NCO Program Launched

[RogueLeader]

I don't think it looks that bad, though you have to wonder why the CAP is necessary if the prop replaces the star.

Eventually non-prior service members will be CAP NCOs so there is a legitimate need to have distinctive stripes.  I actually prefer the 1st line of stripes that USAFAux put out.

[Eclipse]

You're thinking we'd have two classes of NCOs? Military and CAP with different insignia?

[Flying Pig]

So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

[Майор Хаткевич]

So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

Ain't the Nat.Guard like that?

[RogueLeader]

You're thinking we'd have two classes of NCOs? Military and CAP with different insignia?

No, all NCOs in CAP will wear the same stripes, regardless of whether they were prior service or not.

So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

Unfortunately, that is the case.

[Eclipse]

So if a MSgt decided to stick around for 15 years, nobody can promote above TSgt in the Sq?

Unfortunately, that is the case.

Manning tables without an "up or out" culture will degrade back to the circular mess we have on the officer side somewhere between 5-10 years.

The only way they work long-term is if the higher grades are temporary or you restrict people from returning to a unit after serving higher.

They also don't account for member who walk in the door as Chiefs but have no interest in anything above a unit.

[Al Sayre]

What do you do with all the retired E-7,8,9's that swap over?  It seems that you'd probably be over the available billets right off the bat if everyone decided to switch for some reason.  At one point, in my squadron alone I had an E-2, an E-3 and 2 E-4's all National Guard members, plus 3 E-6's (one National Guard, 2 retired), 1 E-7 and 2 E-8's all retired.

[Flying Pig]

Hmmm... So if Im a SMSgt in CAWG, relocate to FL and join a Squadron/Group that already has one, I get demoted back to TSgt?    Unlike the military, CAP members are free to move around at will.   Could they actually deny my membership based on no billets available?

[RogueLeader]

What do you do with all the retired E-7,8,9's that swap over?  It seems that you'd probably be over the available billets right off the bat if everyone decided to switch for some reason.  At one point, in my squadron alone I had an E-2, an E-3 and 2 E-4's all National Guard members, plus 3 E-6's (one National Guard, 2 retired), 1 E-7 and 2 E-8's all retired.

In my unit, today (plus the one I signed Monday night)  have an E-9, E-7, and an E-5.  I would have to force one to E-6.  The e-5 is currently a CAP 1^st LT, who by the time that we go forward with this will have his SLS, and Level 2, which would make him eligible for TSgt.

I wonder what they have in mind for those Officers that want to go to the NCO route?

[RogueLeader]

Hmmm... So if Im a SMSgt in CAWG, relocate to FL and join a Squadron/Group that already has one, I get demoted back to TSgt?    Unlike the military, CAP members are free to move around at will.   Could they actually deny my membership based on no billets available?

I think thats why they did away with the Officer billets back in the day.

[RiverAux]

So, its exactly as big a joke as I feared. 

Nothing other than having NCOs follow THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM THAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE AS CAP OFFICERS!

Its confirmed then -- this is nothing but an ego project. 

The fact that this is the only real distinction in the program

To train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management

and

To provide CAP commanders with access to the professional military skills, training and experience of former NCOs

makes it even more laughable since they say they're going to allow non-prior service in.

So, just how is a non-prior service NCO going to accomplish those tasks?

[a2capt]

..and if there's a limit of how many per region/wing/group, then it's going to be a race to the top and suffice to say that the GoB networks will probably fill the slots the day it's official.

Why do we need this?

[Panache]

I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed.

Looking at the powerpoint, I still can't see a "need" or legit purpose for the NCO corps in CAP.  As the way CAP is currently organized, I don't see why somebody who holds an officer grade can't perform the tasks listed, and why putting stripes on them all of the sudden makes them better at that function.

(/shrugs)

I just don't quite grok why we need two PD tracks which, for all intents and purposes, are identical in their achievement milestones but have different titles / wear different insignia.

That being said, I really don't see a reason to trade in my bars for stripes.  Personally, I don't feel it would effect my performance in any way.

Redefined the standards for entry into the CAP Officer program

Now this sounds interesting.  I wonder what they have in mind here.

[NCRblues]

Well, the allowable table killed any hope of this being a step forward. If this is offical, my local unit will lose people over this. The unit has a retired army e8, an AF e7 and a retired army e9. So, which one does the commander get to demote?

Shame...

[Майор Хаткевич]

If I read it right, that's a maning table AT promotion. If they are there already, so be it.

[Mitchell 1969]

1) Assuming that this is available to incoming Seniors without prior service, it would appear tv hat CAP could end up with something that was such an embarrassment in the '70's that it aided in the demise of "off the street" NCOs back then - namely, MSgts who are not old enough to buy a beer.

2) If they made the prop red, inside a white triangle, which goes inside the blue circle, that would be a double-whammy - a nod to CAP heritage and it would be PLENTY distinctive from USAF, making the "CAP" lettering unnecessary.

[jimmydeanno]

Lots of pages...may have missed it.

Any indication on what the plan is for our existing members?  With "redefined standards for entry into the Officer corps" it sounds like the requirements for new members becoming officers would be more stringent (read college degrees and appropriate positions), but what are we thinking the folks who have already been Lt Cols for 20 years will go? 

If there is a forced transition to the new NCO program, I wonder how many folks would file their retirement paperwork. 

[NCRblues]

I think some here are seeing boogiemen behind this NCO idea.

I very highly doubt a "forced transition program" will take place, the logistics and cost to members alone would end a large portion of the "Tuesday night volunteers" and CAP can't afford a mass walk off (especially in the lower member populated wings).

I also highly doubt a "degree requirement" will be implemented. Again, I believe it would drive off way to many very capable "Tuesday night volunteers" to be even remotely viable in this organization.

Maybe it is time for someone who is in a high control position within this organization to come on here and help dispel some "end of the world" theories.. Cough cough Ned cough cough...

[Private Investigator]

Would that be you pretty ladies talking troops into paying for overpriced, watered down drinks for a chance to talk with them. Mostly drunks sitting at me bar. Anything else isn't really in the job description. But the name does sound like its describing something dirty and no family oriented.

I been to Korea and I was Military Police and I can tell you how stupid and ignorant american boys (small 'a' on purpose) can be. No reason to go there, saavy?

[Private Investigator]

By Looking at the powerpoint slides it looks like it's easier to get promoted to Lieutenant Colonel than Chief Master Sergeant.

Wow. It must have been done by the "camel design committee".