NCO Program Launched

[SARDOC]

all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.

To be a warrant officer, don't you need a two-year degree?

No, You are a technical expert in some field.  If you wanted to be a helicopter pilot you could join the Army, go to basic training, followed by Warrant Officer Candidate School, and Warrant Officer Flight Training.  No College required. Just a High school diploma.

[NCRblues]

to vs. too and due vs. do

Where did you get your grad degree from??

I am typing responses on my cell at work, and thanks to the wonderful autocorrect, it changes things automagically.

My apologies that to and too confused your brain cells. I know it is hard to go through the day and have little or no control, they have meetings for that, care to come with me?

I also enjoy the insinuation that people with a graduate degree can not make simple grammatical errors. I'm quite sure cap shut down because I posted to in the place of too...

[sarmed1]

I am not feeling the warrant/flight officer ranks as an option:  If the theory is USAF driven/approved to shape CAP similar to the USAF rank structure, putting most members at a rank that the USAF doesn't have anymore is not in line with that.

mk

[Майор Хаткевич]

But the AF DOES have them. They just stopped appointing people into those ranks. Sounds like maybe they should for the drone pilots...might increase their candidate pool.

[SARDOC]

I am not feeling the warrant/flight officer ranks as an option:  If the theory is USAF driven/approved to shape CAP similar to the USAF rank structure, putting most members at a rank that the USAF doesn't have anymore is not in line with that.

mk

While I agree that having warrant officers is not in keeping with the Air Force vision for the Air Force. The Air Force has deemed the Civil Air Patrol structure that Flight Officers are okay and that's why we still them for senior members under 21. 

I think that as a Civilian Auxiliary of the Air Force that we don't really need the grade.  However that goes against the grain of our tradition since our inception so I accept it.

I think that since it is our tradition that we do have grade as an incentive for various reasons that we could expand using an NCO, Flight officer or Warrant officer program and use rank in the manner which is typically implies meaning Authority or responsibility.

[Eclipse]

TSgts and WO's would be wholly appropriate for our specialists who do not want supervisory authority like Aircrew and ES operators.  "Specialists" as NIN alluded
would as well.

But the majority of the memberships is at least double-billeted, if not moreso, which means that model is basically broken ni a month when everyone takes the
time to do all the paperwork.

We simply do not have the manpower (by 2/3rds or more) to allow for a vertical grade structure which is tied to authority, and that doesn't even include the
"up or out" conversation.

[TexasCadet]

TSgts and WO's would be wholly appropriate for our specialists who do not want supervisory authority like Aircrew and ES operators.  "Specialists" as NIN alluded
would as well.

Support Positions: Specialist 4 - Specialist 7, 8, or 9; Warrant Officer 1 - Chief Warrant Officer 5
Command Positions: SSgt - CMSgt

[AirAux]

I hate to mention it, but Warrants are not commanded by NCO's..

[abdsp51]

But the AF DOES have them. They just stopped appointing people into those ranks. Sounds like maybe they should for the drone pilots...might increase their candidate pool.

No there are not any more warrant officers and haven't been for over 15 years AF wise they are a thing of the past.  Warrants were removed when the AF introduced SMSgt and CMSgt.

[Storm Chaser]

A possible advantage of having NCOs and/or WOs would be that if a senior member doesn't want to command or direct a staff function, he or she can opt for one of these grades and be an ES operator or specialist and/or a NCO staffer or assistant.

CAP officers can then focus on command and directing staff functions. This would take time and, as Eclipse has said before, would required more people. We're definitely not set up for that right now, but it's certainly possible to do it in the future.

As an example, we have 60 senior members in my squadron and 34 of them are assigned to duty positions. And while some of the other members are not quite active, we have many active members that just want to be ES operators (aircrew, ground team, etc.) or help out without being staff officers.

[FlyTiger77]

A possible advantage of having NCOs and/or WOs would be that if a senior member doesn't want to command or direct a staff function, he or she can opt for one of these grades and be an ES operator or specialist and/or a NCO staffer or assistant.

Exactly how is this different from what we have now? We have many members who opt to be an "ES operator or specialist" with absolutely no desire to command. Why do we need different insignia to denote that decision?

I could do my current CAP job just as easily as a 2d Lt as I can at my current rank. If I have to "pull rank" in a volunteer organization, I have already lost.

(Full disclosure: I have only read the previous 700+ responses on this thread sporadically, so my point has probably been made numerous times already.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No there are not any more warrant officers and haven't been for over 15 years AF wise they are a thing of the past.  Warrants were removed when the AF introduced SMSgt and CMSgt.

Further back than 15 years...and they are still authorised on paper.

Air Force

The United States Air Force no longer employs warrant officers.

The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the U.S. Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "supergrades" could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level, although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.

The last active duty Air Force warrant officer, CWO4 James H. Long, retired in 1980 and the last Air Force Reserve warrant officer, CWO4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Since then, the U.S. Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used. The W-5 grade was authorized by Congress for use by the Air Force along with the other armed forces, but was never used.


http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm

I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

[Storm Chaser]

A possible advantage of having NCOs and/or WOs would be that if a senior member doesn't want to command or direct a staff function, he or she can opt for one of these grades and be an ES operator or specialist and/or a NCO staffer or assistant.

Exactly how is this different from what we have now? We have many members who opt to be an "ES operator or specialist" with absolutely no desire to command. Why do we need different insignia to denote that decision?

I could do my current CAP job just as easily as a 2d Lt as I can at my current rank. If I have to "pull rank" in a volunteer organization, I have already lost.

(Full disclosure: I have only read the previous 700+ responses on this thread sporadically, so my point has probably been made numerous times already.)

The difference from what we have right now is that members that only want to be ES operators or specialists can't progress in the program, as most PD Levels and grades required command or staff experience. In addition, units get evaluated on how many members progress through the PD program. An alternate program could potentially alleviate that.

[abdsp51]

No there are not any more warrant officers and haven't been for over 15 years AF wise they are a thing of the past.  Warrants were removed when the AF introduced SMSgt and CMSgt.

Further back than 15 years...and they are still authorised on paper.

Air Force

The United States Air Force no longer employs warrant officers.

The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the U.S. Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "supergrades" could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level, although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.

The last active duty Air Force warrant officer, CWO4 James H. Long, retired in 1980 and the last Air Force Reserve warrant officer, CWO4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Since then, the U.S. Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used. The W-5 grade was authorized by Congress for use by the Air Force along with the other armed forces, but was never used.


http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm

I would gladly trade my Captain's bars for WO bars.

There have been no W/O in the AF since the 60's.  Irregardless of whether they are authorized or not there are none in the AF and haven't been in decades.

[Eclipse]

The difference from what we have right now is that members that only want to be ES operators or specialists can't progress in the program, as most PD Levels and grades required command or staff experience.

If they only want to be ES operators, they don't need to progress in the program, and frankly, if they don't want the responsibility, why should they get promoted.
Rarely in real life do you get promoted for just doing your job well - it requires additional responsibility and increased scope.

Just want to fly, hunt airplanes, launch rockets, or work radios without helping to keep the doors open?  Fair enough.  Thank you very much for your service.

In addition, units get evaluated on how many members progress through the PD program. An alternate program could potentially alleviate that.

Not in any way that makes a lick of difference to anyone.

[Storm Chaser]

The difference from what we have right now is that members that only want to be ES operators or specialists can't progress in the program, as most PD Levels and grades required command or staff experience.

If they only want to be ES operators, they don't need to progress in the program, and frankly, if they don't want the responsibility, why should they get promoted.
Rarely in real life do you get promoted for just doing your job well - it requires additional responsibility and increased scope.

Just want to fly, hunt airplanes, launch rockets, or work radios without helping to keep the doors open?  Fair enough.  Thank you very much for your service.

Most organizations in "real life" don't make all of their members "officers" either. Also, most organizations have workers that do get promoted and have opportunities for advancements. This applies to the military, other government agencies, private industry and non-profit organizations.

[Eclipse]

Most organizations in "real life" don't make all of their members "officers" either. Also, most organizations have workers that do get promoted and have opportunities for advancements. This applies to the military, other government agencies, private industry and non-profit organizations.

Right, but only if they are doing "more" or "extra".

If you get hired to "pick up a box and put it over there", and you do it well and are happy as-is, they will keep you forever and appreciate you.

You don't get more money or a title until you accept responsibility for other box movers, or track the boxes, or go out and find more boxes.

[Storm Chaser]

Most organizations in "real life" don't make all of their members "officers" either. Also, most organizations have workers that do get promoted and have opportunities for advancements. This applies to the military, other government agencies, private industry and non-profit organizations.

Right, but only if they are doing "more" or "extra".

If you get hired to "pick up a box and put it over there", and you do it well and are happy as-is, they will keep you forever and appreciate you.

You don't get more money or a title until you accept responsibility for other box movers, or track the boxes, or go out and find more boxes.

And that's why the military has enlisted and officers. Many tech companies have pay levels for their workers (engineer 1, engineer 2, etc.) and separate tracks for managers. Government agencies have WG, GS and SES pay scales. They all have different responsibilities and opportunities for advancement. Should I go on?

[Eclipse]

No, because that cannot and will never exist in CAP, not as long as people can come and go as they choose, change jobs
with the weather, and we're under manned by 50%+.

We can call them whatever we want, stand in a circle and salute each other like the Loyal Order of Raccoons, but it's still going to
be the same 5 guys doing the same 15 jobs, unless we hack them off too much and then it'll be less.

As you say, the military and industry have different compensation levels for different skillsets and experience.  CAP doesn't.  It's the same zero for everyone.

They also have the casts system of the "doers" and the "pointers".  CAP Doesn't.

[Storm Chaser]

No, because that cannot and will never exist in CAP, not as long as people can come and go as they choose, change jobs
with the weather, and we're under manned by 50%+.

Maybe nothing will ever change; or maybe it will. The truth is that not even you can say that a change in grade structure, professional development and/or membership roles "cannot and will never exist in CAP". Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You're obviously against the proposed NCO changes and yet the National Commander and national CAP leadership decided to move forward with them. Change, for better or worse, is sometimes inevitable.