NCO Program Launched

[DennisH]

Since I only noticed the memo about the NEW NCO program I decided to check here and see what type of reception if any that news generated. Considering the direction previous discussions about NCO Senior members went in other threads this one is about normal. I am not rushing out to buy Senior Master Sergeant stripes and I just received a joking e-mail from my Commander with the word "NO" in it . My beliefs about an NCO Corp in CAP really carry no wieght so what would be the point. I am happy to work with Cadet NCO's and develop their NCO skills in the short time that they wear the rank. If down the line I decide to request my stripes back it will be up to my commander to approve and that is in the distant future at best. Someone on here said it best when they said " Solution looking for a problem".

[tkelley004]

But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO"

How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

The differences are too many to list! but here are a few, First try getting a commission with a degree in "left handed basket weaving" Sorry, ROTC and OTS are only taking folks with hard science degrees and you fight for a spot (with some ROTC grads being told, sorry no room on active duty, here is your reserve commission) Next a commission from the POTUS, and a selection process, required schooling, and I could go on and on, but the real reason is limits, you can't walk off the street, sign a few forms, take a mostly on-line course you can't fail, wait a few months (or no time at all if you have a private pilot license, I have gotten  new members appointed to 2Lt in just under 2 months) and become a USAF/USA/USN/USMC/USCG officer.

And speaking of limits, E8 and E9 are limited to the top 3% of the enlisted corps, any limits for CAP? or will we have as many "Chiefs" as we do Lt Cols? I fail to understand why announce a program without the regulation covering it out either before the "public" announcement or within a day or two.

Without a different officer program, the NCO program is what others have said "a solution in search of a problem"

[Eclipse]

Since all promotion and grade is "command prerogative" it might be interesting to see the reaction when the first one is denied, deferred, or reduced.

It would be fully within the authority of a given commander to simply not feel NCO's are necessary in his unit and just not appoint any.

CAP grade is not "member's discretion" beyond choosing to leave the organization.

[lordmonar]

That's a lot of extrapolation.

Either it doesn't matter.......or it does.

Well, which one is it?  I think Ive articulate pretty well why is doesn't matter.  Im waiting for someone, anyone, or even NHQ to explain why it does matter.

Well rank either matters....in which case we need to see how this proposed NCO program is going to affect CAP and its operations.....or rank does not matter in which case it just does not matter and the NCO program is no different then the one that exists now.

My main point is that we are all operating right now in an information vacuum.   No one, today, right now, is asking or telling anyone to do anything differently.   The announcement was that NHQ is working with the USAF in launching a new program.   The only information, right now, is that we are getting CAP specific stripes, and that there will be a process for CAP NCOs to promote.   That is all, right now.

Give it time.....let's see what NHQ is actually proposing and see what is going to happen before we automatically say "this is just BS".

Let's maybe take two seconds and see what we can make CAP in the future.

One complaint is that it is too easy to be an officer in CAP.    Maybe, Maybe.....and this is just pure speculation, this is step one in changing that.   If you want to make it harder to be CAP officer......well you got to have a system for the enlisted members before you change the system for the officers.

All I ask is to keep asking the questions about how this will affect CAP, but keep and open mind and don't automatically poo poo it as simply a uniform change or just an ego thing for NCOs.

[lordmonar]

But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO"

How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

The differences are too many to list! but here are a few, First try getting a commission with a degree in "left handed basket weaving" Sorry, ROTC and OTS are only taking folks with hard science degrees and you fight for a spot (with some ROTC grads being told, sorry no room on active duty, here is your reserve commission) Next a commission from the POTUS, and a selection process, required schooling, and I could go on and on, but the real reason is limits, you can't walk off the street, sign a few forms, take a mostly on-line course you can't fail, wait a few months (or no time at all if you have a private pilot license, I have gotten  new members appointed to 2Lt in just under 2 months) and become a USAF/USA/USN/USMC/USCG officer.

And speaking of limits, E8 and E9 are limited to the top 3% of the enlisted corps, any limits for CAP? or will we have as many "Chiefs" as we do Lt Cols? I fail to understand why announce a program without the regulation covering it out either before the "public" announcement or within a day or two.

Without a different officer program, the NCO program is what others have said "a solution in search of a problem"

Tim, you took my comments out of context and started comparing CAP with AD USAF.

The Comment was a CAP SNCO being commanded by some CAP officer with little experience.
How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.   The SNCO will do their job, mentor their junior officers just like we do on AD.  We will call them sir and salute them and carry on and get the mission done.

 

[Eclipse]

^ That's fine...

...however...

...in the Grande Scheme of the NCO conversation, no one has come up with a single legitimate or supportable premise for the idea.

We all know this isn't going to open an recruiting markets that aren't already open, flood our doors with "huddled masses yearning to breath stripes",
nor change the over all mission.

All we ever hear is people looking to disavow responsibility and staff work in favor of being an NCO - not a single thing that would actually
improve CAP, work in a non-caste volunteer paradigm, or make any of this worth the expense of even the cost of the press release.

So, you know, there's that.

[lordmonar]

^ That's fine...

...however...

...in the Grande Scheme of the NCO conversation, no one has come up with a single legitimate or supportable premise for the idea.

We all know this isn't going to open an recruiting markets that aren't already open, flood our doors with "huddled masses yearning to breath stripes",
nor change the over all mission.

All we ever hear is people looking to disavow responsibility and staff work in favor of being an NCO - not a single thing that would actually
improve CAP, work in a non-caste volunteer paradigm, or make any of this worth the expense of even the cost of the press release.

So, you know, there's that.

Yes......no one has said......so why judge something you know nothing about. 

[Storm Chaser]

How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

[JeffDG]

...in the Grande Scheme of the NCO conversation, no one has come up with a single legitimate or supportable premise for the idea.

It's a solution in search of a problem.

[RogueLeader]

How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

[Storm Chaser]

How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

In contrast, a brand new senior member can be made squadron commander and put up for a promotion to 1st Lt just because no one else wanted the job. A year later, with very little experience, he/she can be promoted to Capt. In many instances, there's little to no mentoring of these new CAP officers.

Lordmonar asked how was that different [USAF officer with little experience commanding SNCO]. I say it's VERY different.

[lordmonar]

How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

In contrast, a brand new senior member can be made squadron commander and put up for a promotion to 1st Lt just because no one else wanted the job. A year later, with very little experience, he/she can be promoted to Capt. In many instances, there's little to no mentoring of these new CAP officers.

Lordmonar asked how was that different [USAF officer with little experience commanding SNCO]. I say it's VERY different.

Okay....seeing as how you don't actually listen to what I say.

Let's compare a CAP squadron vs a VERY SMALL USAF detachment....which may be commanded by a 1st Lt....with a SNCO as the super.

Again.....no different.

If you had a CAP squadron that was comparable to real USAF squadron....then there is no way a brand new CAP member would ever be given command of it.....and no need to as there would be a lot of people ready to stand up and take over.

But we don't have a lot of 200 person CAP squadrons.....so the analogy is pretty useless.

But........a CAP SNCO who suddenly found himself commanded by a some newby CAP Officers.....would react just like he did when he was assigned a new OIC.   "Your in charge boss.....but listen to me and I'll keep you out of jail and get you lots of fodder for your OER/OPR.  Sir."

That's where there will be no difference.

SNCO's have been "lead" by inexperienced officers since roman times.......I think we can handle CAP officers just fine.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

Sorry if that was a little harsh.....but really. 

[JeffDG]

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.

[Storm Chaser]

@ lordmonar

I'm not bashing the proposed CAP NCO program. I'm neither in favor nor against, since I don't have enough information to make an informed decision. I've stated that I see some merit if done right, but I also don't see the need if it's only about the stripes and nothing else. We just don't know at this point.

But I've been in the Air Force (both as an NCO and commissioned officer) and in CAP long enough to know that we really can't compare the two. The example you provided, IMHO, doesn't reflect the reality of CAP. But just because I disagree with your comments doesn't mean I'm bashing the program or you.

[lordmonar]

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.

Beyond that the lack of anyway of promoting the NCO's we already have?  Beyond the lack that we may not be recruiting any NCO's due to the lack of a promotion program?  Beyond that members choose to go the officer route because there in no NCO progression?

There.....that is a problem. 
We have an announcement for a program that is going to address at least these "problems".

[RogueLeader]

How is that different then a USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience?  The answer is none.

Actually, in the Air Force most squadron commanders are Majs or Lt Cols, not 1st Lts with little to no experience. Officer training in the Air Force is also much more than a few weeks of Level 1 training.

Who said Squadron Commanders?  Lts run shops, flights, etc.  Not to mention that an Order from a brand spanking new LT is a command that (excepting obvious reasons) must be followed.

Have you been in the Air Force? LTs don't usually "command" in the Air Force and lordmonar made the comment about a "USAF SNCO being commanded by a USAF officer with little experience". Brand new LTs in the Air Force are usually mentored by SNCO or more experienced officers.

Not a single day, however, in my Squadron, Cheyenne Composite Squadron, a vast majority (9 out of 13) of my senior members are Active Duty Air Force or Active Air National Guard.  One (1st LT) happened to be the Commander over another (SSgt) on active duty.  He obviously wasn't the Squadron Commander in the AF, but he was still in command of that section.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

I'd be happy to see someone articulate a problem that this program is intended to solve.

Beyond that the lack of anyway of promoting the NCO's we already have?  Beyond the lack that we may not be recruiting any NCO's due to the lack of a promotion program?  Beyond that members choose to go the officer route because there in no NCO progression?

There.....that is a problem. 
We have an announcement for a program that is going to address at least these "problems".

Are they in CAP to be NCOs or to be in CAP?

[Eclipse]

Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing of a program no one knows about. 

You keep saying that, but we know better.

Implemented in the standard military model, this is unnecessary and will not work, but brings with it significant risk to the
existing cadre with zero evidence it will increase membership.  We already know it won't since there was never any
barrier to entrance to NCOs before.

Implemented in the typical CAP "all smoke, no fire" implementation of the grade structure, this already exists at the only level it ever can.

Military NCOs have no more, or less, experience or ability then anyone else in a CAP context to serve as members, nor any innate
capabilities in regards to what is actually our mission, that being CP, AE, & ES.  Many can be and are amazing assets because of their MOS
which has no specific connection to their grade in any way which is different from officers or the civilian population.

Anyone kidding themselves into believing that by virtue of their stripes, NCOs can lead or train cadets "better" then officers or
the average civilian parent doesn't understand the question, nor have they listened to all the inexperience NCOs on this board alone,
let alone other areas, who are going to "fix" CAP with their NCO force powers, only to find CAP doesn't need fixing in any way their
light saber can specifically help (not that CAP doesn't need a lot of fixing).

To make the statement that "NCOs are the backbone of the military" in the context of implementing such a structures in an organization that doesn't have one,
implies both that the organization as it stands doesn't have a backbone, which is wholly insulting to the people doing the real work today,
and that it would benefit from one, when at the same time the only recruiting rhetoric out of NHQ is "more pilots".

It's DOA before the regs is published.

Which brings us around to why this was announced before the regs was published.

[Jaison009]

Maybe we all just stay SMWOG and have officer grades for command positions then. This would solve "expectations" and most of us would do the job anyway.

[AirAux]

Wasn't this hairbrained idea (NCO Program) started by Major General Pineda in the past??  Are we reviving ideas that were best left dead???  Sorry for mentioning HWMNBN, but I was afraid a bunch of the Newbies wouldn't know who I was referring too..  This will give you oldsters the opportunity to explain it all..