NCO Program Launched

[Private Investigator]

That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011. 

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.

Well you miss this one from July 1947. http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=17881.0

I always thought the "salute me" thing was related to senility but since some youngsters has been accused of the same, it might be just silliness, JMHO   

[Eclipse]

The truth is that not even you can say that a change in grade structure, professional development and/or membership roles "cannot and will never exist in CAP".

Yeah, I really can.

Grade structure, PD, sure.  That's just deck chairs. 

Member roles?  No way.  Not unless they start running a payroll.

For every unit that's got enough tight and right seniors to even entertain the idea, there's one (maybe two) run by a den-mom who doesn't even understand
the conversation, nor is she interested in it.   Right or wrong, you run those people down or out and CAP folds.

[Private Investigator]

I know reading isn't a college-educated-only type of skill...

What about reading comprehension? I really can not believe how dumb, smart people are   

[Private Investigator]

I think that as a Civilian Auxiliary of the Air Force that we don't really need the grade.  However that goes against the grain of our tradition since our inception so I accept it.

That is a good point. 

[Flying Pig]

I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   

[SARDOC]

I would venture to guess that outside of CAPTalk, the vast majority of CAP probably doesnt even know this is coming!   

You know that's right.  Other than the posts on the CAPMEMBERS.com website, I haven't seen anything through the other traditional lines of communication.

[Panache]

I don't consider it a burn just because you all can't figure out how to use Google.

I guess they don't teach that in college.

But in your rush to "prove a point" you seem to have missed "the point".
[snip]
Somehow, because you seem to have a need to prove a degree is worthless, you pull out a worthless degree out of the pile.

Holy defensive reaction, Batman!  You're reading way, way, way too much into a throw-away comment I made.

And as I've already stated upthread (to Storm Chaser I believe) that formal college education (and more!) is indeed a good thing for certain career paths.  I recognize that. 

[Panache]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

umm WOW!....  In theory its only a title change, the PD looks to me like its pretty much the same thing.  I am not sure how that suddenly devalued your work and effort?  Because you cant tell people you are a CAPT/MAJ/LTC in the USAF... auxillary?......

Thank you for completely ignoring the reason I stated why I would do that, and focusing on the cosmetic.

[Panache]

I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

^ This.

The "commissioned" officer grades should be reserved for those actively holding command positions.

[SARDOC]

I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

^ This.

The "commissioned" officer grades should be reserved for those actively holding command positions.

I think your interpretation of those who should hold those grades is too restrictive.  Technically, Command Positions are those holding the Title of Commander or Deputy/Vice Commander.  This would not include positions like the Wing Chief of Staff, or the Directors on the wing staff.  These positions can wield a lot of authority and responsibility that are totally deserving of the grade that reflects that position.  But, Of course, that's only when grade indicates what it implies, which we don't have under our current Professional Development system.

[FW]

No, because that cannot and will never exist in CAP, not as long as people can come and go as they choose, change jobs
with the weather, and we're under manned by 50%+.

Maybe nothing will ever change; or maybe it will. The truth is that not even you can say that a change in grade structure, professional development and/or membership roles "cannot and will never exist in CAP". Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You're obviously against the proposed NCO changes and yet the National Commander and national CAP leadership decided to move forward with them. Change, for better or worse, is sometimes inevitable.

The facts are; we have a new grade structure in CAP.  We know it was developed to retain members.  We also know there are no real details on the development of the NCO program, its implimentation, or how the total PD program in CAP will be changed. 
After hundreds of comments speculating all that may happen, I would only hope our leadership will take these remarks to heart.  It is a simple task to create new titles for those doing the job.  It is not so simple to make a member happy doing the job.  Yes, in a volunteer organization, it is the highest priority for an orgnization to be able to motivate its membership to, not only do the job, but to keep doing it well. 
I would expect to see much more information from NHQ coming shortly, and like with CPP, I would expect the remarks hearin would be taken into account.  I for one, am eager to see the "rest of the story"...

[AirAux]

One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually. 

[ZigZag911]

Chiefs of Staff in CAP, per CAPR 20-1, hold command status and authority.

[Panache]

I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

^ This.

The "commissioned" officer grades should be reserved for those actively holding command positions.

I think your interpretation of those who should hold those grades is too restrictive.  Technically, Command Positions are those holding the Title of Commander or Deputy/Vice Commander.  This would not include positions like the Wing Chief of Staff, or the Directors on the wing staff.  These positions can wield a lot of authority and responsibility that are totally deserving of the grade that reflects that position.  But, Of course, that's only when grade indicates what it implies, which we don't have under our current Professional Development system.

You are entirely correct, sir.  I should have said "command position and staff positions for Group and higher."

[Panache]

One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

[Майор Хаткевич]

One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

Almost all of corporate America trains new hires in "the right [their] way" of doing X. What you learn in college is nice, it gets you in the door, but the real training takes place literally on the job.

College to: think more critically or to prove that you can commit to a long term plan, whatever. I can say that some classes really changed my mindset or how I viewed things. Most...well...I'm glad I'm done.

[Eclipse]

One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

I'm going to have to "think intellectually" about which is funnier, the idea or the phrase.

[68w20]

I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

So the purpose of education is to pick up concrete, specialized skill sets?  Why then did you take art, history, and literature in high school?  What specialized skill sets did those classes give you?

Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

It's just as presumptuous to assume that people don't work hard to earn LA degrees, and that all we (yupp, I'm one of those underwater basket weavers) do is "memorize dogma."

[Storm Chaser]

One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

I'm going to have to "think intellectually" about which is funnier, the idea or the phrase.

I wonder if those making more money than you are also laughing. 

[Storm Chaser]

One of the main reasons college graduates are paid more than high school graduates is that college is presumed to increase one's ability to think intellectually.

I've always presumed that the reason (some) college graduates got paid more than high school graduates is because they studied long and hard to acquire specialized skill-sets used in certain careers (finance, nursing, engineering, etc.).  But not all degree programs are equal, and not all degree programs "increase one's ability to think intellectually."

Just to be clear: I am not trying to trivialize college education or say "all college degrees are just worthless pieces of paper".  They're not.  But to automatically assume that somebody who spent four years memorizing dogma to "earn" their Liberal Arts degree is somehow inherently superior in critical thinking is presumptuous, to say the least.

Almost all of corporate America trains new hires in "the right [their] way" of doing X. What you learn in college is nice, it gets you in the door, but the real training takes place literally on the job.

College to: think more critically or to prove that you can commit to a long term plan, whatever. I can say that some classes really changed my mindset or how I viewed things. Most...well...I'm glad I'm done.

A friend, who taught in college several years ago, was telling me that one of his greatest challenges was trying to teach freshmen students how to think critically, how to really study and how to write effectively. Apparently, and for whatever reasons, those skills are not being learned in high school.