NCO Program Launched

[Shuman 14]

I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is? 

First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.

I understand that, an Army 1SG and CSM is a position while MSG and SGM are staff ranks. 

CAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well? 

[Mitchell 1969]

I can only agree that the current state of the NCO program does not include a whole lot of people.  (But of course, each of our current NCO's is a valued member performing crucial volunteer service.)

But over the decades that particular pendulum has swung back and forth several times.  My point is that each time we have revised the program, we have done so in an effort to improve CAP and make us more effective.  But so far, revising the NCO program has not correlated well with any significant reduction in our capabilities or size of the membership.  It is mostly "business as usual."

I'll buy into all of that. But I keep seeing references to CAP having had NCOs for over 70 years. And, while the pendulum has swung to make CAP more effective, etc., one major swing seems to be getting all blurry and melted away.

Specifically, out of that 70+ years, CAP has had, broadly speaking, and chronologically, 4 NCO approaches:

1) NCO appointment (and promotions) available regardless of prior-service or no prior-service NCO status;
3) No NCO appointment unless possessing prior-service NCO status, with no promotion possibility;
4) The announced yet not fully briefed new system, seemingly open to prior-service NCOs and others.

(And, while it is indeed difficult to comment on something not yet fully up for review, it does appear that #4 is more likely to be an update/upgrade/refinement of #1 rather than anything else).

Note that I didn't list #2. Because, #2 was the period where cap had NO NCOS. None. Whether prior service or not, there were none. So it's really hard to call it an "NCO Program."  But it was definitely an "NCO approach."

And there are three significant aspects to it:  A) It, too, was a "pendulum swing" enacted in an effort to make CAP more effective, etc., with a decision made that having no NCOs was in CAPs interests at the time; B) It was an approach of long duration - I don't have the exact ending dates handy, but I believe that it has been over 30 years since a person not having prior-service NCO status has been able to be appointed as a CAP NCO. C) It was only partially eliminated as a limited concession to prior-service NCOs in order to recognize their prior NCO status.

So.....chronogically, we end up with....the last time that CAP engaged in a comprehensive review, shared with the membership, of the need for NCOs in CAP, the result was a conclusion that they were NOT needed. That was followed by saying that people already trained and experienced as NCOs could be accommodated, but not promoted.

Now, some 30 years or so later, announcements are made that " NCOs are the backbone" and "excellence starts now," with the apparent decision that NCOs can not only be accommodated, but are seemingly needed. Yet...nobody seems to know what it is about this approach #4 that overturns the documented, discussed and published reviews that were made available to the membership before they were enacted three decades ago.

Yes, as a CAP officer, I'll support it. But, as a CAP officer, I am disappointed that this indeed seems to have been done backwards this go around. It's a true puzzlement to me.

[Eclipse]

CAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

No.

[jeders]

CAP has "commands" with an assigned commander... should those commanders have an appropriate NCO support chain position as well?

There is an NCO support chain position, squadron NCO. However, it seems that even the powers that be recognize that there won't ever, or at least for a significant amount of time, be enough NCOs in a squadron to warrant having a First Sergeant.

[Storm Chaser]

.. mostly because I feel we have too many officers in CAP..

What an interesting observation. Considering that is our current ranking system, should we take that as "we have too many (Senior) members? ..and if we have too many, do we just shut down recruiting for a while?

No to all accounts. What I meant is that an officer in CAP is not the same as an officer anywhere else (military or otherwise). So, why do we have CAP officers, wearing officer grade insignias, not doing the work that an officer would normally do? That's really my point when I say we have "too" many officer.

At some point, and I hope I'm not offending anyone since I'm a CAP officer too, it becomes more about ego. Many want to be officers not because they're commanding or leading anything, but because it's a recognition of service, professional development and progression in the organization. But that's not why most organizations (and I'm not just talking about the military) have "officers". An officer grade should denote authority, competency and responsibility, but that's not always the case in CAP.

(edited for grammar)

[FW]

 It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility. 

[jeders]

It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility.

If both the NCO and officer programs are restructured in a way to make this happen without killing our membership numbers, then I welcome it. However, history isn't on our side.

[AirAux]

I have a strange feeling that this is a half-baked idea that was floated before it received full authorization from the Air Force and that is why we are not getting any details or direction.  As has been mentioned, this was attempted years ago and ended up going nowhere.  It's kind of cheap for some to run around touting it's all about "Respect", but then to totally ignore all of the E-4's and below that served proudly and are just as proud of their rank as the NCO's are.  Where is the "Respect" for them??  I predict this is going nowhere..

[RiverAux]

It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility.

Well, only if they require all new members to start off as NCOs (keep in mind there is no provision for other enlisted ranks).  If they make it an option for non-prior service to become NCOs I'm sure that some will do so, but seeing as how the promotion system works the same with either route except for the fact that your max NCO rank would probably be capped due to the manning tables, I'm not sure why NPS would choose that route. 

[Storm Chaser]

I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is? 

First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.

I don't think we need a CAP [Command] Chief Master Sergeant either, but we do.

[FW]

It seems that all staff positions will be open to CAP NCOs.  So, in the not to distant future, there will possibly be a squadron full of CAP Sergeants with 2 or 3 CAP officers in command positions. Grade will become, for all purposes, an indicator of resposibility.

Well, only if they require all new members to start off as NCOs (keep in mind there is no provision for other enlisted ranks).  If they make it an option for non-prior service to become NCOs I'm sure that some will do so, but seeing as how the promotion system works the same with either route except for the fact that your max NCO rank would probably be capped due to the manning tables, I'm not sure why NPS would choose that route.

In a perfect CAP universe, that may be the solution.  Those accepted to the OE2 program will become officers; eligible for command and upper level leadership positions.  In any event, I've enjoyed reading these many thoughts, and eating many bowls of popcorn..

[Papabird]

Well, only if they require all new members to start off as NCOs (keep in mind there is no provision for other enlisted ranks).  If they make it an option for non-prior service to become NCOs I'm sure that some will do so, but seeing as how the promotion system works the same with either route except for the fact that your max NCO rank would probably be capped due to the manning tables, I'm not sure why NPS would choose that route.

Actually, in my reading of the USAF PDF (on the third time now), I see SMWOG as the sub-NCO level of enlisted seniors.  I get this from Item 4. Restructure Program: / Section d. Promotion Criteria / Paragraph 1. "All members, regardless of current, former or retired military rank will enter CAP as a Senior Member".  Then it goes on talking about getting promoted from there.  To me, it sounds like that SMWOG is below the NCOs and be the starting block for all.  Then in Phase III, the item discussed before "Complete revision of promotion eligibility and PD training criteria to synchronize Officer and NCO Corps.   

I wouldn't be surprised if that "grade" sees some changes too.  Namely, no officer braid on flight cap, no officer braid on service coat, etc.  So, a chart like this:

Military Equiv.             CAP Grade                                                         
E1 through E4            Senior Memb W/O Grade
E5 through E7            CAP Company NCOs
E8 through E9            CAP Senior NCOs (only at Group/Wing or higher)
O-1 through O-3         CAP Company Officers
O-4 through O-8         CAP Field/General Officers (only at Group/Wing or higher)

Not a bad idea, in theory.  One draw back is the movement of people from a higher echelon to a lower one. (e.g. Wing to Squadron), as that type of movement is not possible in the USAF, but it is reality in CAP.  I am sure there are other drawbacks, but there are positives too.

I would still like to see a strategy that links the NCO Corps to an overall goal.  But, that is above my pay grade (of nothing, LOL).

But I could see a bunch of "slick sleeve" SMWOG, and NCOs and three-four officers (Command staff only) as the entire senior staff in a unit.  Might actually make sense, but according to the PDF, there are three phases, each lasting 18-24 months, so that is a 6 year plan for just the NCO/enlisted Corps.  Then, possibly a 6 year re-org for officers, that is a 12 year goal.   Possibly the longest implementation plan I have seen in some time.

Very interesting.  May you live in interesting times.   

[Storm Chaser]

Not a bad idea, in theory.  One draw back is the movement of people from a higher echelon to a lower one. (e.g. Wing to Squadron), as that type of movement is not possible in the USAF, but it is reality in CAP.

Actually, that is possible in the USAF, especially in the Reserve, but it's just done a bit differently. A Lt Col assigned as a staff officer in higher headquarters can return to a squadron, but usually returns as a Commander or Operations Officer (AF equivalent to a Deputy Commander in CAP).

In squadrons with large amounts of officers (e.g. flying units), they may also also come back in a position such as Chief Pilot, Chief of Stan/Eval or Chief of Current Ops, just to name a few. What you're not going to see in the Air Force is a Lt Col assigned to a squadron where the Commander is a Capt.

[MHC5096]

However I have seen a Lieutenant Colonel resign his commission after being passed over for O-6 and enlist as a Staff Sergeant because he didn't want to retire. One weekend he's a Squadron Commander and the next drill weekend he's a personnel troop wearing stripes. Of course my unit was odd like that. We also had a number of E-5s, E-6s and E-7s who were Air Force Academy graduates. In thier case, they had fulfilled thier active duty obligations as officers and there were no available officer billets when they affiliated with the Air National Guard.

[JC004]

So...it's pretty obvious that many CAP units struggle with manning (maybe most, when you consider manning everything).  Many units struggle with having someone ready and willing to take command.  Since the Air Force doesn't want units commanded by CAP NCOs, does a pool of mostly NCOs cut down on potential commanders even MORE? 

Would people be hopping from SSgt to 1st Lt to fill a needed command slot? 

CAP squadrons tend to be small.  Air Force squadrons (and the ability to move people around) are a WHOLE different ball game.

[Papabird]

What you're not going to see in the Air Force is a Lt Col assigned to a squadron where the Commander is a Capt.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  This is the situation that was what I was referring, the whole Lt Col getting the coffee situation.  I understand the other examples as well, and they could be the same (Advisor to the commander, etc.), but it won't take long for units to get top heavy again.

[ZigZag911]

For those "older" members, I am curious what the feelings were when CAP eliminated the Enlisted Grades from the program, only allowing former military members to wear stripes??

While I don't recall exact dates, there was a long period of time between elimination of enlisted grades and the establishment of the present ("prior service NCOs only") system.

WIWAC, as I understood it, warrant grades were reserved for SMs who were 21 or older (eventually this was changed for former cadets under 21 with Mitchell or better), as well as commissioned grades...NCOs thus tended to be SMs under 21 years old, lacking prior cadet service (or at east lacking a milestone award)...there did not seem to be any standards or requirements, appointment and promotion was by squadron CCs, and most of those I encountered were MSgts.

[FW]

^That's how I remember the system to work so many years ago. There were no CAP NCO's over the age of 21 that I can remember back then.

[RiverAux]

All members, regardless of current, former or retired military rank will enter CAP as a Senior Member".

Well, this is the current situation.  Everyone enters CAP as a SM.  Then they either promote up, choose to demote to NCO, or stay where they are by refusing promotion. 

[Mitchell 1969]

However I have seen a Lieutenant Colonel resign his commission after being passed over for O-6 and enlist as a Staff Sergeant because he didn't want to retire. One weekend he's a Squadron Commander and the next drill weekend he's a personnel troop wearing stripes. Of course my unit was odd like that. We also had a number of E-5s, E-6s and E-7s who were Air Force Academy graduates. In thier case, they had fulfilled thier active duty obligations as officers and there were no available officer billets when they affiliated with the Air National Guard.

Lt. Col. Bill Dunn, USAF, former pilot in one of the RAF Eagle Squadrons, was victim of a reduction in force post-WWII. He describes in his biography how he met with a classification officer and was offered MSgt, then argued with him and walked out as a TSgt. with Senior Pilot USAF wings and RAF wings, which must have been interesting. He later rose to CW4 and served in Vietnam.

I knew a USAF captain who was "RIF'd" in the early 1970's as Vietnam started drawing down. He became an A1C. Proudly wore his two stripes and pilot wings, just needed a while to retire. And, retirement comes at highest grade held.