NCO Program Launched

[Al Sayre]

Just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it among the 34 pages of this thread, but does anyone have a breakdown of how many current/former Military NCO's who are current CAP members, and what branches they served in?

[Shuman 14]

I found the memo that Sgt Todd signed in another thread of this forum.

She co-signed the memo. In other words, the memo was signed by another person. Amy Coulter [sic] in her role as National Commander of CAP.

So there is no way that any LTC could have written Sgt Todd to "mind her business" without hitting the National Commander as well...

Flyer

That alone might explain why this change is coming. If the USAF transitions the majority of CAP to NCO ranks, they no longer has to worry about CAP officers out trolling for salutes.

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011. 

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Hopefully this NCO program will reinforce training standards at the entry level and will curb these problems in the future.

[winterg]

As I understand it, correct me if I read it wrong, the new CAP NCO program is only open to those members who have held the rank of E-5 or above in the military.  I guess it is experienced NCOs they want?  So, with a money order and a heartbeat you can be an officer, but to wear stripes you must have served in the military and earned your stripes.  Is it me or does this seem like a greater value is placed on one over the other?

This statement in the Nov. 8th press release makes me think it might be open for non military NCOs at a later date maybe?  "For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the military grades of E-5 through E-9 – staff sergeant, technical sergeant, master sergeant, senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant – in the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard."  (Emphasis mine)

[Shuman 14]

Just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it among the 34 pages of this thread, but does anyone have a breakdown of how many current/former Military NCO's who are current CAP members, and what branches they served in?

I think somewhere back in the teens or early twenties someone posted the number 80 active CAP NCOs, they didn't give a breakdown of ranks or which Branch of Service they came from.

[Panache]

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

That doesn't prove anything.  To this day it's still "common knowledge" that they put saltpeter into the food of enlisted trainees to curb their libido, or that it takes seven years for chewing gum to work its way through a person's digestive track.

Hell, polls taken in various locations have shown that between 6% and 20% of Americans surveyed believe that the manned moon landings were faked.

[Eclipse]

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.

They believed a troll post on a military forum.

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Has it ever happened? Yes.  Is it chronic, or even worthy of a mention at the national level?

No, absolutely not.  And when it has, it was a people problem, not a CAP problem, in the same way that
the anecdotal stories about misconduct in the various flavors of the Military Times publications are not
indicative of the services as a whole.
 

[Shuman 14]

As I understand it, correct me if I read it wrong, the new CAP NCO program is only open to those members who have held the rank of E-5 or above in the military.  I guess it is experienced NCOs they want?  So, with a money order and a heartbeat you can be an officer, but to wear stripes you must have served in the military and earned your stripes.  Is it me or does this seem like a greater value is placed on one over the other?

This statement in the Nov. 8th press release makes me think it might be open for non military NCOs at a later date maybe?  "For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the military grades of E-5 through E-9 – staff sergeant, technical sergeant, master sergeant, senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant – in the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard."  (Emphasis mine)

Got to have the seasoned NCOs first to train the new NCO Corps. The babystep first change is the ability to promote within the CAP NCO ranks. Before you came in as an E-5 you stayed an E-5 for life or you transitioned to the Officer Corps.

Second babystep, in my opinion, will be to allow prior Service E-4 and below to choose the NCO progression path, then the third step will be to allow CAP cadets, who become Senior Members, to choose the NCO route, and the final step will be moving all new Senior Members into the NCO track.

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

[Shuman 14]

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.

They believed a troll post on a military forum.

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Has it ever happened? Yes.  Is it chronic, or even worthy of a mention at the national level?

No, absolutely not.  And when it has, it was a people problem, not a CAP problem, in the same way that
the anecdotal stories about misconduct in the various flavors of the Military Times publications are not
indicative of the services as a whole.

In your opinion. An official memo issued by the General Officer Commanding and the Command CMSgt says something entirely different. 

[Panache]

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Sliming?

[abdsp51]

Got to have the seasoned NCOs first to train the new NCO Corps. The babystep first change is the ability to promote within the CAP NCO ranks. Before you came in as an E-5 you stayed an E-5 for life or you transitioned to the Officer Corps.

Second babystep, in my opinion, will be to allow prior Service E-4 and below to choose the NCO progression path, then the third step will be to allow CAP cadets, who become Senior Members, to choose the NCO route, and the final step will be moving all new Senior Members into the NCO track.

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Pure speculation.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And please don't tell me it's a wives tale because clearly in happened/happens often enough that a CAP Two-Star and the Command CMSgt of CAP had to issue a memo as recently as 2011.

They believed a troll post on a military forum.

I've been hearing stories about this kind of conduct (or misconduct) by CAP officer since the late 80s-early 90s, which leads me to believe it been going on for a long time and continues today.

Has it ever happened? Yes.  Is it chronic, or even worthy of a mention at the national level?

No, absolutely not.  And when it has, it was a people problem, not a CAP problem, in the same way that
the anecdotal stories about misconduct in the various flavors of the Military Times publications are not
indicative of the services as a whole.

In your opinion. An official memo issued by the General Officer Commanding and the Command CMSgt says something entirely different. 

IIRC, the memo was about ONE case in AZ, and had nothing to do with saluting. The goober should have been dealt with locally, and that's that. Anyone else feel Shumans true troll is turning on afterburners?

[Shuman 14]

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Sliming?

I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

All new Senior Members without degrees will be tracked into the NCO professional development lane. Over time this will reduce the number of officers  by regular retirements and resignations and lest new officers to replace them; in effect sliming the Officer Corps.

[a2capt]

Anyone else feel Shumans true troll is turning on afterburners?

Or at least running up the post count for fun?
It's quite easy to post one message with all your replies.

[Shuman 14]

Got to have the seasoned NCOs first to train the new NCO Corps. The babystep first change is the ability to promote within the CAP NCO ranks. Before you came in as an E-5 you stayed an E-5 for life or you transitioned to the Officer Corps.

Second babystep, in my opinion, will be to allow prior Service E-4 and below to choose the NCO progression path, then the third step will be to allow CAP cadets, who become Senior Members, to choose the NCO route, and the final step will be moving all new Senior Members into the NCO track.

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Pure speculation.

No worse and no better than any other speculation on CAPTalk. 

But you have to admit, if the ultimate goal of National and the USAF is to reduce the number of officers in CAP, my speculation make a lot of sense. 

[abdsp51]

No worse and no better than any other speculation on CAPTalk. 

But you have to admit, if the ultimate goal of National and the USAF is to reduce the number of officers in CAP, my speculation make a lot of sense. 

And how do you figure that this is the ultimate goal? This org has been running well outside of a few things without requiring volunteers to have a degree.

[Panache]

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Sliming?

I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

[Shuman 14]

No worse and no better than any other speculation on CAPTalk. 

But you have to admit, if the ultimate goal of National and the USAF is to reduce the number of officers in CAP, my speculation make a lot of sense. 

And how do you figure that this is the ultimate goal? This org has been running well outside of a few things without requiring volunteers to have a degree.

Basic alignment with the Military.

Look it's a simple fact of life in America today that the BS/BA degree is the high school diploma of 30 years ago. Do cops, firemen, secretaries need a degree to do their jobs? No... but with the unemployment rates being what they are everyone is requiring a degree to even get an interview, they want the highest qualified candidates they can find and with the huge available labor pool, employers can be picky and highly selective.

Now how does that effect CAP? Simple, CAP is a reflection on the USAF, so when the public at large looks at a CAP they think Air Force, and Ma Blue wants CAP standards to mirror their standards.

So when a CAP Captain walks into an EOC they want a physically fit, educated, and competent officer that reflects on them well.

Primary reason for requiring a certain height/weight standard to wear the USAF uniform, so at least you "appear" to meet that physically fit standard. 

You'll soon see that "educated" standard also put into place.

People expect an officer to have a degree, to be able to think and process at that level of education. In years past that wasn't a big deal, now everyone and their cousin has a degree, so if you don't... you're way behind the power curve.

Requiring a degree for CAP officers, at least for promotion to CPT or higher, is just a sign of the times and is in alignment with what the Military requires today.

I suspect that won't be the only change, I suspect the degree requirement is just one of them.

[Shuman 14]

And that would be the day when myself and CAP parts ways.  I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that tells me that all the hard work and time I've put into it is devalued because I don't have a piece of paper saying I studied Womyn's Struggles for four years.

That's the completely wrong attitude to have.  Your work isn't devalued in the least. For all intents and purposes its more like a uniform change.

As many have pointed out here, CAP rank is meaningless, you have LTs commanding CPTs and MAJs and LTCs that make coffee.

The work itself will not change, just one form of recognition (rank) will be changed.

Also, when you say "If I can't wear X" or "If I can't do Y" "then I'm not coming!" Then you really need to ask yourself what are your reasons for volunteering in the first place?

So, are you in CAP to make a difference and make America better... or are you in CAP to wear a rank?

[NCRblues]

It will be at that step that the new Officer requirements will be reveiled and the sliming of the Officer Corps will begin. The writing is on the wall for those who choose to see it.

Sliming?

I suspect that the USAF will require that all future Officer promotions will require a Bachelor degree. All current Officers will be grandfathered at their current rank BUT will not be allowed to promote until the degree requirement is met.

All new Senior Members without degrees will be tracked into the NCO professional development lane. Over time this will reduce the number of officers  by regular retirements and resignations and lest new officers to replace them; in effect sliming the Officer Corps.

Outside speculation by someone who has no real concept of how CAP operates at all.

Your "idea" would kill the organization, plain and simple.

It is simply not possible for CAP to even handle a requirement like that, nor is it even beneficial for this organization.

CAP operates very by and large on the nicety of the volunteers. Hand a mid-career CAP officer a "do not pass go do not collect next promotion" card, and he will turn right around and hand you his membership card and a "good luck with all that crazy &$@$".

Just a quick (from memory) survey of my current wings leadership is, the CC the CV and the COS are all retired people clocking 40 plus hours a week into a wing in CAP. None of them have a 4 year degree. So, you just stripped 75 combined years worth of CAP experience from CAP because they didn't go to a university and instead became firefighter(CC), police officer (CV), and business owner (COS) instead. Ya, those professions are not fit to lead without that sheet of paper from middle of nowhere university in backhanded basket weaving with a minor in front handed bucket making... 

Make it overly complicated to volunteer and you will lose people. Place a crazy requirement like a 4 year degree for work that does not even provide a pay check and you can kiss it goodbye.

 

[abdsp51]

Basic alignment with the Military.

Look it's a simple fact of life in America today that the BS/BA degree is the high school diploma of 30 years ago. Do cops, firemen, secretaries need a degree to do their jobs? No... but with the unemployment rates being what they are everyone is requiring a degree to even get an interview, they want the highest qualified candidates they can find and with the huge available labor pool, employers can be picky and highly selective.

Now how does that effect CAP? Simple, CAP is a reflection on the USAF, so when the public at large looks at a CAP they think Air Force, and Ma Blue wants CAP standards to mirror their standards.

So when a CAP Captain walks into an EOC they want a physically fit, educated, and competent officer that reflects on them well.

Primary reason for requiring a certain height/weight standard to wear the USAF uniform, so at least you "appear" to meet that physically fit standard. 

You'll soon see that "educated" standard also put into place.

People expect an officer to have a degree, to be able to think and process at that level of education. In years past that wasn't a big deal, now everyone and their cousin has a degree, so if you don't... you're way behind the power curve.

Requiring a degree for CAP officers, at least for promotion to CPT or higher, is just a sign of the times and is in alignment with what the Military requires today.

I suspect that won't be the only change, I suspect the degree requirement is just one of them.

Pure speculation on your part with no evidence to support it.  We are not the military and have no reason to be aligned with the military in regards to the requirements they do to promote. 

I hope you do not use this approach working for the VA police to conduct your duties.