NCO Program Launched

[Eclipse]

A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

[Storm Chaser]

I can't speak for the Army, but in the Air Force there are several layers of NCOs (supervisor, section chief, flight chief, superintendent, etc.) who are in the chain of command. That doesn't preclude an Airman to go talk to the First Sergeant about a problem, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent the chain of command.

It's not a circumvent, it's a system that works hand in hand.

Think of it of a child with a mom and dad, the child may have a question to ask mom but is afraid to ask it, the child can go to dad and get advice before approaching mom.

As long as mom and dad are on the same sheet of music, it's a system that works well.

But why would such a system be needed in CAP? There's no enlisted membership. The proposed program only envisions NCOs and even then, there's no guarantee that there would be a massive influx of new NCO members.

[Storm Chaser]

But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

I'm not sure if you're aware of the differences between an Army and an Air Force First Sergeant. As I understand it, the Army 1SG is a rank (E-8), whereas the Air Force 1st Sgt is a position (usually E-7, although it can be E-8 or even E-9 in larger units or higher headquarters). The Army 1SG (E-8) reports to the company commander, usually a CPT (O-3). The Air Force 1st Sgt, who usually holds the rank go MSgt (E-7), reports to the squadron commander, usually a Lt Col (O-5) in larger units or a Maj (O-4) in smaller ones. Unlike in the Army company, where the 1SG is the ranking NCO, in the Air Force squadron there are several NCOs (SMSgt, CMSgt) that actually outrank the 1st Sgt and many more that rank equally (other MSgts). The dynamic, as you can see, is quite different in the Air Force than in the Army.

Now, when adding CAP to the mix, I suspect the dynamic would be even more of a contrast as you would have units with cadets, officers and very few (if any) NCOs. I think the role of a CAP 1st Sgt would have to be quite different from that of the Army and Air Force. And to be honest, I'm still not sure it's needed.

[PHall]

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

There's no seperate NCO chain of command in the  Army (or any service for that matter) either, but there is a support chain.

Now if you feel that extra layer of support is not needed, then I'll bow to your subject matter knowledge.

I just know when I was a young Private, we could always go to our Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant before bothering the actual chain of command.

Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

Yeah, that's they "Army" way. Doesn't really work that way in the Air Force. No such thing as a NCO Support Channel in the Air Force.
It's just the nature of the beast.

[Panache]

Airman after completing Level One
Airman First Class after four months TIG
Senior Airman After Four Months TIG

Don't see the need for two promotions within 8 months.

And, if you bust your hump after joining and get your Technician rating, you could conceivably be a SSgt in six months.

[Shuman 14]

You know Eclipse i really don't know your history in or out of CAP, but for someone that appears to have BTDT in CAP you surely seems to trash talk your organization... a lot.

Stating facts and presenting informed opinion, hard to accept or otherwise, is not "trash talking", it's how positive, change begins.

But you never say anything positive. 

[Eclipse]

But you never say anything positive.

Really?  Hm.

[Shuman 14]

Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

Most units have no need for a 1st Sgt and this program is not well thought out.  Again we are dealing with minors here and in no way is it smart for the commander to be left out even for minutes depending on the circumstances.  I would recommend you read CAPR52-16 and CPPT a huge aspect of the mission is cadet programs and with the thought process you have outlined is bad for business.
[/quote]

Well it sounds like a recipe for commander burnout and data overload to me. I'm just saying.

[Shuman 14]

A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

And what's wrong with that, it's called delegation of authority.

[Eclipse]

A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

And what's wrong with that, it's called delegation of authority.

http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/

[Elihu.Lowery]

No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

Ok, but step back and realize a good majority of membership will not have the background that you do and that OBC (ECI-13) is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt.  There are high standards for the officer  corp and it is not as easy to advance as it often time is made out to be depending on what wing you are in.  By your logic OBC should be required for the NCO Corp since they will potentially make up a good chunk of the leadership roles within the organization.  Remember too that there are different styles of leadership and different types of leaders and none of it is as black and white as it is often made out to be.  Sometimes  the people in leadership within a unit are there because the stepped up to take the job when no one else would even though they may lack some skills or training. 

You know that leadership in and of itself is an art form and can't really be taught in any course.

Yes, Sir I understand that Air Patrol members come from all types of backgrounds and it's for that very reason that we have commonality in training. Since we are all from different backgrounds it's the training that makes us similar so we can operate as a team. You state "that OBC is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt" while CAPR 35-5 states that all that is needed for promotion to 1Lt is 12months time in grade and a Specialty track Tech Rating; one has to have the OBC to complete Level 2 training and promote to Captain. So a member does not need any Officer training until they go for Captain and have been an Officer for 3 are more years. Can you think of any other corporation that would place someone into a leadership/management position for three or more years without any management training? I can agree with you about leadership being an art form but even art can be taught.   In regards to the NCO Corps I am not sure what type of training they will be offered for a PME or CDC but CAP has stated that the NCO "corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs" and if this is the case I am sure they will be given supervisory and management training at least.  I am just very curious about how CAP plans to implement this new NCO program and can barely wait until they come out with the new regs.

[Shuman 14]

But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

I'm not sure if you're aware of the differences between an Army and an Air Force First Sergeant. As I understand it, the Army 1SG is a rank (E-8), whereas the Air Force 1st Sgt is a position (usually E-7, although it can be E-8 or even E-9 in larger units or higher headquarters). The Army 1SG (E-8) reports to the company commander, usually a CPT (O-3). The Air Force 1st Sgt, who usually holds the rank go MSgt (E-7), reports to the squadron commander, usually a Lt Col (O-5) in larger units or a Maj (O-4) in smaller ones. Unlike in the Army company, where the 1SG is the ranking NCO, in the Air Force squadron there are several NCOs (SMSgt, CMSgt) that actually outrank the 1st Sgt and many more that rank equally (other MSgts). The dynamic, as you can see, is quite different in the Air Force than in the Army.

Now, when adding CAP to the mix, I suspect the dynamic would be even more of a contrast as you would have units with cadets, officers and very few (if any) NCOs. I think the role of a CAP 1st Sgt would have to be quite different from that of the Army and Air Force. And to be honest, I'm still not sure it's needed.

The Platoon Sergeant, the First Sergeant and the Command Sergeant Major (insert Battalion, Regiment, Group, Brigade, Division, Corps, Echelon-above-God) all comprise the NCO Support chain in the Army and conduct the roles/missions that an USAF First Sergeant does. Depending on the unit type there will be numerous Sergeant First Classes, Master Sergeants and staff Sergeant Majors at those various levels that outrank this support chain NCO but are not in the chain of command either.

What you are describing is not unique to the Air Force, we have it in the Army too, just different titles.

[Shuman 14]

But you never say anything positive.

Really?  Hm.

Direct observation here, you're always a "Ray of Sunshine" in your posts.

[Shuman 14]

A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

And there you go - because a 1SG would feel empowered to "handle it".

And what's wrong with that, it's called delegation of authority.

http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/

Thanks, now I know where to find the CAP Manual Library... your point?

[Eclipse]

Thanks, now I know where to find the CAP Manual Library... your point?

Read them.

Spend a few years in a unit.

Then we can have a real discussion.

[Shuman 14]

Yeah, that's they "Army" way. Doesn't really work that way in the Air Force. No such thing as a NCO Support Channel in the Air Force.
It's just the nature of the beast.

I can see that in the Air Force where the ratio to Officer to Enlisted is much higher tha the Army.

But I've been on the Staffs of several high level commands (Division and an Army Staff) and I'm currently assigned to a simulation training Brigade where 95% of the unit is O-4 and above; but in all those cases we had an NCO Support Chain and a First Sergeant.

Again Army vs Air Force thinking, I guess.

[Shuman 14]

Thanks, now I know where to find the CAP Manual Library... your point?

Read them.

Spend a few years in a unit.

Then we can have a real discussion.

Naw, I think keep coming here and being a thorn in your side... it's more fun. 

[NCRblues]

Why are we suddenly arguing about first shirts?

The paper that was linked clearly stated that we don't get first shirts...

[Майор Хаткевич]

but the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

CAP cashed my check, there's skin in the game. 

Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

Thank you for your donation. Here is your PATRON membership card. Have a nice day!

[Shuman 14]

Why are we suddenly arguing about first shirts?

The paper that was linked clearly stated that we don't get first shirts...

That's what started it... I asked why no First Sergeants.