NCO Program Launched

[Shuman 14]

I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

Maybe, maybe not.

The Army and Marine Corps both have E-5 Sergeants and the Navy and Coast Guard both have 2nd Class Petty Officers... all are NCOs. They could be new joins.

Question: If a prior Service Army or Marine Corps Corporal and/or a Navy or Coast Guard 3rd Class Petty Officer entered CAP, and wished to remain a NCO, whould they be entered as a CAP SSGT?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

Maybe, maybe not.

The Army and Marine Corps both have E-5 Sergeants and the Navy and Coast Guard both have 2nd Class Petty Officers... all are NCOs. They could be new joins.

Question: If a prior Service Army or Marine Corps Corporal and/or a Navy or Coast Guard 3rd Class Petty Officer entered CAP, and wished to remain a NCO, whould they be entered as a CAP SSGT?

CAP doesn't count E-4 as NCOs, and they don't get a boost. SMWOG or Lt for them.

[RogueLeader]

One thing I don't agree with in the letter is the one line regarding the Officer Grades.  The letter was approved by Air Force on the basis it was in regard to CAP NCOs, but that single sentence addressing CAP Officers could be used as justification to do whatever is deemed correct to the entry and promotion regulations for CAP Officers.

I don't doubt that as a possibility, but you would have to set up where the new members will go before you change the Officer requirements.  That's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

[Майор Хаткевич]

One thing I don't agree with in the letter is the one line regarding the Officer Grades.  The letter was approved by Air Force on the basis it was in regard to CAP NCOs, but that single sentence addressing CAP Officers could be used as justification to do whatever is deemed correct to the entry and promotion regulations for CAP Officers.

I don't doubt that as a possibility, but you would have to set up where the new members will go before you change the Officer requirements.  That's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

Maybe we'll go the way AF dealt with Warrants. Just dont make any, but keep them on the books.

[RogueLeader]

I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs. That said...a whopping 80 NCOs in CAP! 5/80 are E-4 Bucks! Those members must be OOOOOLD.

Remember that the Navy and Marine Corps E-4s are NCOs as well as certain Army E-4s.  I bet they requested a waiver to policy, and got it.

As a matter of fact I have 5 RM NCO's in my unit that could be CAP NCO's.  2 E-5s, 2 E-7s, and 1 E-9.  All but the E-9 is going Officer due to the no promoting clause.  How that is going to change with the new program.

Sure, but CAP Reg clearly states E-5 and up. Also, bad news for your Chief...unless he goes to wing or up, he'll be a SMSgt.

That's assuming that there will be no Grandfathering of current NCOs.

[Eclipse]

That's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder
anytime the subject is brought up.

I've been advocating a reboot for years - done properly, fairly, and with mission-focus, and it's what CAP needs.
Done piecemeal and for no real reason and it'll be more reason people quit.

[RogueLeader]

Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder
anytime the subject is brought up.

Agreed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's a great way to chase members off, to do otherwise.

Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder
anytime the subject is brought up.

I've been advocating a reboot for years - done properly, fairly, and with mission-focus, and it's what CAP needs.
Done piecemeal and for no real reason and it'll be more reason people quit.

You mean how I'm still pissed about my cadet conference attendance and lack of credit? Yea, it sticks around in the back of the mind. Especially because I can't make it to this years confence with two years left...

[NCRblues]

Well, due to Ned's reaction to the mention of changing the entrance to "officer" I'm going to guess that little line slipped into that memo "whoops where did that come from".

I would venture my next (cap) pay check that the next BOG meeting will have some very interesting talks and we may see a tone down on that part.

[RogueLeader]

Well, due to Ned's reaction to the mention of changing the entrance to "officer" I'm going to guess that little line slipped into that memo "whoops where did that come from".

I would venture my next (cap) pay check that the next BOG meeting will have some very interesting talks and we may see a tone down on that part.

Also note that Ned said that he wasn't briefed on the topic. . . .So . . . you may be incorrect.

He was asking because it wasn't posted anywhere else in this thread.

[NCRblues]

Well, due to Ned's reaction to the mention of changing the entrance to "officer" I'm going to guess that little line slipped into that memo "whoops where did that come from".

I would venture my next (cap) pay check that the next BOG meeting will have some very interesting talks and we may see a tone down on that part.

Also note that Ned said that he wasn't briefed on the topic. . . .So . . . you may be incorrect.

He was asking because it wasn't posted anywhere else in this thread.

Of course I could be incorrect.

BUT, a redue of that magnitude in requirements to even join CAP is going to take buy in and an ok of the BOG.

They will have to look at the cause and effect of any new requirements, along with all the variables that come along with it.

A massive redue of the "officer" requirements is not something CAP can afford to do half hearted or overnight. This would directly effect each and every member and could effect our mission capabilities (IE manning numbers which are already pushed to some limits as is and member buy in).

This is most defiantly a BOG issue, sooner or later.

[Shuman 14]

OK, let me pose this... everyone volunteered in CAP for a reason, those reasons vary from at the bad end they want to wear rank and a uniform and be confused for something they are not; to at the good end where they simply want to help make their communities and America as whole a better place. You will have varying shades of both end throughout the spectrum of CAP (or any other volunteer organization for that matter).

So for those that truly are from a shade of the good end, does it really matter if they wear a blue or grey uniform and are addressed as Sergeant, Chief, Flight Officer, Warrant Officer, Lieutenant, Captain, Colonel or "Hey Joe"?

For the majority, no, they volunteer because that's what they want to do and they will wear whatever you tell them to and be called whatever you want to call them and carry on with their current duties and missions... with some grumbling... but carry on none the less.

So is CAP transitioning to an Enlisted/NCO centric organization vs. an Officer centric organization? Maybe.

If the driving force of CAP's mission stays the same... does it really matter?

Again, as an outsider looking in, I think CAP is going to trim down it's Officer Corps and direct new membership into a Enlisted (Senior Member) and NCO track and require pilot's licenses and/or bachelor degrees for future Officers.

My guess is they will grandfather everyone's current rank and emplace the new requirements for all future new CAP members.

Again just guessing, but this is what I think will happen:

All prior Service Military personal E-5 and above will retain their rank, exception for Warrant Officers who will either be transitioned to 2LT or given Technical Flight Officer grades. E-4 and below will given promotions to CAP SSGT on completion of level 1 training.

All non-prior Service will start as Enlisted (Senior Member) and will progress thru NCOs ranks. Exceptions

Licensed pilots will complete Level 1 and will be give the choice of staying on the NCO track or transitioning to the "warrant" grades of Technical Flight Officer and will progress based on their flight certification and licenses.

Prior CAP cadets will be jumped to CAP TSGT.

All future Officers, to more align with USAF requirements, will be required hold a Bachelors degree from an accredited university. Other than the degree itself, the current career progression for the Officer track will remain in place.

As I said before, current CAP Officers would be grandfathered at their current rank but will not be allowed to promote to their next rank until they complete the degree requirement.

Over time, with normal retirements, the old CAP Officer Corps will go away and you have a "new" CAP, same mission as "old" CAP, but with more Staff NCOs and less Field Grade Officers.

And I suspect that's what the USAF wants in the long run.

[RiverAux]

Third, unofficial forums like CAPTalk do not reach significant numbers of the senior leadership, so "strenuous opposition" made in a place where it is unlikely to be seen and evaluated by our senior leaders does not seem a productive or efficient way to impact policy.

Keep in mind that an individual member only has the right to make their opinions known about current or proposed regulations to ONE person -- their commander.  They may or may not feel the need to pass it up.  My personal experience is that even when pointing out actual errors (not just opinions about something) is that it rarely makes it anyplace.  My evidence -- the errors persist in the final draft of the regulations. 

Sure, CAPTalk isn't going to make it to all the powers that be, but more officers read it than we have a right to talk to in any official capacity. 

[abdsp51]

I don't think the organization will start requiring degrees to promote in the officer field or to even join the officer fields.  This will have growing pains and if the powers to be go the route that Shuman has envisioned I forsee a mass exodus in membership. 

Does the organization need some fixing in aspects yes it does but we do not need to do a major overhaul on our grade system and promotion requirements.  Or incorporating WO into the mix or giving grade based upon position etc, we need to tweak the areas that need tweaking, work on improving/starting relations with other agencies and work on building our credibility in areas where it has been shot or there is little to none.

Honestly what is really broken about our current grade structure and requirements to warrant a massive overhaul?

[RiverAux]

Fact from the written proposal -- CAP has only 80 NCOs currently.

Weird stuff included in the proposal-
NCOs assigned to a "specific position/area" within the unit such as Communications Supervisor, Ground Team Supervisor, Cadet Programs Supervisor.  Anyone ever heard of those positions?  How about Chief of Logistics, Planning, or Emergency Services (as staff positions, not ES roles).  Either they're planning on creating them or this is another example of people not understanding our current structure while putting this one together. 

Tenure requirements for staff positions for NCOs.  Officers can serve in staff positions forever, NCOs not so much. 

After reading this, it seems like this is the first step to a major restructuring of the entire CAP program even though they aren't advertising it as such.  Possibly towards making most folks start as enlisted.  As I said earlier in the thread, I would be in favor of that, but only if there were absolutely NO way to become a CAP officer except by working your way up through the entire program.  Military officers would start as buck private.   Somehow I doubt that is going to happen. 

[Eclipse]

Third, unofficial forums like CAPTalk do not reach significant numbers of the senior leadership, so "strenuous opposition" made in a place where it is unlikely to be seen and evaluated by our senior leaders does not seem a productive or efficient way to impact policy.

Keep in mind that an individual member only has the right to make their opinions known about current or proposed regulations to ONE person -- their commander.  They may or may not feel the need to pass it up.  My personal experience is that even when pointing out actual errors (not just opinions about something) is that it rarely makes it anyplace.  My evidence -- the errors persist in the final draft of the regulations. 

Sure, CAPTalk isn't going to make it to all the powers that be, but more officers read it than we have a right to talk to in any official capacity.

Are you quoting from a PM or an email?   I don't see that text anywhere on this site.

As to the assertion - it's a point of fact that members of the BOG, the National CC, Wing CC's, and other national leadership lurk here regularly.  Guaranteed they are
reading this.  More specific and direct results have come out of discussion here then will ever come out of addressing things up the chain.

That's not always a positive, but it's a fact of life in the internet age.

[Eclipse]

Fact from the written proposal -- CAP has only 80 NCOs currently.

Wow - only 80, I would have thought it was more then that.

That means that despite the seeming push by some here to jump off the metal and put their stripes back on, the
actual growth of the program is statistically zero.

[Panache]

I think Panache and I are. Ktb working g off the fact that the CAP has to be there. Certainly for SNCOs.

Yup, that's why I left the CAP lettering in there for MSgt and above.  Personally, I think it looks better without it, but I'm sure the AF would want to make sure that random Joe Airman who somehow missed the bright red prop design and the blue nametapes/gray nametag doesn't mistake a CAP Master Sergeant for a AF Master Sergeant and freak out over it.

Remember that the Navy and Marine Corps E-4s are NCOs as well as certain Army E-4s.  I bet they requested a waiver to policy, and got it.

I find this hilarious.  "Thank you for your interest in joining CAP, Corporal. Unfortunately, the Civil Air Patrol doesn't recognize your status as an NCO. So we're going to have to make you a Lieutenant.  I am deeply sorry."

Better still is to change things mid-stride on the guys who are mid-career.  Hand a "go to jail" card to a Capt on the cusp of Major and he's likely to just forget the whole thing - he might stay in, but will probably just drop the PD and carry a chip on his shoulder anytime the subject is brought up.

Heck, even a 1st Lieutenant about to make Captain.  I know I would be a touch cranky about that.

All future Officers, to more align with USAF requirements, will be required hold a Bachelors degree from an accredited university. Other than the degree itself, the current career progression for the Officer track will remain in place.

As I said before, current CAP Officers would be grandfathered at their current rank but will not be allowed to promote to their next rank until they complete the degree requirement.

This would be a drastic mistake, and a sure way to cause a mass exodus of members.  I know I would seriously consider walking away if this was to happen.

"Sorry Lt. Panache.  But with the overhaul, because you never spent four years of your life and $40,000 getting a degree in Mongolian Yak Husbandry, I'm afraid that we can't promote you.  But we really appreciate the hard work you've put in."

Now, on the other hand, if I was told that I was being "demoted" to NCO status or not being allowed to progress past Lieutenant because the "commissioned" officer ranks were going to be reserved exclusively for command positions, yeah, that I would agree with.

I still think the Warrant Officer route that others and myself have suggested would be the best course of action.

All non-prior Service will start as Enlisted (Senior Member) and will progress thru NCOs ranks.

I am wondering what NHQ's long game on this is.  It clearly stated that only current and former RealMilitary™ NCOs would be allowed to transfer/join the CAP NCO corps.  But it also hinted that this was temporary.  I suspect that you're right, and that new members will be "encouraged" to join on the enlisted side.

But what about those new senior members who aren't 21 yet?  Will they become flight officers and be "demoted" to SSgt on their 21st birthday?  Will they hold lower enlisted grades (SMWOG, Airman Basic, Airman 1st Class, Senior Airman) and transition up to SSgt/TSgt/MSgt when they're old enough?

[Eclipse]

[SarDragon]

I notice no First Sergeants, wonder why that is? 

First sergeant is a position, not a rank/grade, and I'm guessing it's not something we really need in the SM arena.