NCO Program Launched

[Майор Хаткевич]

"They" are working on removing it from the honor code.

"They"?

[Grumpy]

The AFA announced last Friday that after having been sued by Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder, Mikey Weinstein, the clause, "So help me God" will become optional in the cadet oath.

I know, I know, they said optional.  That's why I said "trying" to take it out of the oath.  But, IMHO,  that's just the first step.

I read the article in Military.com dated 28 Oct 2013.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The AFA announced last Friday that after having been sued by Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder, Mikey Weinstein, the clause, "So help me God" will become optional in the cadet oath.

I know, I know, they said optional.  That's why I said "trying" to take it out of the oath.  But, IMHO,  that's just the first step.

I read the article in Military.com dated 28 Oct 2013.

So what's the issue?

[AirAux]

The issue is that one of the reasons to bring the NCO program into CAP (I know it's been here, but management is attempting to expand it) is based upon the tradition of NCO's and the tradition that NCO's don't want to be officers due to well, tradition.  The issue is that saying "So help me God" has been traditional at USAFA since it's inception and because the atheists are so fearful of hearing God's name they want it removed from tradition, thereby destroying tradition.  If tradition is so easily destroyed, why need an NCO program??

[PHall]

Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

It's an Air Force custom; I don't believe it's spelled out in any AFI. I've been in the Air Force for over 17 years both as an officer and NCO and it's always been perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am". In fact, I remembered being yelled at by a SrA when I first enlisted because I didn't call her "ma'am". In the Air Force, you don't usually hear anyone being called just plain "sergeant". It's more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant".

Never in my 31-1/2 years was I addressed as sir except for that accident and a few times by foriegn nationals who called everybody sir.
I was normally addressed as Sgt Hall or when I was on the jet, by my crew position, which is normal.

But hey, most of my career was spent in either the Air Guard or the Reserve. So maybe the Active Duty types do it differently. Wouldn't be the first time...

[Майор Хаткевич]

The issue is that one of the reasons to bring the NCO program into CAP (I know it's been here, but management is attempting to expand it) is based upon the tradition of NCO's and the tradition that NCO's don't want to be officers due to well, tradition.  The issue is that saying "So help me God" has been traditional at USAFA since it's inception and because the atheists are so fearful of hearing God's name they want it removed from tradition, thereby destroying tradition.  If tradition is so easily destroyed, why need an NCO program??

It's optional, not removed. There's no war on religion here, just common sense. If I SWEAR an oath, why would I lie and say that part if I don't believe in a God? Chriaitians won't worship/allow other sect members to worship in their churches. You wont see a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist in a Catholic Church for prayer. This really isn't any different. No different from the Pledge, which had Under God put in during the 50s.

[Storm Chaser]

Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

It's an Air Force custom; I don't believe it's spelled out in any AFI. I've been in the Air Force for over 17 years both as an officer and NCO and it's always been perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am". In fact, I remembered being yelled at by a SrA when I first enlisted because I didn't call her "ma'am". In the Air Force, you don't usually hear anyone being called just plain "sergeant". It's more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant".

Never in my 31-1/2 years was I addressed as sir except for that accident and a few times by foriegn nationals who called everybody sir.
I was normally addressed as Sgt Hall or when I was on the jet, by my crew position, which is normal.

But hey, most of my career was spent in either the Air Guard or the Reserve. So maybe the Active Duty types do it differently. Wouldn't be the first time...

First of all, thank you for your service. If you read my post carefully, you'll notice I said it's "perfectly acceptable to call an NCO "sir" or "ma'am"", not that it's required. I also said that it's "more common to be called "Sgt Smith" or "Sgt Jones", than just "sergeant"", which is how you were normally addressed (i.e. Sgt Hall). Unlike the Army, in the Air Force we don't usually say "yes, sergeant" or "sergeant, Airman Smith reports as ordered"; we use "sir" or "ma'am". Also, I've never heard an Air Force NCO correct an airman because he/she said "sir" instead of "sergeant"; I've heard Army NCOs do that. Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

[Grumpy]

Amen!

[PHall]

Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
But hey, do what you want.

[Storm Chaser]

Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
But hey, do what you want.

If this was a matter of opinion, then I would say "fair enough" and move on. But this is what the MTIs thought us in BMT back in the mid 90s. Maybe it was different back in your days; I won't argue that. But this is the way it is now.

[PHall]

Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
But hey, do what you want.

If this was a matter of opinion, then I would say "fair enough" and move on. But this is what the MTIs thought us in BMT back in the mid 90s. Maybe it was different back in your days; I won't argue that. But this is the way it is now.

Ah, but AFI 36-2618, 27 Feb 2009, The Enlisted Force Structure, would disagree with you.

But MTI's are never wrong, right?

[AirAux]

Addressing an NCO as Sir is the same as saluting him/her and that never happens.  Further:

8 AFI1-1 7 AUGUST 2012
1.6.5. Titles of Address. Military personnel are addressed by their grade or title. Pay grade terms (e.g., E-9, O-6) are not to be used to address or identify military personnel. Officers are addressed by their grade (e.g., captain, major, general, etc.) or ―sir or ―ma'am.

Doesn't say the same for NCO's.

[lordmonar]

Yep....know what the regs say. 

Know what my TI taught me.

Know what I did.

Sir and Ma'am are acceptable terms of address for NCO's.

Sgt is ALSO an acceptable term of address for NCO's.

[Storm Chaser]

Heck, I've used expressions such as "yes, sir" or "thank you, sir" when talking to NCOs and I'm a major. I see it as a sign of respect.

That's where you and I differ. I address them as Sergeant since since that is the proper term address for them.
But hey, do what you want.

If this was a matter of opinion, then I would say "fair enough" and move on. But this is what the MTIs thought us in BMT back in the mid 90s. Maybe it was different back in your days; I won't argue that. But this is the way it is now.

Ah, but AFI 36-2618, 27 Feb 2009, The Enlisted Force Structure, would disagree with you.

AFI 36-2618 is not a good reference to support your argument because it refers to title and term of address. A lieutenant colonel can be addressed as "lieutenant colonel" or "colonel" just like a staff sergeant can be addressed as "staff sergeant" or " sergeant". AFI 1-1 is a better source to support your argument as it specifically states that officers may also be addressed as "sir" or "ma'am", but it doesn't say the same about enlisted. It also doesn't prohibit the use and you won't find a reference that does. AFIs are one thing and tradition and culture are another.

But MTI's are never wrong, right?

Sergeant Hall, I think you meant to say, "But MTI's are never wrong, right, sir?" 

[Private Investigator]

In "Laser Tag" we call everyone "sir", even the girls   

[Eclipse]

Addressing an NCO as Sir is the same as saluting him/her and that never happens.

Never?

Those thousands of USAF and Marine Recruits that go through BMT every year are going to be super-relieved.
Marines Boot Camp - Meet the Drill Instructors (Part 1)

[Flying Pig]

Marine Drill Instructors are addressed as "Sir" until the day you graduate.  Once you graduate, you address them by rank.  When I walked my family around MCRD San Diego mere minutes after graduation, a DI would pass and I was stand at attention and say "Good afternoon Sir".  One DI stopped and said "We are brothers now Private, from now on use rank."  Even several weeks into infantry school we all still did it.  Also, in boot camp you refer to everything in the 3rd person.  "Sir, this recruit needs to use the head, Sir"  or "Sir, Recruit Smith needs to use the head, Sir"

Still sends chills up my spine 20 yrs later

[abdsp51]

This good be beneficial to us.  But there needs to be a solid base program first and foremost.  Without that it will fail.  Now as I wear both stripes and bars, I think there is potential here for success across the board.  But again there needs to be a clear cut base program first.  Right now to jumpstart only allow current or former NCOs into it until the bugs get workedvout.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Who would have thought it...someone besides me advocating a Warrant tier!

When I was in BMT many years ago, the first word out of your mouth was "sir" or "ma'am."  Don't repeat it after your statement, though...MTI's did NOT like what they called a "sir (or ma'am) sandwich."

AFTER BMT it is NOT the norm.  I always called NCO's by rank, Commissioned and Warrant Officers "sir, ma'am" or by rank (or by "Mr/Miss/Ms" for Warrant Officers).  I usually addressed CMSgt's as "Chief."

If I were to see my old MTI today (if he's still living) I would call him whatever level of Sergeant he attained.

My first CAP unit had an AFRES TSgt.  He was the "go to guy" on C&C's, and he told Cadets AND Seniors NOT to call a noncommissioned officer "Sir" unless you are in BASIC TRAINING.

The services that require that in Basic are the Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard (for the first couple of weeks).  I doubt it about the Navy, and my dad told me you never, EVER called an Army NCO "sir," in Basic or not.

[lordmonar]

As is typical with most thing USAFish......is that there is not consistency.

22 years in the USAF and I never had a problem with calling NCO's sir or ma'am.  I never corrected an airman who called me Sergeant nor one who called me Sir.

Got yelled at by a lot of other service's NCOs....but for the most part I just pressed on.

So....bottom line.....sir or ma'am are acceptable terms of respect to anyone.  If an NCO wishes to be addressed as Sergeant, or Senior (which is the new fad creeping into the USAF lately) then you correct them, respectfully (as the airman/cadet did not mean any disrespect) and press on.