NCO Program Launched

[Flying Pig]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

:clap:

Because you cant be that guy with 1LT bars on your collar?  You do realize these "NCOs" wont always be prior military?  But because they will have stripes they will suddenly become "gurus"?  Why cant a guru be a  Captain?

[DennisH]

Since I only noticed the memo about the NEW NCO program I decided to check here and see what type of reception if any that news generated. Considering the direction previous discussions about NCO Senior members went in other threads this one is about normal. I am not rushing out to buy Senior Master Sergeant stripes and I just received a joking e-mail from my Commander with the word "NO" in it . My beliefs about an NCO Corp in CAP really carry no wieght so what would be the point. I am happy to work with Cadet NCO's and develop their NCO skills in the short time that they wear the rank. If down the line I decide to request my stripes back it will be up to my commander to approve and that is in the distant future at best. Someone on here said it best when they said " Solution looking for a problem".

Hey Sir, just playing nice I am having fun with the Cadets, reminds me of time long ago


Hey Top!

Good to see you and hear you again!

[Papabird]

I see where you're going with that, and I kinda sorta get it. But.

I would argue that not all CAP "officers" are in fact only "single-track specialty officers." Operationally, I'm an MO (but a still-learning one...I have 24 actual MO missions so I've got a way to go) and a GTM1. My PD specialties are: ES, Cadet Programs and Command. As the CC, I also spend a significant amount of time engaged in Safety, PA, Logistics and Admin, even though I have staff officers assigned to those billets.

I'm more in favor of making the present grade system more meaningful, for both officer grades and NCO grades. Make officer promotions a little harder to get, make the "exemplary performance" standard the norm, and so forth. I'm neutral on the NCO thing, but I can see that it would make more sense if there were a larger pseudo-enlisted cadre to care for. To my mind it makes the MOST sense in a Cadet squadron, or a Composite squadron to help look after the cadet side. But again, I'm open to seeing how the idea winds up eventually floating out.

An argument that doesn't hold water for me is the one that says that we can't make it any harder for senior-member grade progression because "we're only volunteers." If it's too hard, then go volunteer in some other worthy area with different rules. No harm or shame in that. I spent more than a dozen years in a combined career-volunteer fire department in a pretty urban area, and their rules were that we (vollies) had to work/train/serve just like our career brothers and sisters. We were free to find other ways to serve if that didn't suit us.

I am not arguing that people should do more; I'm arguing only that those who want (or are only able) to do just a little then accept that, as a result, they don't get to be a Lt. Col. The thing that gets me more than any other single thing is when someone raises their hand, says, "Yes, count on me," and then doesn't deliver. When confronted with a broken promise, the reflex answer is, "Gee, we're only volunteers."

True, as I hold 4 Master, 1 Senior and 5 Tech ratings, I doubt I "qualify" as a "Warrant" either, but my "commission" paperwork...well, doesn't exist for CAP.   

I have played in the Pro/Vol world with a rural EMS and you are right, it's difficult (especially to keep up with the CEs). 

I am always disappointed at the "only volunteers"  sentiment.  If you don't want to do it right, don't do it!  But that may be why I feel a little guilty pinning on the OLCs.  I earned the CAP version, but it still doesn't feel 100% right, you know?

Just food for thought.

[Walkman]

...I'm neutral on the NCO thing, but I can see that it would make more sense if there were a larger pseudo-enlisted cadre to care for. To my mind it makes the MOST sense in a Cadet squadron, or a Composite squadron to help look after the cadet side. But again, I'm open to seeing how the idea winds up eventually floating out.

I can see the larger cadet and composite units being able to utilize the NCO corps more fully.

An argument that doesn't hold water for me is the one that says that we can't make it any harder for senior-member grade progression because "we're only volunteers." If it's too hard, then go volunteer in some other worthy area with different rules. No harm or shame in that. I spent more than a dozen years in a combined career-volunteer fire department in a pretty urban area, and their rules were that we (vollies) had to work/train/serve just like our career brothers and sisters. We were free to find other ways to serve if that didn't suit us.

I'm with you. I don't mind being a volunteer organization that holds people to certain standards if they want to join. Joining CAP isn't a right. Those that don't want to follow the rules, culture, and regs of the organization shouldn't be here. I like being challenged, having to work for my next promotion/PD rating/ES qual. I like taking care to ensure my uniform and grooming are correct. I like honoring our WWII heritage. Eclipse frequently mentions the "empty-shirts". That could be taken care of if we were not desperately taking every person that wandered in the door.

[lordmonar]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

:clap:

Because you cant be that guy with 1LT bars on your collar?  You do realize these "NCOs" wont always be prior military?  But because they will have stripes they will suddenly become "gurus"?  Why cant a guru be a  Captain?

Why can't he be a TSgt?

[Flying Pig]

My point exactly..... It doesn't matter.  It all comes down to what people think looks best on their uniform. It won't have anything to do what how things get done.   

[RogueLeader]

Why can't he be a TSgt?

That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
AF style Officer
Corp only Officer
AF style NCO
Corp only NCO

It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.

[DennisH]

Why can't he be a TSgt?

That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
AF style Officer
Corp only Officer
AF style NCO
Corp only NCO

It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.

I have to take exception to the comment about keeping former NCOs happy. Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years. If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period. Also if former NCO's from the sister services are more a problem than solution then what the hey, get together develop a course of action and ban prior service NCOs. All this moaning is getting old real fast.

[Eclipse]

If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period.

Done.  Thanks!

[NCRblues]

Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years.

That is simply a personal issue, and should have zero effect on how CAP conducts any form of business.

CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army aux or the Navy or the Corps. We follow the AF traditions, and in the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

I see this as becoming an issue with sister service NCO's coming in and demanding the "Army/navy/corps way of doing things" and that is unacceptable.

[DennisH]

And point proven, thanks. Apparently a long time ago us nasty NCOs must have polluted someone's cornflakes and now we are loathed. As I said earlier I had an issue in the beginning, I adjusted. I don't demand anything, I offer advice some taken, some not, I read the CAPR's, if i have a question or need clarification ia ask someone hat has been in CAP longer or cme here and look for an answer. I know I have some residual attitude but the one here is strong with the force. I guess I will go take my meds now.

[RogueLeader]

Why can't he be a TSgt?

That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
AF style Officer
Corp only Officer
AF style NCO
Corp only NCO

It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.

I have to take exception to the comment about keeping former NCOs happy. Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years. If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period. Also if former NCO's from the sister services are more a problem than solution then what the hey, get together develop a course of action and ban prior service NCOs. All this moaning is getting old real fast.

It wasn't pointed at you.  For the vast majority of NCOs that join CAP decide to progress in the Officer grades than be a NCO, so why would we need to ban all Prior service NCOs?  The issue is do we really need NCOs?  What specific role do they play that can't be done as officers? 

It has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.  I will accept that is true, but I would like to know how does what insignia is worn affect duty performance?

I truly understand that some prefer their former/current military grade, and want to continue that.

[NCRblues]

And point proven, thanks. Apparently a long time ago us nasty NCOs must have polluted someone's cornflakes and now we are loathed. As I said earlier I had an issue in the beginning, I adjusted. I don't demand anything, I offer advice some taken, some not, I read the CAPR's, if i have a question or need clarification ia ask someone hat has been in CAP longer or cme here and look for an answer. I know I have some residual attitude but the one here is strong with the force. I guess I will go take my meds now.

Point proven? What point?

I am a former AF NCO and I see no need to perpetuate the "NCO vs officer" politics that occur when some have stripes and some have the shiny's.

Limiting the pool of potential commanders, creating a "I'm just an NCO" attitude on top of the already ever prevalent "I'm just a volunteer" attitude and a myriad of other reasons is why I do not support even the initial concept of this idea.

As a staff officer on multiple CAP levels I have no time for the "I'm just a volunteer" tude and I will have even less tolerance for the "just an NCO" excuse when...not if...but when it shows it's ugly head. 

[DennisH]

Why can't he be a TSgt?

That would cause for a more radical class system what some say we have now.  If you believe that there already are two classes, now you have 4.
AF style Officer
Corp only Officer
AF style NCO
Corp only NCO

It is creating (or expanding) a class system that (to my mind) doesn't need to be there.  I understand that we currently have NCO's as a way to keep those (mostly) former NCO's happy that can't stand the thought of being an Officer.

I have to take exception to the comment about keeping former NCOs happy. Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years. If this whole having NCOs is such a big PITA then how about jut doing away with it period. Also if former NCO's from the sister services are more a problem than solution then what the hey, get together develop a course of action and ban prior service NCOs. All this moaning is getting old real fast.

It wasn't pointed at you.  For the vast majority of NCOs that join CAP decide to progress in the Officer grades than be a NCO, so why would we need to ban all Prior service NCOs?  The issue is do we really need NCOs?  What specific role do they play that can't be done as officers? 

It has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.  I will accept that is true, but I would like to know how does what insignia is worn affect duty performance?

I truly understand that some prefer their former/current military grade, and want to continue that.

Then I apologize, my point on baning former NCOs is all this elite, special group talk I see. I am still processing the CAP/Air Force  way since I have only been in CAP for a year. I have worked pretty close to the Air Force since my occupational specialty required that I work closely with The Air Mobility groups. I never had an issue working with any of the services and even after all my time in the Army I still can.
NCOs at least Army NCOs look at things differently but adjusting is also a requirement. I do know that I have to interest in being a commander in CAP but I will continue to serve my Commanders where I am needed.

[DennisH]

And point proven, thanks. Apparently a long time ago us nasty NCOs must have polluted someone's cornflakes and now we are loathed. As I said earlier I had an issue in the beginning, I adjusted. I don't demand anything, I offer advice some taken, some not, I read the CAPR's, if i have a question or need clarification ia ask someone hat has been in CAP longer or cme here and look for an answer. I know I have some residual attitude but the one here is strong with the force. I guess I will go take my meds now.

Point proven? What point?

I am a former AF NCO and I see no need to perpetuate the "NCO vs officer" politics that occur when some have stripes and some have the shiny's.

Limiting the pool of potential commanders, creating a "I'm just an NCO" attitude on top of the already ever prevalent "I'm just a volunteer" attitude and a myriad of other reasons is why I do not support even the initial concept of this idea.

As a staff officer on multiple CAP levels I have no time for the "I'm just a volunteer" tude and I will have even less tolerance for the "just an NCO" excuse when...not if...but when it shows it's ugly head.

My point being that with all this talk about special little clicks is showing that mentality is  already in place. I don't play that officer vs NCO BS other than good natured ribbing out of sight and sound of Cadets and mostly with prior service members. As for limiting the pool, from what it am seeing in the squadrons I am exposed to its a Hey You Position with a few honest vollunteers stepping up.
While some may not want to recognize the vollunteer nature of the organization it's is still there. It's much harder to influence members that can get overwhelmed and just bow out. I dont have beat this into the ground but so,etimes you get lucky and you get a Commander that can motivate and a tally lead, other times you get , well you all know.

[Fubar]

It has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.

When it was said, were any examples provided?

[RogueLeader]

It has been said that some duties can be done better as a NCO, but not as an Officer.

When it was said, were any examples provided?

This and a couple others in this thread.

They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

Are the stripes like a flash drive?

Not what you asked......you asked what could they do.

Can we do that with out stripes....sure we could.....can you command a squadron with out oak leaves or rail road tracks?  So you are building a straw man argument.

The question is.....could that job be done better by people wearing stripes?  I think yes.   It is a traditional role for the NCO's from when time began. 

I simply ask that you give it a chance instead of just automatically gainsaying it out the gate.

[Shuman 14]

in the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

Really? I never knew that... I learned something new today.

[PHall]

Speaking for myself I had a hard time originally being called Sir, it's a hard habit after serving as an NCO for 30plus years.

That is simply a personal issue, and should have zero effect on how CAP conducts any form of business.

CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army aux or the Navy or the Corps. We follow the AF traditions, and in the AF NCO's are called sir/ma'am.

I see this as becoming an issue with sister service NCO's coming in and demanding the "Army/navy/corps way of doing things" and that is unacceptable.

Really, Air Force NCO's are called sir/ma'am, really?
You wouldn't have a cite for that because I was never called sir except by accident. And that was because I was wearing a flight suit on an AETC base.

[SarDragon]

I saw it when I was in Misawa. But that was mostly spooks, and a few aviation folks in the F-16 units.

It was confusing, based on previous experience with the other services.