NCO Program Launched

[AirAux]

So the Wing Commander and National Commander would be WO4 or WO5 I would imagine?  If doing away with all professional appointments, I guess one should also do away with prior military grades and start with SMWOG??  I guess this would also do away with the NCO program.  hmmmmm.  Something to consider..  Nah....


And how about instead of SMWOG they could be WOC (Warrant Officer Candidate)??

[ColonelJack]

"That's just a reasonable question, especially for NCOs that've already spent money on them.  I figured by now it'd be the first 2 or 3 pages of the topic, then a page or so of uniforms once it had degraded.  Very strange.

It is interesting that there's 4 pages on a program that hasn't be outlined to the membership yet."

Isn't that how it's supposed to be done?  Come up with a program, put it into effect and then figure out the training and responsibilities it  ?

"We have to pass the bill to know what's in it!"

Jack

[Eclipse]

Or we could have "members" and "commanders".

Leave the PD badges and ribbons alone, they'll show what you've done, and the CC's badge would indicate the echelon.

Salute "commanders", say "Good Day" to everyone else.

Done.

[JC004]

I probably wouldn't be against doing away with current grades for everyone but cadets.  I think there are merits to the Coast Guard Auxiliary system too.  The concern I'd have with still having Captain, Lt Col, etc. there for commanders and command-types is I'd be concerned about doing anything that encouraged the Resume-Builders to get in command spots.  I've seen more than enough people who are only in CAP to build an impressive-sounding resume - who don't care about the mission or doing anything more than what's required to add another line to their resume. 

[Cliff_Chambliss]

So the Wing Commander and National Commander would be WO4 or WO5 I would imagine?  If doing away with all professional appointments, I guess one should also do away with prior military grades and start with SMWOG??  I guess this would also do away with the NCO program.  hmmmmm.  Something to consider..  Nah....


And how about instead of SMWOG they could be WOC (Warrant Officer Candidate)??

and your point would be? 
ABSOLUTELY.  I look around and see Former Field Artillery 06's, Aviation W3's & W5's.  An Armor E9, etc.  Other than basic military customs and traditions very few of the former skill set has application in the CAP.  Maybe an allowance (and a small one for former USAF personnel but not much of one). 
An argument that former Real Militray Officers and NCO's have a set of "people skills" well so do successful educators and business people.  If anything, real civilian managers have the edge because they have to develop real people skills for those below as well as above them in pay grade. 
I have nothing against former military being retired military myself, but a CAP unit is not a tank crew, gun crew, infantry squad, etc.   

[RogueLeader]

I probably wouldn't be against doing away with current grades for everyone but cadets.  I think there are merits to the Coast Guard Auxiliary system too.  The concern I'd have with still having Captain, Lt Col, etc. there for commanders and command-types is I'd be concerned about doing anything that encouraged the Resume-Builders to get in command spots.  I've seen more than enough people who are only in CAP to build an impressive-sounding resume - who don't care about the mission or doing anything more than what's required to add another line to their resume.

That's why Commanders, as well as those on review boards, need to take a critical look at those personnel who may be cutting it close on performance. 

[Panache]

So the Wing Commander and National Commander would be WO4 or WO5 I would imagine?

While serving in the command position as Wing Commander and National Commander, they would be Colonels and a Major General, respectively.  But when they're not actively in a command billet, their WO grade would be whatever they would be qualified for.  Being (blank) commander does not automatically confer WO grade.  One must earn that.

Essentially, WO grade is tied to the person, Command grade is tied to the position.

[vento]

Or we could have "members" and "commanders".

Leave the PD badges and ribbons alone, they'll show what you've done, and the CC's badge would indicate the echelon.

Salute "commanders", say "Good Day" to everyone else.

Done.

Too much good sense here. It is overwhelming for the CAP space time continuum. 

[RogueLeader]

The issue there is that it takes us away from our Heritage, and further from the Air Force.

I would like us go back to where there Grade Allotments, based on percentages, or numbers- whichever is lower. I've been told that prior to the mid 80's that they did this.

If we went back to this, and had to compete for the higher grade,  Then I think that the rank would have more meaning than what it does now.  We could also tie this into the NCO grade as well.

Promotion criteria would be based on PD level, competence, experience, well rounded-ness, staff duties, etc.

NCO's would be doers, ie the staff members.
Officers would be Commanders (CC/CDC/CDS) and Director Staff Postions

If, multiple hats are worn, highest grade wins.
Grade is permanent for successful tour of duty.

[Papabird]

An interesting point, Warrant Officers really seem to be more in-line with what we really do.  They can be pilots, they can run sub-units and they can be "grunts" actually doing the work.  And if we ever needed to really supplement the USAF, we could co-exist and not disrupt any power plays.  We would be outside the "normal" grade system.

Really, we are not commissioned officers (even in command) as we don't have that piece of paper from the US Congress, that makes us all "field" commissions, as we get it from inside the CAP organization. 

From Wikipedia:
"Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers, and while the ranks are authorized by Congress, each branch of the uniformed services selects, manages, and utilizes warrant officers in slightly different ways." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_States)

Fun to think of, but I doubt it would ever materialize.  Bummer.

[AirAux]

If we do the NCO program, would this be a good time to implement the fail three promotion boards and you are out scheme??   

[ProdigalJim]

An interesting point, Warrant Officers really seem to be more in-line with what we really do.  They can be pilots, they can run sub-units and they can be "grunts" actually doing the work.  And if we ever needed to really supplement the USAF, we could co-exist and not disrupt any power plays.  We would be outside the "normal" grade system.

Really, we are not commissioned officers (even in command) as we don't have that piece of paper from the US Congress, that makes us all "field" commissions, as we get it from inside the CAP organization. 

From Wikipedia:
"Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers, and while the ranks are authorized by Congress, each branch of the uniformed services selects, manages, and utilizes warrant officers in slightly different ways." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_States)

Fun to think of, but I doubt it would ever materialize.  Bummer.

I see where you're going with that, and I kinda sorta get it. But.

I would argue that not all CAP "officers" are in fact only "single-track specialty officers." Operationally, I'm an MO (but a still-learning one...I have 24 actual MO missions so I've got a way to go) and a GTM1. My PD specialties are: ES, Cadet Programs and Command. As the CC, I also spend a significant amount of time engaged in Safety, PA, Logistics and Admin, even though I have staff officers assigned to those billets.

I'm more in favor of making the present grade system more meaningful, for both officer grades and NCO grades. Make officer promotions a little harder to get, make the "exemplary performance" standard the norm, and so forth. I'm neutral on the NCO thing, but I can see that it would make more sense if there were a larger pseudo-enlisted cadre to care for. To my mind it makes the MOST sense in a Cadet squadron, or a Composite squadron to help look after the cadet side. But again, I'm open to seeing how the idea winds up eventually floating out.

An argument that doesn't hold water for me is the one that says that we can't make it any harder for senior-member grade progression because "we're only volunteers." If it's too hard, then go volunteer in some other worthy area with different rules. No harm or shame in that. I spent more than a dozen years in a combined career-volunteer fire department in a pretty urban area, and their rules were that we (vollies) had to work/train/serve just like our career brothers and sisters. We were free to find other ways to serve if that didn't suit us.

I am not arguing that people should do more; I'm arguing only that those who want (or are only able) to do just a little then accept that, as a result, they don't get to be a Lt. Col. The thing that gets me more than any other single thing is when someone raises their hand, says, "Yes, count on me," and then doesn't deliver. When confronted with a broken promise, the reflex answer is, "Gee, we're only volunteers."

[Grumpy]

What they could do is bring everybody in at E-1 and earn their 3, 5, 7 and 9 levels like we did in the AF in the old 50-23 days and then if they wanted to be command staff go in to the officer training route.

It would take longer but would receive a lot more training.  Let me get my vest before you reply.

Just a thought and no mention of 39-1.

[PHall]

And I still say this is a solution looking for a problem.

[Alaric]

I probably wouldn't be against doing away with current grades for everyone but cadets.  I think there are merits to the Coast Guard Auxiliary system too.  The concern I'd have with still having Captain, Lt Col, etc. there for commanders and command-types is I'd be concerned about doing anything that encouraged the Resume-Builders to get in command spots.  I've seen more than enough people who are only in CAP to build an impressive-sounding resume - who don't care about the mission or doing anything more than what's required to add another line to their resume.

I've never heard of a senior member using CAP to build their resume.  In my experience so few people know what CAP is, and even fewer care about what you do as a volunteer how would that even work?

[TarRiverRat]

Here is what I found concerning Enlisted grade for C.A.P. during WWII:

CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM INSIGNIA SINCE 1941

C.A.P. Enlisted Grade Insignia 1942-1944 page 29

Grade            Position

Master Sergeant      Mechanic A&E
First Sergeant      Squadron First Sergeant
Technical Sergeant      Pilot / Mechanic A or E/Radio Operator
Staff Sergeant      Observer
Sergeant         Photographer
Corporal         Clerk
Private First Class      Stenographer
Private         All other Personnel

[Shuman 14]

Since I only noticed the memo about the NEW NCO program I decided to check here and see what type of reception if any that news generated. Considering the direction previous discussions about NCO Senior members went in other threads this one is about normal. I am not rushing out to buy Senior Master Sergeant stripes and I just received a joking e-mail from my Commander with the word "NO" in it . My beliefs about an NCO Corp in CAP really carry no wieght so what would be the point. I am happy to work with Cadet NCO's and develop their NCO skills in the short time that they wear the rank. If down the line I decide to request my stripes back it will be up to my commander to approve and that is in the distant future at best. Someone on here said it best when they said " Solution looking for a problem".

Hey Top!

Good to see you and hear you again!

[Shuman 14]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

:clap:

[SarDragon]

Here is what I found concerning Enlisted grade for C.A.P. during WWII:

CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM INSIGNIA SINCE 1941

C.A.P. Enlisted Grade Insignia 1942-1944 page 29

Grade            Position

Master Sergeant      Mechanic A&E
First Sergeant      Squadron First Sergeant
Technical Sergeant      Pilot / Mechanic A or E/Radio Operator
Staff Sergeant      Observer
Sergeant         Photographer
Corporal         Clerk
Private First Class      Stenographer
Private         All other Personnel

This is kool, but our current org chart isn't set up for this billet structure, and it doesn't seem to be set up for promotions.

[TarRiverRat]

The one thing I did not see listed for assignments was that of Guard for the enlisted.  I have seen pics of privates to NCOs on guard duty with rifles.  May not have been a particular assignment but was for every enlisted to handle instead.  As far as promotions, they could promote up the line.  Some NCOs were promoted to Flight Officers and up to the Officer rank.  Most Officer grades that I have seen was 2d Lts during the war.  Not sure when it started for someone coming into CAP to be promoted to 2d Lt within 6 months of joining.  It did not happen during WWII.  You would have seen more enlisted during that time and Officer grade was usually reserved for the Pilots and crew and Command, but you still has NCOs that were Pilots and Observers as well.