NCO Program Launched

[Shuman 14]

NCRBlues,

It's not overly complicated, the new progression track will be NCO not Officer.

New volunteers won't expect to someday be LTCs, they will hope to be CMSgts.

And when they ask "Hey, Bill, why is Bob a LT?" The answer will be "Well Jim, Bob has a degree and chose to accept the extra responsibility of command, so he applied for a commission and was accepted."

So again I ask... are you (or anyone else) volunteering in CAP to make a difference and make America better, or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

If you want to make a difference, does it matter if it's in a blue or grey uniform or if it has chevrons or bars on it? If that's your choice, then it won't matter.

If its for the rank, then you are part of the problem that MG Carr is trying to fix with this re-vamp of the NCO Corps.

[Shuman 14]

Pure speculation on your part with no evidence to support it.  We are not the military and have no reason to be aligned with the military in regards to the requirements they do to promote. 

I hope you do not use this approach working for the VA police to conduct your duties.

True, but an educated guess, based on what I would do if I was in charge.

If you have no reason to align, then why do you wear a military style uniform and use military ranks? 

maybe you'd prefer to use pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers as rank insignia, then you'd clearly not be aligned with the military. 

[Eclipse]

True, but an educated guess,

That's actually pretty funny...

[Shuman 14]

Ahhh. My nightly ray of Sunshine.

Thank you Eclipse. 

[abdsp51]

Pure speculation on your part with no evidence to support it.  We are not the military and have no reason to be aligned with the military in regards to the requirements they do to promote. 

I hope you do not use this approach working for the VA police to conduct your duties.

True, but an educated guess, based on what I would do if I was in charge.

If you have no reason to align, then why do you wear a military style uniform and use military ranks? 

maybe you'd prefer to use pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers as rank insignia, then you'd clearly not be aligned with the military. 

But you are not in charge and this is not something that the Nat CC can do without the approval of the BoG. 

There is no reason to align as that is not in the constitution by laws or in the AFI's that govern CAP or in the CAPRs.   And hate to break it to you but your "educated" guess is pure speculation plain and simple.  There is not enough information on this to substantiate your guess.  Plain and simple there is hardly any real info on it at all that has been released.  And honestly if and if it was to go the way you speculate then there would be a mass exodus of members to include some very senior members at wing level and above.

Hate to say it but having a degree does not make you better than anyone else. And there are plenty of people with degrees who are unemployed right now.  I think you need to step back and let this go forth, and quit speculating as to the direction that it is going in.

[Panache]

People expect an officer to have a degree, to be able to think and process at that level of education. In years past that wasn't a big deal, now everyone and their cousin has a degree, so if you don't... you're way behind the power curve.

I'll pass that along to the 33 people in the department whom I manage.  I'm sure they'll find it funny.

For what it's worth, when I'm interviewing prospective employees for hiring or promotion, the first thing I look at is experience and acquired skill-set, as well as job performance.

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

That's the completely wrong attitude to have.  Your work isn't devalued in the least.

By telling me that I will no longer be allowed to advance forward in the program because I don't have a college degree?  Sounds a lot like I'm being disenfranchised to me.

So, are you in CAP to make a difference and make America better... or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

Thank you for telling me what I should or shouldn't find important.

Grade is a sign of advancement in the professional development program.  Part of the reason I'm in CAP is to improve myself.   If I'm being prevented from doing that, then a large part of my reason to be in CAP is gone as well.

[Mitchell 1969]

I found the memo that Sgt Todd signed in another thread of this forum.

She co-signed the memo. In other words, the memo was signed by another person. Amy Coulter [sic] in her role as National Commander of CAP.

So there is no way that any LTC could have written Sgt Todd to "mind her business" without hitting the National Commander as well...

Flyer

That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011. 

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.

The story (singular) that prompted issuance of the letter from the National CC and Command Chief was jet-fueled via posting the original USAF NCO complaint at "Air Force Times," followed by a lot of online traffic comments. Given the publicity, it was impossible to let it die away and I believe it proper to defuse the matter by issuing the letter. If an organization doesn't deliver it's desired message, then public opinion will create one on the organization's behalf and nobody needs that. So, message written, signed, delivered, done.

I have been a CAP officer for a long time, both as a Senior Member and as a cadet. Which means I have been saluted by members of the US Armed Forces, as well as by members of at least 5-6 Allied armed forces. In most cases, it was a matter of the "saluters" simply covering the bases, not quite sure of who/what I was. But, in more than a few, quite a lot, actually, the "saluters" knew full well who and/or what I was. While not obligated to do so, they chose to do so. I perceived that as a dual honor, both personal and to my organization.

Not once, since 1970, when I first pinned on an officerish looking insignia, have I even as much as thought of getting into my costume and "hanging out at the BX, trolling for salutes," as it is often described. And....i haven't known any CAP officers who have done that.

I have engaged in conversations with military people about this in social situations. Interestingly, their spouses seem to be more interested in the topic. And it usually runs something like this: "You know, we're not required to salute you." (One complaint that many CAP officers have is that USAF does very little to educate their members about the role, responsibilities and benefits of their Auxiliary. Yet, somehow, the "don't have to" thing seems to be clearly understood). My response to that is "You're right. You don't have to." It wasn't an issue for me at all. Nor for any CAP people I knew. And, we certainly weren't the ones bringing it up.

Here's where I think many, if not most, of the "trolling for salutes" accusations originate - in the mind of the beholder.

Try this - I'm on a USAF base for 10-14 days. Sort of like Reserve Component people on AT, it's my home for a while. Except, I took vacation to be there. And I'm paying to stay and eat there. Now, I need to stop by and get some shoe polish. Yeah, I brought my own, but a couple of cadets need some and they don't have a chance to get to the BX. As I approach the door, comes a USAF TSgt and Ssgt. They both salute, out of reflex, most likely. I return the salute and say good morning. It's done. Over. Nobody was harmed. No honor was tarnished.

Two of us go back later in the day, or the next day. We missed lunch at the dining facility. Figure we can pick up a hamburger at the BX and get a bottle of shampoo that my buddy forgot to bring. We run into the same SSgt as yesterday, this time with a MSgt. SSgt salutes, we both return it and keep going. MSgt didn't salute. And then proceeds to tell the SSgt "we don't have to..." etc. Again, no harm done anywhere.

But that SSgt hunts up the TSgt from the earlier episode and says "Hey, remember that officer we saw outside the BX, the one with the blue tapes/unusual wings (or whatever)? Turns out he was a CIVILIAN. We don't HAVE to salute them.... And the TSgt feels...I don't know. Punked?

Now, when TSgt tells the story, for story purposes, he can't be a chump. The story has to change just a wee bit. And I think that's how a lot of trolling stories get started.

I've noticed common denominators in a lot of salute trolling stories. Enough to cause me to say that there is either incredible coincidence at play, almost at a conspiracy level, or enough to convince me that the stories are apocryphal.

Many/most such stories include a CAP character who is either a captain or a major. Most of the stories involve a "stop."  In other words, not a passing-by comment, but a situation where the CAP officer stops and makes the military person stop. Then comes a "lecture."  And, the lecture is almost eerily similar in a huge number of stories. It usually starts out with....the CAP person pointing to his/her grade/rank insignia and saying..."See this oak leaf/these bars? They mean that I'm an officer. You have to salute me." Ultimately, the CAP person is painted as a pompous and obnoxious buffoon. Then the story gets told.

Sorry, I've been hearing that story since 1967. If there was a guy, or an underground movement, hanging out at BXs since then, stopping USAF sergeants, pointing at leaves and bars, demanding salutes, I have to believe that most are dead or retired by now.

In short - this is nowhere close to being a real problem. It's just a perennial boogeyman or Sasquatch story that won't go away, fueled by people who claim to have seen the boogeyman or Sasquatch.

[SarDragon]

Just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it among the 34 pages of this thread, but does anyone have a breakdown of how many current/former Military NCO's who are current CAP members, and what branches they served in?

I haven't seen anything, and it doesn't appear to be something easily done. There's nothing in eServices that indicates former mil service, and NHQ doesn't really have the time or staffing to pull it off the F12s.

[Panache]

In short - this is nowhere close to being a real problem. It's just a perennial boogeyman or Sasquatch story that won't go away, fueled by people who claim to have seen the boogeyman or Sasquatch.

The only time I've been saluted by USAF personnel as a CAP member was when I was a 18-year-old senior member wearing Flight Officer shoulder marks.  I was wearing grade insignia the Air Force doesn't even have but I got the salute.

I was slow in returning it because I wasn't expecting it.  And I told them so.  "Sorry gentlemen, I'm Civil Air Patrol so you caught me by surprise there."  They laughed and said they understood and went on their way.

When I was in the Army, I honestly saluted anybody that had shiny on their garrison cap (this was before the black berets for everybody).  I didn't even look at grade.

[Panache]

Now how does that effect CAP? Simple, CAP is a reflection on the USAF, so when the public at large looks at a CAP they think Air Force, and Ma Blue wants CAP standards to mirror their standards.

As the USAF will be holding CAP officers to the same standard, I wonder when they'll start paying them a wage.

[RiverAux]

I don't think speculation is at all out of order regarding the potential entry of NPS folks into CAP NCO ranks since the materials we have seen clearly indicate that it is a possibility.  That being the case and with no further information provided  you can't really blame folks for it.  However, starting to guess that it means that officers will have to have college degrees is a ridiculous stretch based on what we know now. 

[Storm Chaser]

That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011. 

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.

In my combined 26 years of CAP and USAF experience, assigned to 3 different CAP wings and 9 different military installations, I've never seen anyone displaying this kind of behavior. Has it ever happened? Probably. Does it happen enough to be a systemic problem in CAP? Absolutely not.

[Storm Chaser]

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Sliming?

I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles". 

[Eclipse]

^ Statements like that don't trivialize anything, unless you take them personally.

The only thing anyone should care about is what specific level of education is necessary to be successful in CAP, anything else is irrelevant.

[Storm Chaser]

^ That's funny coming from someone who's always criticizing those who do CAP PD courses (RSC, NSC, etc.) through alternate methods.

I'm not taking it personally; my degree is aeronautics. Is it relevant to CAP? Well, it depends. It may be somewhat relevant to aerospace education, but it's not necessarily relevant to my abilities or accomplishments as a CAP officer. That's why in general I don't support CAP requiring its members to have college degrees (they already do that for the National Commander and certain specialized positions).

But college education is not just about having "a piece of paper". I work with many smart and talented engineers that would disagree with that assertion made by many on this board. Criticizing other people's accomplishments just because you don't have them is not conducive to anything. It goes against our core value of "respect", which >IS< relevant to being a good and successful CAP officer.

[Panache]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles". 

For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

But, yeah, there are... other degrees that I do mean to trivialize.

[Storm Chaser]

But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

Agree.

[Eclipse]

^ That's funny coming from someone who's always criticizing those who do CAP PD courses (RSC, NSC, etc.) through alternate methods.

I'm not sure why that's funny - the optimum way to complete these is the in-face, residential courses.  Anything else just checks the box and provides
nothing in regards to the information needed in a CAP context, nor the networking than can be vital to CAP success.

But college education is not just about having "a piece of paper". I work with many smart and talented engineers that would disagree with that assertion made by many on this board. Criticizing other people's accomplishments just because you don't have them is not conducive to anything. It goes against our core value of "respect", which >IS< relevant to being a good and successful CAP officer.

Yes, "respect" - the go-to word when people hear things they don't like.

The only time the discussion regarding degrees comes up is when assertions are made that they have some sort of "force-power-weight" in a volunteer environment like CAP.
They really don't.  Being "educated" and "informed" is important, "degreed" is imply one path and must be viewed in context in order for its value to be judged outside the
personal accomplishment of the individual.

[NIN]

When I was in the Army, I honestly saluted anybody that had shiny on their garrison cap (this was before the black berets for everybody).  I didn't even look at grade.

I got treated like an officer on the Terrazzo at the Academy once while wearing my enlisted (SP4) Class A's.  I had to pull these 3-degrees aside and give them a block of instruction on Army enlisted grade.  They're all madly flipping thru their copies of Contrails going "OK, ok, so _thats_ a Spec 4.. whats a Spec 5?"

Wasn't trolling, they saw the shiny DUIs in the center of my epaulets and did the "when in doubt."

[68w20]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years. (emphasis mine)

While I believe the requirements to become a CAP officer should be more stringent, I agree that CAP shouldn't require its members to have bachelor's degrees. That said, your comments about the "piece of paper" trivializes all those who have study hard to become engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't spent four years studying "Womyn's [sic] Struggles". 

For those who choose to be engineers, scientists, nurses, accountants, teachers, etc., I do not mean to trivialize it.  Those careers require study and schooling, and a college degree (and more) is entirely appropriate.  My wife, for example, is a RN and she worked hard for her degree.  But unless you're lending those particular skills to CAP, requiring a bachelor degree is simply an artificial, unnecessary barrier.

But, yeah, there are... other degrees that I do mean to trivialize.

That's not a degree program, it's a minor.  The purpose isn't to give you relevant skills, it's supposed to be something that you study because it interests you and will enrich you as a person.  Just because you're not interested in the topic doesn't make it irrelevant.