NCO Program Launched

[sarmed1]

The point I am gathering from the degree vs not degree battle is not to make it more difficult to join and progress.  You want to join and be a worker bee (or technical specialist) go the NCO route.  You want to be in charge and manage beyond the front-line supervisor level; be an officer, but wait: there is a higher level of expectation of ability/knowledge required on that side...comparable to the principles taught in college level programs; hence a degree requirement.

mk

[Eclipse]

Two issues there.

There's no "worker bee / leader" caste in a volunteer organization.  Everyone is supposed to be both.

Second, that requirement would cut off a significant population of sitting CC's, not to mention the future channel,
impacting the very existence of many units, and if it's "OK" to back fill until someone better comes around,
then you're defeating your purpose and negating the need.

The military, and in many cases private industry, can require a degree because they have the means to
pay for that degree and build their own folks, and the ROI on the effort is at least equal in terms of monetary compensation.

[sarmed1]

Two issues there.

There's no "worker bee / leader" caste in a volunteer organization.  Everyone is supposed to be both.

Second, that requirement would cut off a significant population of sitting CC's, not to mention the future channel,
impacting the very existence of many units, and if it's "OK" to back fill until someone better comes around,
then you're defeating your purpose and negating the need.

....

1-Sure there is: I have been in a number of them.  They usually come from the same pool, but there are usually (and there frequently should) be requirements to move to the "leader" caste...either as a pre-appointment or post (ie the within 6 months.....sort of requirement)

2-I have heard that argument in numerous other volunteer organizations....higher education requirements...and how "they will FORCE X,Y,Z out of existence..."   Often times in the long run it really is for the better.  I am sure its been heard in CAP before.   But, maybe its not "time" for CAP yet......

mk 

[Shuman 14]

I wonder if the restructuring of the Officer Corps could be something along the lines that was mentioned in the May 2013 CAP Senior Advisory Group minutes:

Wow, I like that.   :clap:

Concur. makes sense and a degree would be a reasonable justification for promotion beyond 1LT.

Requiring a unpaid volunteer to earn a 4yr college degree would be a bit excessive of a requirement. However, I do believe that requiring completion of the Officer Course before promotion to an officer is a reasonable requirement and one that I would strongly support.

For Captain and above, it's really not that excessive if you think of it in the broader picture of military grade alignment and how the "real world" operates today.

Plus with the new NCO Corps, the expectation of new senior members won't be to make LTC their capstone grade in CAP... CMSgt will be... if they don't have a degree.

[Shuman 14]

While browsing commissioning requirements I came across this from the USCG for OCS eligibility: 

6.     Education:

        -Have a baccalaureate or higher degree or
        -Receive the ACE recommended score on the five general CLEP exams (i.e. English Composition, Humanities, Natural Science, College     
           Mathematics, Social Science/History) or
       -Have one year of college (30 semester hours or 45 quarter hours) and have completed at least one college-level mathematics course, or
           receive the ACE recommended score on the College Mathematics CLEP exam

I would support something along those lines:  That's about $500 if you want to be a CAP officer and don't have a degree (I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

mk

A better path would be to appoint them to CAP's pseudo "warrant" grades of Flight Officers.

[Shuman 14]

(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

[CAPAPRN]

Did anyone read Gen. Carr's Blog? He seems to make it quite clear this program is ONLY for former enlisted NCO's:

"The changes open CAP's doors wide open to NCOs, present and past, in all military branches. Joining CAP is now more attractive to NCOs, who can progress in rank within the CAP NCO corps and assume a wide variety of responsibilities. In turn, our members, and CAP as a whole, will benefit from their skills, training, discipline and experience."

That would seem to indicate the only change is that the current NCO's will now be promotion eligible. No college degrees for officers, no ABU's no Khaki's , nothing changes! What a surprise

[Shuman 14]

Personally I am inclined to say (compromise between the degree vs no degree groups) an associates is acceptable for O-1 to O-3 and that 4 year degree is not a requirement until promotion to Major.

....

CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

You could go really hog wild with this:  If the thought process is to have a "higher level of educational ability" comparable to RM officers that have a 4 year degree, yet you want to create an internal training program why not create a "CAP University" program.  Perhaps an online "school" that teaches you the fundamentals of the 5 CLEP exams and preps you for the exam.  If you want the real CLEP credit pay the fees and take the tests, if you just want the CAP "commission" just complete the courses.

I would venture to say there needs to be "more" to round out the "credit hours" to be comparable to an associates degree; I am sure similar to the Community College of the Air Force giving credit for basic/tech school/CDC; you could come up with a course/credit comparison to say OBC, SLS and Technician ratings.  Of course there would need to be a change to the CAP PD schedule.....

just brain storming......

mk

Excellent idea!

This could also be a recruitment tool... join CAP and you can earn credits towards an accredited degree.

[abdsp51]

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact. 

[Shuman 14]

The point I am gathering from the degree vs not degree battle is not to make it more difficult to join and progress.  You want to join and be a worker bee (or technical specialist) go the NCO route.  You want to be in charge and manage beyond the front-line supervisor level; be an officer, but wait: there is a higher level of expectation of ability/knowledge required on that side...comparable to the principles taught in college level programs; hence a degree requirement.

mk

Exactly.

And, if you make more use of the Flight Officer grades for qualified pilots you get the complete package:

SMWO (Enlisted)

CAP NCO Corps

Flight Officers (Warrant)

CAP Officer Corps

[abdsp51]

I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development. 

[Shuman 14]

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact.

Good point I forgot the Academy, but ROTC, OCS and direct commissions all require education outside of the military to receive the commission.

BTW, what's the percentage of USAF Officer commissioning from the Academy versus the other sources?

[Shuman 14]

I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.

And what is your age group, what business are you in/were you in?

And in my proposed plan, the degree is not required to join... just get promoted to Captain or higher.

FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Did anyone read Gen. Carr's Blog? He seems to make it quite clear this program is ONLY for former enlisted NCO's:

"The changes open CAP's doors wide open to NCOs, present and past, in all military branches. Joining CAP is now more attractive to NCOs, who can progress in rank within the CAP NCO corps and assume a wide variety of responsibilities. In turn, our members, and CAP as a whole, will benefit from their skills, training, discipline and experience."

That would seem to indicate the only change is that the current NCO's will now be promotion eligible. No college degrees for officers, no ABU's no Khaki's , nothing changes! What a surprise

Have you read anything else? That's just part of it.

[cap235629]

FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

In what universe?

You make overly broad statements that are based on your limited experience.

[Eclipse]

Did anyone read Gen. Carr's Blog? He seems to make it quite clear this program is ONLY for former enlisted NCO's:

Did you read the actual proposal or the press releases from CAP or the USAF?  Both indicate that non-military members
will have the oportuntiy to become CAP NCOs.

And following many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.

This.

[Eclipse]

FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

Not even a little.

[PHall]

(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

No, you can have a PhD and still enlist in the Air Force. You might get some questions and weird looks from the Recruiters, but you can.

[abdsp51]

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact.

Good point I forgot the Academy, but ROTC, OCS and direct commissions all require education outside of the military to receive the commission.

BTW, what's the percentage of USAF Officer commissioning from the Academy versus the other sources?

You know little of what you speak.  And to your other questions I spent 12 years wearing a badge and beret for the AF and now I currently deploy people and cargo.  And some of the best leaders I have had did not have degrees and could run circles around those who did.  Your attention to detail and blinders are really troublesome. 

[a2capt]