and two pair of trousers.  Logic being that the pants will probably get dirtier from sitting on the ground and other rigors of encampment.  Three full sets does seem kind of excessive; then again, when I go to encampment, I have at least two sets, plus the (last resort) option of a flight suit if needed.

Laundry facilities:  I don't know about anywhere else, but I've never attended an encampment that didn't have some kind of do-it-yourself laundry facilities on base.  I'm not saying cadets should be doing laundry every day, or even every other, but health and welfare alone should dictate that those BDUs and PT uniforms get washed at least once (preferably twice) during the week.  The CRTC we have our encampment at has a laundry facility with probably 30 each washers and dryers, for free; just add detergent and maybe softener sheets (if you're doing mass loads, get hypoallergenic).  Personally, I only take enough clothes for 3-4 days; but, I have the freedom to do laundry whenever I need to.  With two sets of BDUs, I'm on a wear today/wash tomorrow rotation with them, and I do my laundry during the day while cadets are in class and anyone else who may be there is working/training, while everyone else is using them in the evening. 

Retention:  +1000 to what everyone else said.  An encampment within that first year is crucial.  But, don't try to rush someone into the program and through the first achievement to do it.  Example: I have a 14 year old prospect turning in paperwork (actually, mom and the commander are doing it on line) tomorrow night, while out encampment starts in a little over two weeks.  No way in h-e-double hockey sticks are we going to push her to get Curry, outfit her with uniforms, and pour enough knowledge into her head so that she'll be successful.  Sorry, there's always next year.  But, of all my first timers going, only one is not in the first year of membership.  Also, don't discount the retention value for returnees either.  Staff/cadre, advanced schools, and senior staff all reap the benefits and rewards of going to encampment.  Anyone who knows me will know that I love encampment, that one week of the year is what makes the other 51 worth while.  I have yet to come home from one where my batteries weren't recharged and I was ready to go for another year.  I had to take a couple of years off, and it was really tough to keep going with everything CAP for those couple of years.  And I will also verify the fact that I've made life-long friends in CAP and at encampment--including that choo-choo cop up there.

[railpig314]

Oh yeah, the jeans and t-shirt thing is a really poor idea. As NIN says when I was a cadet I paid for a lot of my own equipment. We are trying for a military type training environment. If you want to wear jeans and t-shirts go to Boy Scout Camp. CAP= come and pay. Buck up some money or dip into the squadron fund ( squadron commanders pocket).  I had to do it. I was a little scared going to encampment, but it was really fun! My first encampment was in 1991. Our senior members need to go and sell it to cadets! The squadron commander should go to. It's a really good idea. Again just some comments....

Assuming the senior members can't pay, how do you suggest we get them the uniforms to maintain the "military type training environment " (no attitude intended)? I mean yeah it's a great theory and in an ideal world...but how can we require every cadet to attend something that requires several hundred dollars in uniforms? That's gonna kill our numbers.  I think one of the attractions to the program is that it's $35 to join.  Do we tell them up front you're required to spend several hundred dollars soon after? Does this become a rich kids organization? Fundraising seems like a viable option unless we can get additional AF funding.  Honestly, I'm not sure what the answer is, I just don't think you can mandate something without addressing the money issue required to attend it.

Maybe CAP does something regarding used uniforms on a larger scale?

Can we not maintain a military training environment if new cadets wear something besides BDU's? If all the staff is in uniform and we had new cadets in something else but still the same (black cap t-shirts ?) we'd be able to not only identify our new cadets but also take the financial burden off the parents. It's just their first encampment were talking about not their entire cap "career".  They wear BDUs at weekly meetings, were not depriving them.

No disrespect intended, please don't take any offense,  I'm just looking for solutions to improve our organization [emoji4]

And again, this all assumes we make encampments mandatory. I just hate to see a pay to play situation because I think we can all agree that encampments which in turn lead to NCSAs could very well play a huge role in cadet retention.

[railpig314]

Yeah,
Typical response. I am offended. What do you want? Everything for free?
I never had a problem coming up with funds or equipment. I had a part time job and parents who gave a crap!

Yeah, back in my day we were getting surplus BDU's. They were always trashed. We bought our own.

We are going for a "military style" training environment. That means we need to be in uniform. Not pieces. Not t-shirts. If you have never been to encampment I guess you just don't get it. That's fine, CAP is not for everyone. We are trying to instill teamwork and uniformity in to cadets.

I have lived almost my entire life in one uniform or another. When my real job buys my crappy equipment I go out and buy my own. Like I said before, CAP= come and pay. You really get what you pay for. Spend some money on your Cadet!

I really resent this because as a former squadron commander, I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money outfitting cadets, paying for encampment and cadet special activities. Some people call it stupid. I call it an investment!

[xray328]

What do I want? More kids to attend encampment, whatever that takes.

I'm up for doing whatever it takes to get the kids to encampments because we all agree on it's importance. We have a problem with encampment attendance, lets just find an answer.

If fundraising's that answer that's wonderful, lets do that.  I certainly don't think Squadron commanders should have to pay thousands of dollars to make this happen. That being said I applaud you sir for doing that, clearly you care about your cadets and have sacrificed over the years for them and I agree that it is most definitely an investment, as is the time we spend with our cadets each and every week.

I'm all for figuring out what the barrier is and fixing it, whatever that takes.  If it's a money issue, lets find a solution.  If it's misinformation, let's address it.  If we haven't gotten the word out, lets brief them.  I'm willing to do whatever it takes to fix the problem because I believe in the effect it will have on our cadets.

If lack of money was the issue (which might not even be the case), looking at the required uniforms was one option.  Clearly there's resistance to that for reasons I certainly understand. So let's find another way of fixing the problem, whatever it is.

Again, let's just figure out the barrier and and do what we can to remove it. 

[TheSkyHornet]

Yeah,
Typical response. I am offended. What do you want? Everything for free?
I never had a problem coming up with funds or equipment. I had a part time job and parents who gave a crap!

Yeah, back in my day we were getting surplus BDU's. They were always trashed. We bought our own.

We are going for a "military style" training environment. That means we need to be in uniform. Not pieces. Not t-shirts. If you have never been to encampment I guess you just don't get it. That's fine, CAP is not for everyone. We are trying to instill teamwork and uniformity in to cadets.

I have lived almost my entire life in one uniform or another. When my real job buys my crappy equipment I go out and buy my own. Like I said before, CAP= come and pay. You really get what you pay for. Spend some money on your Cadet!

I really resent this because as a former squadron commander, I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money outfitting cadets, paying for encampment and cadet special activities. Some people call it stupid. I call it an investment!

Keep in mind that the budget required for cadets versus seniors is very different, especially with the younger cadets who stay in the program. One of the hardest financial problems is getting uniforms that fit the cadets over a period of time, because kids grow. That goes for blouses, pants, shirts, covers, shoes, socks, what have you. It isn't cheap.

A lot of parents see CAP as an extracurricular activity and simply don't believe it is worth the financial investment, and that really is a fair argument. Our squadron is in a very rural area, and we have some families that you can tell really can't afford to put the money out for their kid to play "soldier" (in their mind) on top of "real life." Our squadron does what we can. Unfortunately, a lot of the fundraising comes at the cost of doing some fairly crappy events (selling hot dogs or popcorn at a street fair, handing out bottled water at a marathon, you get the point...events that really don't have a whole lot of incentive for CAP members to show up).

There comes a point where you can't financially support everyone through charity in CAP. More money isn't going to flow in from the top, so the solution is either tell the cadets they have to get their own items at their own cost, or that the squadron will raise the funds. And when the squadron can't raise enough funds, you can either tell the cadets that they still need to front their own cost or cut back on standards. My understanding is that our squadron senior member leadership has been very relaxed with letting uniform issues slide because the budget isn't there to make sure everything is kept to the text of the regulations. It doesn't look good when it comes time to have an inspection because it doesn't look standard, but it's either that or tell cadets they can't participate if they don't pay their own way.

Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to that practice---that if you can't afford it, you can't do it. But we try not to make that an end-all standard.

This isn't the military. There isn't a flood of trillions of dollars coming in which include equipment and uniforms for all, and when you need a new uniform, you just go over to the Supply Office and exchange what you have and put it on your clothing allowance.

[Paul_AK]

There comes a point where you can't financially support everyone through charity in CAP. More money isn't going to flow in from the top, so the solution is either tell the cadets they have to get their own items at their own cost, or that the squadron will raise the funds. And when the squadron can't raise enough funds, you can either tell the cadets that they still need to front their own cost or cut back on standards. My understanding is that our squadron senior member leadership has been very relaxed with letting uniform issues slide because the budget isn't there to make sure everything is kept to the text of the regulations. It doesn't look good when it comes time to have an inspection because it doesn't look standard, but it's either that or tell cadets they can't participate if they don't pay their own way.

Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to that practice---that if you can't afford it, you can't do it. But we try not to make that an end-all standard.

This isn't the military. There isn't a flood of trillions of dollars coming in which include equipment and uniforms for all, and when you need a new uniform, you just go over to the Supply Office and exchange what you have and put it on your clothing allowance.

I've found that most families can handle recurring costs as long as they're planned out or expected but sometimes it may be enough of a burden that a promising cadet has to drop out. So some of us share in that mindset. Some of those uniforms have been issued out three or four times to cadets of various standards. Some take care of their stuff and some don't so when it comes time to trade up or turn in wear and tear varies greatly. We've been fortunate that we have had a good stock of uniforms but we've played with the idea of possibly going farther in setting up some kind of voucher system to get items sewn on or incidentals. But there is always going to be some burden on the membership for upkeep.

As to leniency I would agree there is a gray area. I'm going to hold them to standards but I'm not going to be quite as nitpicky with cadets as one would be during a Guard mount.

[Thonawit]

I took my son and 2 other cadets to encampment this year. Our DCC and myself scrambled to make sure each Cadet had 2 sets of BDU's. We got lucky with the AF Scholarship.

Our unit did pay for the cadets to go to the encampment along with the gas money for the trip.

Our major problem is the local economy, there ain't one. The town I live in has about a 40% poverty rate if not more. We have cadets who can't afford to buy multiple uniforms. Before anybody says pay to play, consider this because of the quality of the unit, we have managed to keep kids out of gangs, and in the past few years we have had 2 cadets make it into service academies. One came from a very poor household, successfully graduated and now serves our Country.

At the unit level, we do our best to keep things inexpensive for cadets and their parents. I have raided thrift stores, surplus stores, pawn shops and any place else that might have BDU's or Blues. In the past year, we have increased the number of Blues uniforms form about 5 pairs of pants and a few shirts to about 25 pairs of pants and well over 50 shirts (long and short sleeve) all of it Blues. Our BDU stock is nothing. I use Ebay for BDU's you can get decent deals at times.

I got off on my own tangent...

It was the first encampment for all 3 cadets, they all had a fantastic time. All of the Cadets showed growth and potential leadership. We has 2 other cadets who did not go to encampment because they had not been in CAP long enough (2 months). We have started working with the parents of the cadets to start getting items here and there for encampment next summer.

There is fundraising... Here is our problem, competition for that $5 bill once a month is fierce. Last weekend driving through town, I counted 5 car wash fundraisers none of them had "customers". You constantly see kids selling this or that to raise funds for what ever group or activity. Once again we are an impoverished town and fund raising options are few with marginal success.

One of the main problems is our Cadets out grow their uniforms sometimes very quickly. The Blues pants that were slightly long on my son in May are now about an inch and a half short, and we have re-hemmed the pants twice. We can supply pants and shirts, it's the rest of the uniform that can get expensive. (look at the cost of a belt on Vanguard, I will make it easy http://www.vanguardmil.com/products/air-force-belt-blue-cotton-with-mirror-tip-male?variant=1153452812).

I have looked at the costs associated with Scouts. Scouts cost much more when you consider a Jamboree.

Lots of rambling and tangents later.

There is a cost associated with CAP, Scouting, School Sports, ETC. Going to a "Summer Camp" does cost money, it depends on what a parent can afford for their kids, that is the bottom line. We need to be very careful with the "Pay to Play" attitude as that becomes very exclusionary when there are potential Cadets and Seniors that could become outstanding members despite their economic situation. As a whole, we need to figure out ways to mitigate the costs associated with CAP to get Cadets to encampments and other CAP activities, not as individuals but CAP as a whole.

I have used my word allotment for the day...

[TheSkyHornet]

We've been fortunate that we have had a good stock of uniforms but we've played with the idea of possibly going farther in setting up some kind of voucher system to get items sewn on or incidentals.

Whereas in our unit, supplies are so short-handed, it's becoming a burden just to tell newer cadets "Well, we can see what we have...."

So far, the newer sign-ups have had parents say "Whatever the uniform cost is, we'll pay it." (Careful, don't let national find out ) But we've managed to keep our cadets in-stock just enough to get them to where they need to be. But we are definitely running out of uniform stores.

As to leniency I would agree there is a gray area. I'm going to hold them to standards but I'm not going to be quite as nitpicky with cadets as one would be during a Guard mount.

+1  :clap:

Our major problem is the local economy, there ain't one. The town I live in has about a 40% poverty rate if not more. We have cadets who can't afford to buy multiple uniforms. Before anybody says pay to play, consider this because of the quality of the unit, we have managed to keep kids out of gangs, and in the past few years we have had 2 cadets make it into service academies. One came from a very poor household, successfully graduated and now serves our Country.

Our locale isn't the most well-off, nor the most impoverished. But we do have those occasional people who just can't afford to keep paying in addition to the membership. And we're one of the cheaper units in the region when it comes to member dues for seniors and cadets. Although, most of the parents have been very helpful with making sure their cadets have uniforms. Sometimes, it's the cadets who don't take the initiative to get the proper items to start with and end up with their parents buying an item that shouldn't have necessarily been purchased (wrong belt, etc.).

One of the main problems is our Cadets out grow their uniforms sometimes very quickly. The Blues pants that were slightly long on my son in May are now about an inch and a half short, and we have re-hemmed the pants twice. We can supply pants and shirts, it's the rest of the uniform that can get expensive. (look at the cost of a belt on Vanguard, I will make it easy http://www.vanguardmil.com/products/air-force-belt-blue-cotton-with-mirror-tip-male?variant=1153452812).

Growing cadets is a huge problem...okay, not a problem, but an adversary to their finances. Considering I'm about the same size as most of our cadets (if not shorter ) it isn't so much a problem for the smaller ones who really won't grow too much more. But the ones that go from 5'2 and jump to 6'0 in a couple of years are the most financially-burdened. Unless we can supply it, it's their responsibility to get their uniforms, and the voucher program, as far as my understanding of it, isn't going to accommodate those pesky growing adolescents very well.