NCO Program Launched

[Panache]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles". 

For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

But, yeah, there are... other degrees that I do mean to trivialize.

That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.

Oh Lord.  I was kidding.  But here you go.  Took me two seconds on Google to find that.

[Storm Chaser]

Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

Look, I've agreed with you in many issues here in CAP Talk. I think you're smart and experienced and respect your opinions. But just because you believe something, it doesn't make it correct all the time. You need to learn to really listen to others and not automatically assume they're wrong just because you believe something else.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles". 

For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

But, yeah, there are... other degrees that I do mean to trivialize.

That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.

Oh Lord.  I was kidding.  But here you go.  Took me two seconds on Google to find that.

For application materials for the Master of Arts degree in Women's Studies, please click here. For application materials for the undergraduate minor in Women's Studies, please click here.

I know reading isn't a college-educated-only type of skill...

[Eclipse]

Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

Apparently the assumption is people join CAP to make friends. 

If the the hard light of day causes people not to "like" me, so be it, though you'll have to take a number, that's a pretty long queue.

[RogueLeader]

I'm concerned on how a unit below Wing is not allowed a CMSgt, but a Flight is able to be commanded by a SNCO when there are no Officers assigned.

[Eclipse]

I'm concerned on how a unit below Wing is not allowed a CMSgt, but a Flight is able to be commanded by a SNCO when there are no Officers assigned.

[Larry Mangum]

No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

Ok, but step back and realize a good majority of membership will not have the background that you do and that OBC (ECI-13) is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt.  There are high standards for the officer  corp and it is not as easy to advance as it often time is made out to be depending on what wing you are in.  By your logic OBC should be required for the NCO Corp since they will potentially make up a good chunk of the leadership roles within the organization.  Remember too that there are different styles of leadership and different types of leaders and none of it is as black and white as it is often made out to be.  Sometimes  the people in leadership within a unit are there because the stepped up to take the job when no one else would even though they may lack some skills or training. 

You know that leadership in and of itself is an art form and can't really be taught in any course.

Yes, Sir I understand that Air Patrol members come from all types of backgrounds and it's for that very reason that we have commonality in training. Since we are all from different backgrounds it's the training that makes us similar so we can operate as a team. You state "that OBC is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt" while CAPR 35-5 states that all that is needed for promotion to 1Lt is 12months time in grade and a Specialty track Tech Rating; one has to have the OBC to complete Level 2 training and promote to Captain. So a member does not need any Officer training until they go for Captain and have been an Officer for 3 are more years. Can you think of any other corporation that would place someone into a leadership/management position for three or more years without any management training? I can agree with you about leadership being an art form but even art can be taught.   In regards to the NCO Corps I am not sure what type of training they will be offered for a PME or CDC but CAP has stated that the NCO "corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs" and if this is the case I am sure they will be given supervisory and management training at least.  I am just very curious about how CAP plans to implement this new NCO program and can barely wait until they come out with the new regs.

Capt Lowery, last I checked in order to bring about change, one must be an active participant. What are you doing to bring about change for the betterment of your squadron and wing?  When you are ready to do so, stop by the squadron for a visit.

[Storm Chaser]

Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

That's not necessarily true because many here on this board respect you, but don't necessarily like you, or more specifically, your condescending attitude.

Apparently the assumption is people join CAP to make friends. 

If the the hard light of day causes people not to "like" me, so be it, though you'll have to take a number, that's a pretty long queue.

Actually, I'm one of the few on this board that does like you, although I think you could tone down the attitude from time to time. 

[a2capt]

..last I checked in order to bring about change, one must be an active participant. What are you doing to bring about change for the betterment of your squadron and wing?  When you are ready to do so, stop by the squadron for a visit.

Ouch.

OTOH, -lack of participation- can certainly be an indicator that change might be in order. Depending on the scenario, of course.

[68w20]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles". 

For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

But, yeah, there are... other degrees that I do mean to trivialize.

That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.

Oh Lord.  I was kidding.  But here you go.  Took me two seconds on Google to find that.

For application materials for the Master of Arts degree in Women's Studies, please click here. For application materials for the undergraduate minor in Women's Studies, please click here.

I know reading isn't a college-educated-only type of skill...

[Panache]

Capt Lowery, last I checked in order to bring about change, one must be an active participant. What are you doing to bring about change for the betterment of your squadron and wing?  When you are ready to do so, stop by the squadron for a visit.

That'll leave a mark in the morning.

[Panache]

I don't consider it a burn just because you all can't figure out how to use Google.

I guess they don't teach that in college.

[NCRblues]

NCRBlues,

It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.

[SAREXinNY]

NCRBlues,

It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.

to vs. too and due vs. do

Where did you get your grad degree from??

[68w20]

NCRBlues,

It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

As I look at both of my degrees hanging on the wall behind me (undergrad and grad degree) I strongly disagree with you.

Requiring a degree in CAP will be complicated... Very.

Let's go down the (very likely to happen) possibility road. Squadron middle of nowhere FarmVille has been run by local farmers and other upstanding members of the community. Suddenly, CAP requires you to have a degree to be an officer, and poof all the senior members are now SSGT or TSGT because obviously you can't have to many SNCO's at the unit level ( sarcasm if you couldn't tell). So, now what does the unit due? Close? Become a flight to the next "close" unit of 100 miles one way? Get a single person to join with a degree to be "commander forever" because no one else has the time or money to go to college and then serve at CAPs whim? Then what happens when the local judge/mayor/fire chief who was commander for 15 years kicks the bucket?

And here is a real question for you. Who at NHQ is going to handle all this new logistics and administration? We can't even get updated regulations, required inspections completed in person or a myriad of other things already because of a shortage of funds and workers at NHQ. Heck, the CP department alone consists of just 2 workers.

You so desperately want to be correct on this. You are speculating without even having served A DAY in CAP.

to vs. too and due vs. do

Where did you get your grad degree from??

Panache was right, I should have waited to use that one...

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't consider it a burn just because you all can't figure out how to use Google.

I guess they don't teach that in college.

They taught me to "not believe everything on the internet" and to "check my sources".

The issue isn't whether such degrees exist - they do. So do African Studies.

But in your rush to "prove a point" you seem to have missed "the point". Those are degrees to "enrich yourself" as stated earlier. No one expects to make any money (or at least I hope they don't) with a degree like that. And as stated somewhere much earlier...good luck getting a commission with one of those in the RM. So what makes you think, even if CAP DID require a degree, they wouldn't also outline what kind of degrees they are looking for?

Somehow, because you seem to have a need to prove a degree is worthless, you pull out a worthless degree out of the pile. Why not pull out Journalism? Or maybe pull out some media degree that will be obsolete in 10-20 years? Not all degrees are equal, but a VERY big amount of degrees are a certain step above GED/HS Diploma. I don't see many people asking why they can't be HSOs in CAP, even though they are volunteers, but aren't doctors or nurses. I don't see anyone ripping on THEIR degrees, because I suppose people without degrees have resigned themselves to respecting those people, who at times can save lives?

I got a worthless degree. A Finance degree. The work I do doesn't really cross much with it. But I learned A LOT about business taking all of those "other" business classes that aren't part of the core of my major. But then there might be someone else, who went into a direct finance field, and the degree helped them. Or there's my wife who got her job due to the school she went to and degree she earned, but only peripherally uses the degree at work. A Doctor who isn't a doctor could call his Medical degree useless as well. Doesn't make it so, in general.

[sarmed1]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

umm WOW!....  In theory its only a title change, the PD looks to me like its pretty much the same thing.  I am not sure how that suddenly devalued your work and effort?  Because you cant tell people you are a CAPT/MAJ/LTC in the USAF... auxillary?......

I dont know how long you have been a member of the organization, but this would not be the first seemingly ridiculous change/requirement to come up that has had people threatening to leave in such epic proportions as to lay waste to the membership levels

Berry Boards
Orange Hard hats and vests
fingerprints/background checks
CPPT
no push ups
Only vans

Im am sure there are more (many more) and yet CAP still exists.....

mk

[cap235629]

all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.

[TexasCadet]

all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.

To be a warrant officer, don't you need a two-year degree?

[cap235629]

all this bickering about degrees once again makes me think having CAP Warrant Officers and only assigning standard "Officer" ranks when holding a command position is the way to go.

Would solve SO many problems on SO many levels.

To be a warrant officer, don't you need a two-year degree?

No