NCO Program Launched

[Майор Хаткевич]

Everyone is giving it a chance. We will have to. But the big question is a chance for what? If it said it was an augmentation of the current NCOs to give them a chance to promote within CAP, fine. But this announcement talked about letting in non NCOs become such, and the point there then becomes to what end?

[lordmonar]

They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

Are the stripes like a flash drive?

Not what you asked......you asked what could they do.

Can we do that with out stripes....sure we could.....can you command a squadron with out oak leaves or rail road tracks?  So you are building a straw man argument.

The question is.....could that job be done better by people wearing stripes?  I think yes.   It is a traditional role for the NCO's from when time began. 

I simply ask that you give it a chance instead of just automatically gainsaying it out the gate.

[lordmonar]

Everyone is giving it a chance. We will have to. But the big question is a chance for what? If it said it was an augmentation of the current NCOs to give them a chance to promote within CAP, fine. But this announcement talked about letting in non NCOs become such, and the point there then becomes to what end?

Yes....in order for it not to just be another clique in CAP it has to be opened for all.   Ergo...at some point....there will be a way to bring in non-prior service member into the NCO corps.  Where will it end?  Hopefully it will end with a strong, professional, motivated Air Force Auxiliary ready to complete Missions for America.   If for one minute I thought that it would not end there....I would not be supporting this initiative at all.

[Eclipse]

They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

Are the stripes like a flash drive?

Not what you asked......you asked what could they do.

Can we do that with out stripes....sure we could.....can you command a squadron with out oak leaves or rail road tracks?  So you are building a straw man argument.

The question is.....could that job be done better by people wearing stripes?  I think yes.   It is a traditional role for the NCO's from when time began. 

It's a traditional role in the MILITARY.  1/2 the members of CAP don't even wear a military-style uniform, with probably 25+% owning nothing but a flight suit
or the golf shirt.

You make the assertion NCOs have a role, and since what you're advocating is the creation of an entire new PD track, the "what they can do" has to be specific
special skills that only NCOs have and that can only be done if they are allowed the traditional NCO role and lane.

Anything else is silly.

NCOs may well be the backbone of the military, no one will argue that, but they have never, ever, never been the backbone of CAP.
No by membership numbers and not by role.

The rhetorical backbone of CAP are the pilots, where the majority of the attention, money, and mission focus is.  At least in terms
of what is important to NHQ in regards to equipment and inspections.

The actual backbone of CAP, like it or not, are the non-military civilian members doing the best they can to get things done with no money,
little support, and figure it out as they go along" experience.

[NCRblues]

As a veteran of the USAF and proud former NCO, I question the need for this program.

I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

Let's say the member attends normal meeting times but due to work can't spend much time outside the Tuesday night meetings. How do you take joe from civilian to SSGT for the 8 or so hours he will be in contact with you.

Now, I know the argument will be that we do the same thing with officers, but if like above that "officer" never attends anything but Tuesday night meetings they will forever be a 2nd lt.

Are we now expected to be ok with someone joining and wanting to be an NCO but never moving up? I guess we will because we are expected to do the same for the "officers".

I just struggle to see any good coming from random person walking in off the streets to become the local squadrons "keeper of all things military" like was said earlier.

Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

[Jaison009]

I would agree with that Bill but not sure it will happen. I come from the same world as you (same part of the state even ) and definitely understand ops being in different track than command. I also know when our customers see officer rank they have a basic expectation of knowledge and skill (fire, law enforcement, and EMS all use officer rank and there is an expectation of SME). EM doesn't typically have ranks; however, working with all of the other areas they have expectations of what a LT, CAPT, MAJ, and above should be able to do and generally authority. With WOs it would probably be misunderstood and mistaken internally and externally (plus more uniform costs). At least with SMWOG, others would know who are worker bees and who are the SMEs or command. For my real job with the American Red Cross I wear nothing different or that designates me "in charge"; however, through painstaking hours of relationship building my partner agencies know who I am and where I am within the structure. If I show up as 1LT Scott of the local CAP unit and want to talk ES or DR that is fine as they know me for both hats. If I show up 1LT Scott on a search and there are 10 other 1LTs and CAPTs in IC positions that they are not familiar with, it could be a problem. At least SMWOG would differentiate between those working and those leading.   

Maybe we all just stay SMWOG and have officer grades for command positions then. This would solve "expectations" and most of us would do the job anyway.

I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

WO1=2LT
WO2=1LT
WO3=CAPT
CWO=MAJ

LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

have the PD for warrants be based on ops quals/specialty track levels
PD for officers, same as it is now.

If you want to change between roles, you can but must complete the corresponding PD

Just a thought.

Full disclosure, I am an ops guy and think the WO description better corresponds to my actual role

[Luis R. Ramos]

I also see a potential problem, cause for conflict.

As has been stated,in the military model, the officer is "in charge" while the NCOs are the actual take-charge.

Civilians who are not used to this model will question the NCOs who are following this model. Some civilians are more open-minded and will "adjust" to the "attitude adjustment" of the NCO. Others are more strong-willed and will not want their "attitude adjustment."

I am not sure this potential problem has been addressed.

Flyer

[Grumpy]

"That's just a reasonable question, especially for NCOs that've already spent money on them.  I figured by now it'd be the first 2 or 3 pages of the topic, then a page or so of uniforms once it had degraded.  Very strange.

It is interesting that there's 4 pages on a program that hasn't be outlined to the membership yet."

Isn't that how it's supposed to be done?  Come up with a program, put it into effect and then figure out the training and responsibilities it  ?

[Flying Pig]

So here is a question that isn't one sided.   I'm a former CAP Captain, former Sgt E5.  If I were to rejoin under the NCO program, what enlisted rank would I be?  Because surely as a former captain, 20yrs time in service, squadron commander, mission/CD pilot, ES and CP technician I must rate higher than CAP E5?

[sarmed1]

......

I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

...

Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

Have you ever been in the Guard or the Reserves.  They do this exact thing.  No prior AD time  other than Initial Entry.  The only plus is they have more time as an "underling" than CAP has. (min usually 3-4 years until promotable to E-5) but after basic and tech school that is only based on 16 hours a month,  mostly distance learning for actual "training" and otherwise the "mentorship" of the BTDT Senior NCO's and general OJT.....not that far of a stretch from the regular CAP member

mk

[AirAux]

Don't forget the 80 hour two weeks training each year on top of the weekend drills.  Wait, I smell something coming...  Wait for it....  It's the Iowa model of revamping everything you think you know about CAP...  OMG, I have stepped into a timewarp back to say 5-10 years ago..  Someone needs to tell Carr to get out of the wayback machine.. 

[Flying Pig]

......

I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

...

Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

Have you ever been in the Guard or the Reserves.  They do this exact thing.  No prior AD time  other than Initial Entry.  The only plus is they have more time as an "underling" than CAP has. (min usually 3-4 years until promotable to E-5) but after basic and tech school that is only based on 16 hours a month,  mostly distance learning for actual "training" and otherwise the "mentorship" of the BTDT Senior NCO's and general OJT.....not that far of a stretch from the regular CAP member

mk

But isnt that only for specialized jobs?  I looked into that to be a Criminal Investigator.  I believe its for jobs that require significat levels of civilian certs.  When I looked it Army Guard CID it was the same. You had to be a fully sworn and experienced CA LEO to apply.  So it wasnt necessarily just anyone off the street.

Do they do this with anyone?

[flyboy53]

......

I would like to know lordmonar how you believe you can take joe blow off the streets (with no prior military experience) and teach them the "nco way" or the traditional role of the NCO.

...

Becoming an NCO in the military takes a lot of work, training and dedication. Do I see those same standards going to be applied to CAPs NCOs...no.

Have you ever been in the Guard or the Reserves.  They do this exact thing.  No prior AD time  other than Initial Entry.  The only plus is they have more time as an "underling" than CAP has. (min usually 3-4 years until promotable to E-5) but after basic and tech school that is only based on 16 hours a month,  mostly distance learning for actual "training" and otherwise the "mentorship" of the BTDT Senior NCO's and general OJT.....not that far of a stretch from the regular CAP member

mk

But isnt that only for specialized jobs?  I looked into that to be a Criminal Investigator.  I believe its for jobs that require significat levels of civilian certs.  When I looked it Army Guard CID it was the same. You had to be a fully sworn and experienced CA LEO to apply.  So it wasnt necessarily just anyone off the street.

Do they do this with anyone?

No. I don't think there will be any CAP enlisted types applying for things like CID or OSI.

First, a lot of ANG and AFRES specialty training involves a lot of AF Distance Learning Courses. It's the same for PME. Course completion (especially the PME) counted whether you completed it in-residence or via correspondence. The most major difference was that in-residence PME resulted in a ribbon while correspondence did not.

The big difference between ANG/AFRES and Regular Air Force is that enlisted people test for promotion on active duty in addition to the PME, skill level upgrade, fitness and time in grade requirements. On the Reserve/Guard side, enlisted types complete the necessary skill level upgrade, PME either in residence or by correspondence and have to have a slot to be promoted into in addition to TIG, skill level upgrade, PME and fitness.

I suspect that what the CAP NCO program will contain are CAP-related specialties, combined with AF enlisted PME. At last check, CAP members can still take certain career development courses and the enlisted PME.

Something else that I wonder that hasn't been addressed in this string is whether there will be some sort of table or organization limiting certain ranks to specific unit echelons -- like only senior NCOs at group, wing or region.

[Larry Mangum]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

I am one of those that are very skeptical about a need for a  CAP NCO track, however, I think that Patrick's answer is a start in the right direction.  I think we need more details before we decide rather it will solve any issues for CAP or not.  We certainly can use mentors for junior officer's.

[SARDOC]

There have been many different comments about this proposed program...some asking if an NCO program is really required in the Civil Air Patrol Context.  I think many have valid points in the fact that NCO's can perform other functions in CAP regardless of their identified grade.

Those same arguments that hold for not needing an NCO program lead me to think that we don't need any rank structure Officer or enlisted.

If the Purpose of Rank in the Civil Air Patrol doesn't actually accompany with it any actual expressed authority than why do we have it?  Most common assumptions is that rank implies authority.  However, the Civil Air Patrol ranks only express the members progress through the Professional Development program. 

As a tool for recognizing a member's progress we have a few options provided us in a volunteer organization including awards and even promotions.  Although there are those of us that don't really care for the promotion or awards and are just happy performing the mission that our organization supports.

We do have those in our midst who believe that ranks and ribbons are important tools to encourage recruiting and retention.  I think that if establishing an NCO program allows us to authorize more benchmarks to recognize our members at shorter intervals in recognition of their service than we should do that by all means.

I'm curious to read the policy when it's published to see how it's going to be implemented.  If we are going to reestablish an NCO track we might as well expand to include all enlisted ranks and allow our members to work and develop into becoming an NCO as opposed to using as an entry level position.

[Panache]

I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

WO1=2LT
WO2=1LT
WO3=CAPT
CWO=MAJ

LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

+1

Make the rank and file members Warrant Officers, with your WO grade directly tied to your technical skill.  "Commissioned" ranks are only for command personnel or those training for command (i.e. 2nd Lieutenants) or command staff.

SMWOG = Starting point.

WO1 = 9 months in-service as SMWOG.

WO2 = Technician ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

WO3 = Senior ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

WO4 = Master ranking in a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

CW5 = 1x Master ranking, 1x Senior ranking (?) in another, plus time-in-grade.

If you see somebody walking around with WO4 or CW5 insignia, you could be sure that they're highly skilled and accomplished in at least one job/skill.  And if you see somebody walking around with railroad tracks or oak leaves, that should be an indication that they're in charge or command of something at the present time.

WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

As the "proposed" NCO program appears to me right now, is nothing but a parallel track for members to progress upon.  In reality, stripes and bars/leaves will mean the exact same thing.

[Private Investigator]

If you see somebody walking around with WO4 or CW5 insignia, you could be sure that they're highly skilled and accomplished in at least one job/skill.  And if you see somebody walking around with railroad tracks or oak leaves, that should be an indication that they're in charge or command of something at the present time.

WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

Actually a pretty good ideal. So as a Colonel and former Wing Commander, will revert to CWO-6? That would be what I disagree too. Also a Lt Col retiree from active duty will start as a WO-1? (actually not a bad ideal either)

I do not think the majority of our membership will go along with this proposal. 

[Panache]

WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

Actually a pretty good ideal. So as a Colonel and former Wing Commander, will revert to CWO-6? That would be what I disagree too. Also a Lt Col retiree from active duty will start as a WO-1? (actually not a bad ideal either)

No, the Colonel and Wing Commander will revert to whatever Warrant Officer grade he had earned before or was eligible for.  This will help mitigate the phenomena of a Colonel serving coffee and donuts at a meeting while a Captain is in command.

And, yes, if a active duty Lt. Colonel retires, he would start at WO1 unless he has a occupational waiver to a higher grade (which, being a former O5, one would assume he would.)

Basically, the WO grades show job performance/technical skill, and the Officer grades show current command position.

[Panache]

Just to clarify a couple of points on my crazy scheme...

There will be no direct appointments to "command" grades.  Period.

Direct appointments to Warrant Officer grades is possible for those with particular skills or educational backgrounds.  Pilots can be appointed to WO1, those with appropriate four and six-year degrees (Registered Nurses, etc.) will be eligible for appointments to WO2. Those holding doctorates or equivalents (Lawyers, Doctors, etc.) will be eligible for appoints to WO3.  Direct appointments can not be promoted until meeting the technical skill requirements for the next higher grade.

Flight Officers, Technical Flight Officers, and Senior Flight Officers would be those Warrant Officer grades for senior members between the ages of 18 and 21.  Upon reaching their 21st birthday, their grade will be converted to the equivalent WO rank. (FO to WO1, TFO to WO2, SFO to WO3.) 

2nd Lieutenant will be for command-track training, as well as some wing staff positions. 1st Lieutenant will be for the two squadron deputy commanders (Seniors and Cadets), as well as some higher-level wing staff positions.  Captains will be Squadron commanders, as well as the Group Vice-Commander.  And so forth, up the chain.

While it would probably require a pretty drastic attitude shift in CAP, reverting to the Warrant Officer grades should not be seen as a bad thing or a demotion.  Indeed, it will be possible to earn promotion in the Warrant Officer grades while serving in a Command position, if you meet the requirements.  In the RealMilitary™, at least in the Army, CW4 and CW5's are seen as a force to be reckoned with, and are highly respected.  More so than anybody wearing less an eagle or a star on their collar.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

WO1=2LT
WO2=1LT
WO3=CAPT
CWO=MAJ

LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

+1

Make the rank and file members Warrant Officers, with your WO grade directly tied to your technical skill.  "Commissioned" ranks are only for command personnel or those training for command (i.e. 2nd Lieutenants) or command staff.

SMWOG = Starting point.

WO1 = 9 months in-service as SMWOG.

WO2 = Technician ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

WO3 = Senior ranking on a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

WO4 = Master ranking in a staff specialty, plus time-in-grade.

CW5 = 1x Master ranking, 1x Senior ranking (?) in another, plus time-in-grade.

If you see somebody walking around with WO4 or CW5 insignia, you could be sure that they're highly skilled and accomplished in at least one job/skill.  And if you see somebody walking around with railroad tracks or oak leaves, that should be an indication that they're in charge or command of something at the present time.

WO grade earned will be permanent, and when not serving in a command position, you will "revert" to it.  Plus, as the AF doesn't use WO ranks, this has the bonus of being "CAP-distinctive".

As the "proposed" NCO program appears to me right now, is nothing but a parallel track for members to progress upon.  In reality, stripes and bars/leaves will mean the exact same thing.

Not a bad idea but I would suggest:
SMWOG:  Starting point:
Level 1 Completion:  WO1
Level 2 Completion:  CWO2
Level 3 Completion:  CWO3
Level 4 Completion:  CWO4
Level 5 Completion:  CWO5

eliminate all officer ranks.
So, "Professional appointments?  They go away.  If a member is not fully qualified to exercise the rank they don't get to wear it.
Since the USAF does not use the WO Rank, this become CAP Distinctive.