NCO Program Launched

[Eclipse]

Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??

There are remnants of that initiative still in place today, not to mention the "results" which can still be found on this message board.

[cap235629]

Maybe we all just stay SMWOG and have officer grades for command positions then. This would solve "expectations" and most of us would do the job anyway.

I would rather see a parralel track of warrant officers/officers.  specialists vs staff/command slot  Your rank would be dictated by your function:

WO1=2LT
WO2=1LT
WO3=CAPT
CWO=MAJ

LT COL AND UP STAFF/COMMAND ONLY

If you want command/staff assignments you go officer.  If you want to be a "subject matter expert/operations you go warrant.

have the PD for warrants be based on ops quals/specialty track levels
PD for officers, same as it is now.

If you want to change between roles, you can but must complete the corresponding PD

Just a thought.

Full disclosure, I am an ops guy and think the WO description better corresponds to my actual role

[Storm Chaser]

How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

Not a single day, however, in my Squadron, Cheyenne Composite Squadron, a vast majority (9 out of 13) of my senior members are Active Duty Air Force or Active Air National Guard.  One (1st LT) happened to be the Commander over another (SSgt) on active duty.  He obviously wasn't the Squadron Commander in the AF, but he was still in command of that section.

So, in other words, your knowledge of the Air Force is based on your interpretation of the experiences of 9 other people. No offense, but as someone who >IS< in the Air Force, I am telling you that the command structure in the Air Force is quite different from that of CAP.

Being in command [charge] is >NOT< the same as being in charge [command]. Most flight commanders in the Air Force are more akin to supervisors than actual unit commanders. And even so, while the 1st Lt may be technically in charge, I guarantee than in most cases it is the SNCO who is really running the shop, section or flight.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, I wonder just how much leeway commanders really might have to "nullify" this program by just not appointing anyone to NCO grade.  They certainly aren't required to promote people based on past military officer rank, "mission skills", etc. although it is the general practice to do so. 

[lordmonar]

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.

Beyond that the lack of anyway of promoting the NCO's we already have?  Beyond the lack that we may not be recruiting any NCO's due to the lack of a promotion program?  Beyond that members choose to go the officer route because there in no NCO progression?

There.....that is a problem. 
We have an announcement for a program that is going to address at least these "problems".

Are they in CAP to be NCOs or to be in CAP?

They are NCOs in CAP.    This is Status Quo.....which is the starting point of any "problem".

Are you suggesting that NCOs in CAP is a problem in and of itself?

[Eclipse]

Being in command is >NOT< the same as being in charge.

The fact that many commanders are >not< in charge is frequently indicated as a serious problem for CAP.

[RogueLeader]

So, in other words, your knowledge of the Air Force is based on your interpretation of the experiences of 9 other people.

No.  I am only relaying exactly as has been told to me.  They live it, I don't; there is nothing for me to interpret. 

No offense, but as someone who >IS< in the Air Force, I am telling you that the command structure in the Air Force is quite different from that of CAP.

Completely agree.

[lordmonar]

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

You keep saying that, but we know better.

Implemented in the standard military model, this is unnecessary and will not work, but brings with it significant risk to the
existing cadre with zero evidence it will increase membership.  We already know it won't since there was never any
barrier to entrance to NCOs before.

Implemented in the typical CAP "all smoke, no fire" implementation of the grade structure, this already exists at the only level it ever can.

Military NCOs have no more, or less, experience or ability then anyone else in a CAP context to serve as members, nor any innate
capabilities in regards to what is actually our mission, that being CP, AE, & ES.  Many can be and are amazing assets because of their MOS
which has no specific connection to their grade in any way which is different from officers or the civilian population.

Anyone kidding themselves into believing that by virtue of their stripes, NCOs can lead or train cadets "better" then officers or
the average civilian parent doesn't understand the question, nor have they listened to all the inexperience NCOs on this board alone,
let alone other areas, who are going to "fix" CAP with their NCO force powers, only to find CAP doesn't need fixing in any way their
light saber can specifically help (not that CAP doesn't need a lot of fixing).

To make the statement that "NCOs are the backbone of the military" in the context of implementing such a structures in an organization that doesn't have one,
implies both that the organization as it stands doesn't have a backbone, which is wholly insulting to the people doing the real work today,
and that it would benefit from one, when at the same time the only recruiting rhetoric out of NHQ is "more pilots".

It's DOA before the regs is published.

Which brings us around to why this was announced before the regs was published.

So....like I said....you have pre-judged the program before you have even seen it.
Your assumptions are the only ones that count......so therefore any opinion or effort not conforming to your assumptions is DOA....even before the regs are written.

Thanks for your input.   

[Eclipse]

They are NCOs in CAP.    This is Status Quo.....which is the starting point of any "problem".

Are you suggesting that NCOs in CAP is a problem in and of itself?

You need to be more clear in the question.

Yes, there are members who are past or present military NCOs who have chosen to wear their stripes.

Yes there are a lot of members who are military NCOs - most not wearing their stripes.

That doesn't make the CAP NCOs in any meaningful way.

The question is important because as has been said time and again, we need military NCOs in CAP.  There's just no viable
NCO role in CAP. 

One could ask the same question about generals, who don't get commensurate grade, nor a way to promote within CAP, yet they
don't seem to have an issue serving as Lt Cols or below.

[Eclipse]

Your assumptions are the only ones that count......so therefore any opinion or effort not conforming to your assumptions is DOA....

Thanks man!  Your insight and judge of character are first rate.

[lordmonar]

Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..

Define hairbrained?  Also please enlighten me on what program you have seen that you can make said judgment?

Also....just because HSNBN supported the idea does not mean it was intrinsically bad.  Pineda had a lot of good ideas....the Corporate Uniform was not really a bad idea in concept.....in execution it was a disaster...but the concept was not bad.

See a need, fill a need.   The need is "there is no way for CAP NCOs to progress in rank"   We are looking for a way to fix that need.

[Eclipse]

Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..

Define hairbrained? 

Appointing someone with zero CAP experience and knowledge, serving in a wing that was not following the normal CAP model, to
a non-existent position and then allowing him to self-announce his appointment.

I'd say that qualifies.

[lordmonar]

They are NCOs in CAP.    This is Status Quo.....which is the starting point of any "problem".

Are you suggesting that NCOs in CAP is a problem in and of itself?

You need to be more clear in the question.

Yes, there are members who are past or present military NCOs who have chosen to wear their stripes.

Yes there are a lot of members who are military NCOs - most not wearing their stripes.

That doesn't make the CAP NCOs in any meaningful way.

The question is important because as has been said time and again, we need military NCOs in CAP.  There's just no viable
NCO role in CAP. 

One could ask the same question about generals, who don't get commensurate grade, nor a way to promote within CAP, yet they
don't seem to have an issue serving as Lt Cols or below.

So......again are you suggesting that CAP NCOs.....are a problem?   They exist today, right now, with no way to promote.....this announced program is going to give them a way to promote.   What is wrong with that.  How is it DOA.  Who has said anything beyond that...that is anything but speculation?

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.  If we give it a chance to even get out the door.

[Eclipse]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That was not quite how the announcement put it.

[lordmonar]

Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..

Define hairbrained? 

Appointing someone with zero CAP experience and knowledge, serving in a wing that was not following the normal CAP model, to
a non-existent position and then allowing him to self-announce his appointment.

I'd say that qualifies.

Chief Todd?   I think you are stuck in the past.

[lordmonar]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

[Eclipse]

They can't do that now?  Without stripes? 

Are the stripes like a flash drive?

[Майор Хаткевич]

As for a role for NCOs in CAP.....maybe....just maybe we might find one.

Name one.

We've asked like eleventy-twelveteen times and no one has had a single reasonable answer that works in the CAP model.

How about......CAP NCOs will be the keepers of military traditions and training?  They will be the uniform police, the customers and courtesy gurus, and the drill and ceremonies experts.  They will take up the role to train all CAP members how to wear their uniforms, salute, call people sir, and shake take salute.

There.....One role that CAP does need.   Anymore questions?

We had an army SFC wearing Lt bars do just fine as a Leadership Officer. I'm doing OK in this regard as the current leadership officer after being a cadet.

[lordmonar]

That was not quite how the announcement put it.

Like the PAO types have never made a mistake before?

Bottom line is that as of right now......there is no program.  They are starting the first steps to getting one started.  They started by first asking the USAF for permission to pursue this program.

That is where we are today.

Yes CAP sucks on getting the information out.   We all know that.  All I am asking is to keep and open mind and not to poison the waters before we get a chance to get this program out the door.

If the program sucks....if it causes more problems then it is worth....if it fails miserabley......so be it.   But be honest and give it a chance.