NCO Program Launched

[Elihu.Lowery]

I am excited to hear that they are restructuring the NCO program but I have to agree that CAP could use an entire enlisted force structure; every new Senior Member that joins is a 2LT in 6 months even if they know very little about CAP. If you're going to have a Professional NCO Corps that has to complete training that mirrors the Air Force then you will have to have an equally professional Officer Corps with a minimum training requirement that all members complete the CAP Basic Officer Training Course before they are appointed as Officers. Really it would not hurt to raise the bar just a little.

So you feel the bar is not high enough?

No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

[Shuman 14]

I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is? 

First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.

I don't think we need a CAP [Command] Chief Master Sergeant either, but we do.

Kinda my point, why have the top rung of the NCO Support Chain but none of the other links in place. 

[Eclipse]

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

The backbone of CAP is, always has been, and always will be, the volunteer membership.

Frankly it is somewhat insulting to the people who have held this organization together for the last 20 years or so with bubble gum and scotch
tape, but apparently, without the aid of a backbone.

[Shuman 14]

but the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

CAP cashed my check, there's skin in the game. 

Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

[Storm Chaser]

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

[Eclipse]

Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

Yes, it does.  If you understood CAP, you wouldn't ask it to start with.

[Shuman 14]

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

The backbone of CAP is, always has been, and always will be, the volunteer membership.

Frankly it is somewhat insulting to the people who have held this organization together for the last 20 years or so with bubble gum and scotch
tape, but apparently, without the aid of a backbone.

You know Eclipse i really don't know your history in or out of CAP, but for someone that appears to have BTDT in CAP you surely seems to trash talk your organization... a lot.

If CAP is so bad, or so broken, so insulting to it's members... why do you stick around? 

[abdsp51]

No sir, I do not feel that the standards for CAP officer is not quite high enough yet. I understand that CAP is a volunteer force and in fact I have been a member since July 1993. I joined as a Senior member when I was 18, after about two years I was a Technical Flight Officer with a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs and was appointed as Deputy Commander for Cadets; but regardless every new member was a 2Lt and as such was my superior. I could understand the cadets when they were amazed that these adults were their supervisors when they knew less about CAP then they did. In 2003 I joined the Air Force , served in Operations Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom and was honorably discharged (Dec, 01, 2012) as a Security Forces NCO. I returned to my beloved Air Patrol only to discover that as much as some things had changed (the ES training has evolved greatly) some things have not; such as CAP Officers being under trained and not prepared for the leadership positions in which they found themselves.  By the time I was a 1Lt I had already completed ECI-13 The CAP Officer Course at the time, ALS and CLC. But I was only a unit Deputy Commander; now 1Lt's are unit Commanders and many barely have a foundational understanding of what Civil Air Patrol is.  I am a strong supporter of higher standards for our Officer Corps and I do truly believe that CAP members should as a very minimum have to complete a Officer Course before being promoted to a Leadership position such as being an officer. If CAP is going to create a vibrant revitalized  NCO Corps then they need to strengthen the Officer Corps so that they will have the ability to lead and not just take up space.   

Ok, but step back and realize a good majority of membership will not have the background that you do and that OBC (ECI-13) is a requirement to promote to 1st Lt.  There are high standards for the officer  corp and it is not as easy to advance as it often time is made out to be depending on what wing you are in.  By your logic OBC should be required for the NCO Corp since they will potentially make up a good chunk of the leadership roles within the organization.  Remember too that there are different styles of leadership and different types of leaders and none of it is as black and white as it is often made out to be.  Sometimes  the people in leadership within a unit are there because the stepped up to take the job when no one else would even though they may lack some skills or training. 

You know that leadership in and of itself is an art form and can't really be taught in any course. 

[Shuman 14]

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

There's no seperate NCO chain of command in the  Army (or any service for that matter) either, but there is a support chain.

Now if you feel that extra layer of support is not needed, then I'll bow to your subject matter knowledge.

I just know when I was a young Private, we could always go to our Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant before bothering the actual chain of command.

Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

[Storm Chaser]

To say that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force is one thing, but to say that they're the backbone of CAP is another. NCOs are >NOT< the backbone of CAP. There's just not enough of them in the organization to really make a difference. I'm not trying to minimize the contribution of our current NCO members, but their contributions have nothing to do with the fact that they're wearing stripes instead of bars or oak leaves. In order for NCOs to become the backbone of CAP, most of our membership would have to be enlisted. Even if that was the plan, it would take years to implement and there's no guarantee of success.

[Shuman 14]

Regardless it doesn't invalidate my question.

Yes, it does.  If you understood CAP, you wouldn't ask it to start with.

I see, I don't know and I don't want to know. Thanks COL Jessup.

[abdsp51]

Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

Not necessarily something in our best interests given that we have minors in our care and that thought process would open up alot of liability concerns.

[Shuman 14]

To say that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force is one thing, but to say that they're the backbone of CAP is another. NCOs are >NOT< the backbone of CAP. There's just not enough of them in the organization to really make a difference. I'm not trying to minimize the contribution of our current NCO members, but their contributions have nothing to do with the fact that they're wearing stripes instead of bars or oak leaves. In order for NCOs to become the backbone of CAP, most of our membership would have to be enlisted. Even if that was the plan, it would take years to implement and there's no guarantee of success.

But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

[Storm Chaser]

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

There's no separate chain of command for NCOs in the Air Force. Why should there be one in CAP? There's only one chain of command. The SNCOs that advise commanders on enlisted matters (First Sergeants, Command Chief Master Sergeants) are >NOT< part of the chain of command. While First Sergeants, for example, are responsible for the morale, welfare, and conduct of all the enlisted members, they still have to go through the chain of command to address issues concerning these. In many cases, squadrons have CMSgts and SMSgts, who are in the CoC and outrank the 1st Sgt. Unless you had a significant enlisted force to warrant one, I'm not sure most CAP squadrons would need a First Sergeant.

There's no seperate NCO chain of command in the  Army (or any service for that matter) either, but there is a support chain.

Now if you feel that extra layer of support is not needed, then I'll bow to your subject matter knowledge.

I just know when I was a young Private, we could always go to our Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant before bothering the actual chain of command.

Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

I can't speak for the Army, but in the Air Force there are several layers of NCOs (supervisor, section chief, flight chief, superintendent, etc.) who are in the chain of command. That doesn't preclude an Airman to go talk to the First Sergeant about a problem, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent the chain of command.

[Shuman 14]

Being part of that chain of command as an officer, I always appreciated that both my Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant kept a lot of BS concerns off my desk and ensuring that matters that really needed to be brought to my attention got to me thru that support chain.

I can see how that adds value in any organization, to include CAP.

Not necessarily something in our best interests given that we have minors in our care and that thought process would open up alot of liability concerns.

Actually it would because the cadets would call First Sergeant before the call the commander with the silly ideas that all teenagers have. A good First Sergeant could save a commander MANY headaches.

[abdsp51]

But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around. 

[Shuman 14]

I can't speak for the Army, but in the Air Force there are several layers of NCOs (supervisor, section chief, flight chief, superintendent, etc.) who are in the chain of command. That doesn't preclude an Airman to go talk to the First Sergeant about a problem, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent the chain of command.

It's not a circumvent, it's a system that works hand in hand.

Think of it of a child with a mom and dad, the child may have a question to ask mom but is afraid to ask it, the child can go to dad and get advice before approaching mom.

As long as mom and dad are on the same sheet of music, it's a system that works well.

[Shuman 14]

But from what I'm reading and seeing, I think that's exactly what your current commander's plan is. I don't argue that it will take years and it may not work, but I think that's what they are going to try for.

Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.

[Eclipse]

You know Eclipse i really don't know your history in or out of CAP, but for someone that appears to have BTDT in CAP you surely seems to trash talk your organization... a lot.

Stating facts and presenting informed opinion, hard to accept or otherwise, is not "trash talking", it's how positive, change begins.

[abdsp51]

Not going to happen without buy in from the membership and something more solid to work with than a paper plan someone cooked up that ma blue liked. 

And no in our organization especially when dealing with kids keeping the commander out of the loop is bad for business all the way around.

How is the commander out of the loop? It's a bad First Sergeant that DOESN'T communicate everything to the commander. A good 1SG will handle the issue at the lowest level and then inform the commander how and why it happened so that he/she doesn't get blindsided later.
[/quote]

Most units have no need for a 1st Sgt and this program is not well thought out.  Again we are dealing with minors here and in no way is it smart for the commander to be left out even for minutes depending on the circumstances.  I would recommend you read CAPR52-16 and CPPT a huge aspect of the mission is cadet programs and with the thought process you have outlined is bad for business.