NCO Program Launched

[Mitchell 1969]

^That's how I remember the system to work so many years ago. There were no CAP NCO's over the age of 21 that I can remember back then.

I remember meeting several. One was a former UK ATC cadet, who simply liked being a MSgt. The others had their own reasons, I suppose.

[Storm Chaser]

During World War I and II (and I assume this was also the case in other conflicts), it not uncommon for someone in the Armed Forces to be promoted to a higher temporary grade, while assuming command or staff responsibilities equivalent to that grade. Once the tour or assignment was over, they reverted to their permanent grades unless given a new assignment at that level or a permanent promotion. There's no reason why we can't do something like that with CAP.

[Eclipse]

There's no reason why we can't do something like that with CAP.

Cost? (for starters).  Not the top factor but needs to be on the list.

In the military you're being compensated for your time and issued your uniform and insignia (or get an allowance).
The way people in CAP move around this could actually be a burden for some.

What about if you are posted at several echelons and the job has different grade for each job?

How about major activity commanders who are also active in their home squadrons?  Would it be appropriate to have a TSgt as an
encampment commander?  I would say "no" if we're going to start living in a world where grade means more then a check to Vanguard.

And while the situations where a field-grade officer reports to a company-grade officer might be unusual in the military (but not unheard of, especially in flying units), it's not only common, but the status quo in CAP, not to mention cross-posting and circular command chains.

And unless someone has about 7-10000 adults chomping for membership, saying multi-echelon posting is verboten will shut CAP down as soon as
it's enforced.

[Storm Chaser]

There's no reason why we can't do something like that with CAP.

Cost? (for starters).  Not the top factor but needs to be on the list.

In the military you're being compensated for your time and issued your uniform and insignia (or get an allowance).
The way people in CAP move around this could actually be a burden for some.

I agree that CAP uniforms and insignias can be expensive and the way we move around could exacerbate that cost to the member. That said, I don't think that moving from position to position in a short period of time is good for the organization (although I realize it may be necessary at times because we don't have enough people stepping up to fill every position). Either way, I don't think each move would necessitate a new grade, every time.

What about if you are posted at several echelons and the job has different grade for each job?

Regardless of how many duty positions you're assigned to, you would only be promoted to one grade at a time (it could be one for the higher position or for your primary duty assignment). We do that right now with positions such as wing commander. And their grade is initially temporary. We also do it in the military, where an officer is assigned to one primary position, but may have other additional duties, even at higher headquarters just like in CAP (think ADY).

How about major activity commanders who are also active in their home squadrons?  Would it be appropriate to have a TSgt as an
encampment commander?  I would say "no" if we're going to start living in a world where grade means more then a check to Vanguard.

While I don't necessarily disagree, I'm not sure I follow your point here.

And while the situations where a field-grade officer reports to a company-grade officer might be unusual in the military (but not unheard of, especially in flying units), it's not only common, but the status quo in CAP, not to mention cross-posting and circular command chains.

Actually, it's not common. The situation that I assume you're referring to is where the pilot in command (i.e. the aircraft commander) may be a Capt, whereas the navigator may be a Lt Col. In the aircraft, the PIC is in command, regardless of grade (no different from the ICS structure, where incident positions matter over grade or permanent duty positions). In the ground, however, the Capt wouldn't be the squadron commander of a flying unit, especially of one where there's a Lt Col assigned to that unit.

And unless someone has about 7-10000 adults chomping for membership, saying multi-echelon posting is verboten will shut CAP down as soon as it's enforced.

That should not be an issue, at all. I don't see a problem with members serving in multiple positions or at different echelons.

Look, my idea may not be ideal, but the current situation isn't ideal either. The bottom line is, we've been doing business the same way for decades and the current situation is not much different than it was before. I know you keep saying we "need more people" and I agree, but we also need a better program for those new people. Otherwise, we'll continue with the status quo that we have right now, which hasn't proven to be effective.

[abdsp51]

And doing temp grades based upon position will?  Yes we do it for Wing CC and up but to me that seems more of an administrative PIA than anything else and increases the workload on a burdened system already.

Honestly the system works, and there are enough kinks in it to cause it to get backlogged and grind slow let's not burden it with more red-tape and admin processes. 

Could we benefit from an NCO program maybe, but this is still to fledgling for anyone to say if it will work or not, and way to many bugs in it and not enough info.  Can we have a NCO side and an Officer side I don't see why not we have infrastructure in place we just need to implement the NCO side of things into it. 

We don't need to change the system of awarding grade, and instituting warrants or throwing additional requirements on membership in order to progress.  We need to work the kinks out of the system first and foremost, adjust as needed and carry on.

[SARDOC]

I don't understand the reasoning that the CAP "Enlisted" Structure starts at the NCO level.  If your going to bring back the NCO's why not just include the Non NCO grades?

Make it so that the Basic Entry is

SM
Airman after completing Level One
Airman First Class after four months TIG
Senior Airman After Four Months TIG
Staff Sergeant after Completion of any Technician Rating
Technical Sergeant after 1 year TIG or qualified as MO, MP, GTL, CUL, LO, FASC, FLS, LSC, MSO *
Master Sergeant after 1 year TIG and Level 2
Senior Master Sergeant after 2 year TIG and Level 3
Chief Master Sergeant after 2 year TIG and Wing Level Approval.

All Officer Related Grades after Completion of a CAP Leadership program (Read:Officer Candidate Program including OBC) Must be at least a SSGT in good standing and recommended by any CAP officer to be eligible to attend.

There should be no artificial cap on the number authorized or level served. These Positions are not subject to any Monetary Incentive so we shouldn't implement fake limits.  Those are not expectations we have on the Officer Corps.  The Grade structure should reflect the members progress and commitment to our organization.

Those who choose to be Officers and those that choose to stay "enlisted" should have options.   The Idea is that we have those who wish to serve even if in a limited capacity should still have a way to be recognized instead of being a First Lieutenant or a Captain forever.

Just a thought.

[RiverAux]

Airman after completing Level One
Airman First Class after four months TIG
Senior Airman After Four Months TIG

Don't see the need for two promotions within 8 months. 

[a2capt]

Even simpler. Just skip all that madness.
We have a command and grade structure that works for our organization now.

We are "CAP Officers", not Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard, NOAA, whatever. But Civil Air Patrol.

Our organization functions differently, as do many others individually.

Our Grade structure is more of an extension to what we've done within the organization. Rank and Grade are not the same thing.

Those chevrons would have looked a little nicer if the blue field at the top formed the diamond shape even with the over-stripes missing.

[Eclipse]

I don't understand the reasoning that the CAP "Enlisted" Structure starts at the NCO level.  If your going to bring back the NCO's why not just include the Non NCO grades?

Yep - NCOs are supposed to be small-squad cat herders of the enlisted - the lowest rung grunts who need the most supervision, training, mentoring and "care and feeding".

Where are those?

[SARDOC]

Airman after completing Level One
Airman First Class after four months TIG
Senior Airman After Four Months TIG

Don't see the need for two promotions within 8 months.

I know, I was thinking that a big part of Senior Members doing the one and done type memberships, This could let them feel a little appreciated and invested into the program.  The concept is this might help with recruiting an retention and keep them involved all while completing part of our mission.

If they see that advancement is feasible when actually participating in the program.

There are Graduates of the Military basic training that Graduate with E2 or E3 and then E4 and sometimes even E5 after the completion of their MOS school.  I don't think that a rapid sequence of promotions is completely out of order for someone who is an active participant.

[SARDOC]

I don't understand the reasoning that the CAP "Enlisted" Structure starts at the NCO level.  If your going to bring back the NCO's why not just include the Non NCO grades?

Yep - NCOs are supposed to be small-squad cat herders of the enlisted - the lowest rung grunts who need the most supervision, training, mentoring and "care and feeding".

Where are those?

The NCO's in the program (ie. Those who have completed a Technician Rating) would be the mentors for cadets especially when doing an SDA as well as new senior members in the process of completing a Technician Rating.

[Eclipse]

The NCO's in the program (ie. Those who have completed a Technician Rating) would be the mentors for cadets especially when doing an SDA as well as new senior members in the process of completing a Technician Rating.

Too bad they can't do that now, that would be great.

Oh, wait...

[Eclipse]

http://capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657



"Civil Air Patrol's noncommissioned officer corps is poised to become a larger and far more significant and dynamic facet of the all-volunteer organization's operations and missions.

Under a plan recently approved and signed by Air Force Manpower and Reserve Affairs Assistant Secretary Daniel Ginsberg, CAP's NCO program is being restructured to align with the U.S. Air Force's structure for NCOs.

Maj. Gen. Chuck Carr, CAP's national commander, himself a retired Air Force master sergeant, said he looks forward to the NCOs' expanded role in bolstering the organization's capabilities and mission readiness.

"NCOs are the backbone of the military services," Carr said. "They will fulfill just as valuable a role throughout CAP."

For CAP Chief Master Sgt. Lou E. Todd, the change is more than welcome, and she looks forward to seeing the new set-up implemented as soon as the corresponding regulations are updated.

Until now, only former active-duty NCOs were allowed to join CAP's NCO corps, and then only at the ranks they held in the military. No upgrade training was available for promotion within the NCO ranks.

Under the restructured program, though, that will change. The newly approved corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure, with an established process to promote and develop NCOs.

"We're expanding it," Todd said. "We're making it a lot better."

In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.

For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the military grades of E-5 through E-9 – staff sergeant, technical sergeant, master sergeant, senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant – in the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard.

Along with making the organization more appealing to past and present military NCOs, the restructured program is also designed to provide CAP commanders at all levels with greater access to the professional military skills, training and experience that the NCOs can readily provide. CAP members without military backgrounds are also expected to benefit from their NCO colleagues' expertise in military organization, leadership and management.

In addition, Todd said, the option of moving up into the NCO corps and then progressing from rank to rank within it should give interested CAP cadets something new to aim for as well.

"We have high expectations for the program," she said. "We're excited to get going with it."

[SARDOC]

^^^ I'm Guessing the Powerpoint are the rank style they have decided on because the second picture has CMSgt Todd sporting the new stripes.

[Elihu.Lowery]

I am excited to hear that they are restructuring the NCO program but I have to agree that CAP could use an entire enlisted force structure; every new Senior Member that joins is a 2LT in 6 months even if they know very little about CAP. If you're going to have a Professional NCO Corps that has to complete training that mirrors the Air Force then you will have to have an equally professional Officer Corps with a minimum training requirement that all members complete the CAP Basic Officer Training Course before they are appointed as Officers. Really it would not hurt to raise the bar just a little.

[abdsp51]

I am excited to hear that they are restructuring the NCO program but I have to agree that CAP could use an entire enlisted force structure; every new Senior Member that joins is a 2LT in 6 months even if they know very little about CAP. If you're going to have a Professional NCO Corps that has to complete training that mirrors the Air Force then you will have to have an equally professional Officer Corps with a minimum training requirement that all members complete the CAP Basic Officer Training Course before they are appointed as Officers. Really it would not hurt to raise the bar just a little.

So you feel the bar is not high enough?

[Shuman 14]

CAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

No.

And why not oh grand mufti of all knowledge near, far, and CAP? 

If you're going to have a NCO program, as the new backbone of the organization, why would you not have the standard and expected NCO support chain in place?

[Shuman 14]

CAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

There is an NCO support chain position, squadron NCO. However, it seems that even the powers that be recognize that there won't ever, or at least for a significant amount of time, be enough NCOs in a squadron to warrant having a First Sergeant.

but the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

Plus your argument holds no water when you have squadrons filled with MAJs and LTCs "commanded" by 1LTs. Adding a First Sergeant position simply follows normal military protocol. 

[Eclipse]

but the writing is on the wall, the future will most likely be an NCO driven organization, so why not have that support chain in place now, then try to build it later?

You literally have no idea what you are talking about, have no understanding of the landscape, and no skin in the game.

[Storm Chaser]

So you feel the bar is not high enough?

Yes, I do feel the bar is not high enough.