NCO Program Launched

[lordmonar]

"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 

No matter what the chain of command is.....there has always been a culture of NCO's policing themselves.
IF they create a position of First Sergeant....then yes he will answer to the Squadron Commander.

As for all the rest.....at this point no one can answer as there is no published program yet.
We got a whole lot of belly aching on this program....which no one has seen yet.

Personally.....I see a value to NCOs in CAP (I am one....so of course I'm going to say that.  ).  What CAP is going to look like in 3-4 years.....I can't say.   But let's keep an open mind.   Let's try new things and see what happens.  Maybe we will all be surprised by what can happen.   If it does not work.....we go back to doing it the old way and press on.

[Fubar]

My understanding for the reason of having NCOs at all was so that accomplished AD NCOs could join and work in CAP without the "necessity" of becoming an officer; there are a lot of very proud NCOs that prefer to NOT be officers, and being able to be a CAP NCO fits more in line with their preferences.

It seems like an AD NCO would have this preference only if:

• They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
• They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)

I don't see why someone can't be proud to be an AD NCO and be a CAP officer at the same time. I could see someone moving between the branches of the military saying they'd prefer to remain a NCO, since the NCO/officer dynamic is the same across the branches. But joining CAP? Not the same thing. It would be like joining the local police department but refusing to use the title police officer because your proud of your previous NCO experience and prefer not to be an officer.

[Flying Pig]

"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 

No matter what the chain of command is.....there has always been a culture of NCO's policing themselves.

Yes, in the military.   This all sounds like the same reasons the Army went to black berets.  The beret will make us feel elite, therefore we will be elite. 

[arajca]

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

...beacause it gives us a whole new set of uniform bling and uniform regulations to argue over!

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread degenerate into a uniform issue yet.

There have been a few attempts to convert it, but the topic continues to resist becoming a uniform thread.

[Garibaldi]

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

...beacause it gives us a whole new set of uniform bling and uniform regulations to argue over!

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread degenerate into a uniform issue yet.

There have been a few attempts to convert it, but the topic continues to resist becoming a uniform thread.

I think CAP NCOs will wear BBDUs with bright orange chevrons. Anyone over the grade of MSGT will get to transition to the golf shirt and tac pants. Chiefs will get the ABUs.

[lordmonar]

And this is why we can't have nice things. 

[SarDragon]

I'm not even sure what happens when an E-7 (for example) joins CAP, becomes an E-7 in CAP, and then makes E-8.   Is there a procedure to promote an NCO in CAP to reflect the new AD grade?

That provision currently exists in the CAP reg (CAPR 35-5). AD NCOs who get promoted may also be given CAP promotions. This is currently the only method for CAP NCOs to promote.

I don't see why someone can't be proud to be an AD NCO and be a CAP officer at the same time.

It's easy. I was a CAP officer most of the time I was in the Navy. In two instances, my meeting were on military bases, and I used due diligence in separating my Navy-ness from my CAP-ness. It did cause some initial confusion with my coworkers, seeing me in a CAP uniform, but quickly abated.

[Eclipse]

...I see a value to NCOs in CAP...

We all do, as members.

Beyond that, it's irrelevant.

[flyboy53]

Right.... you explained how it works in the military.  Im very familiar with that.  Now explain how its going to work when we have a squadrons with no officers?   Or even a group with no officers?  Because there certainly are groups and squadrons with no NCOs. So the idea that we could end up with commands with no officers is a valid concern.  Do the Wing staff officers assume operational control of those units?

You cant compare it to the cadet program, because there is a distinct NCO and officer role, education built into "their" program.  To use that example, every senior who joins needs to join as a CAP E1 and work their way up through CMSgt then switch to 2Lt and continue on up the chain.  Members coming in at any and every step in the ladder blows that concept both officer and enlisted.  CAP has plenty of LTCs running around who dont even know how to log onto EServices. 

My question is still hanging out there.  Aside from symbols.... what traits and core foundations will separate an officer from an NCO?

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

Or is it that you just don't like the answer?

First of all, yes, you can compare it to the cadet program -- after all so much of the rank structure is based on the military or ROTC and a cadet airman or junior NCO is just as much a trainee as the real airman or junior NCO rank is. I've also seen cadet senior NCOs doing much of the same stuff normally required of cadet officers.

As far as units without officers. I find that entirely unlikely. You are forgetting that the commander at the next echelon of command has the authority to appoint unit commanders. If there are none available, that commander can recruit someone from the outside.

This issue is very polarizing. There are those in support and those who are opposed. The problem is that neither you or I have seen the specifics of this program so how can you make an instant judgment call slamming something you haven't seen -- other than a photo op.

So much of the tone is "can't." If I've learned nothing else while a member of this organization, it is to embrace change because change most certainly will happen. Lets see what happens when the program specifics come out and go from there.

[Flying Pig]

Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

[PHall]

Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

It's General Carr's baby. And now you know!

[sarmed1]

...

• They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
• They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)

...

If everything else stays the same, then yes all being worker bees really makes no sense in a division of labor; but one would like the think when phrases like "...the backbone of the the NCO corps..." thrown around that there may be more coming than just a way to make former/current NCO's feel better about themselves as CAP members.

Generally, NCO's manage tactically vs Officers manage strategically.   CAP seems to have more tactically than strategically at the flight, squadron and even group level.  I dont see a division of labor along these lines that much of a difference than where CAP is now. 

Though I am sure not wide spread, there is the confusing look that CAP members get when all of the workers bee's are "O" grades. (in or out of military circles) Creating more NCO's and less O's, personally I think would help to balance that out.

And in no way a dig on enlisted (because I are one) there is a certain level of expectation by the same "confused lookers", especially in military circles when they interact (in person or electronically) with someone wearing O grades and using titles like commander, OIC etc etc.  Having a more stringent requirement for officer rank via background education/PME/PD would in my opinion would help build a better buffer to meet that level of "expectation"  ( I understand that a "degree" is not an end all/save all here, but it is a base starting point, and no I dont have one either)

mk

[JeffDG]

Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

It's General Carr's baby. And now you know!

You know, I took a look at the CAP Strategic Plan, which you would think would be a guide for when they manage to get the attention of the senior leadership of the Air Force (that time and attention is finite, you'd think they'd focus on goals they've defined as strategic when those opportunities present themselves), and nowhere do the letters NCO appear (except in the middle of other words).

[RiverAux]

You know, I took a look at the CAP Strategic Plan, which you would think would be a guide for when they manage to get the attention of the senior leadership of the Air Force (that time and attention is finite, you'd think they'd focus on goals they've defined as strategic when those opportunities present themselves), and nowhere do the letters NCO appear (except in the middle of other words).

[sarcasm] Obviously it was so critically important to do that they couldn't waste time incorporating it into the strategic plan outlining the really important stuff that CAP needs to do.  [sarcasm]

Now, to be fair, a strategic plan isn't going to cover everything the organization intends to do.  But, I would think that it would cover a major change in the organizational structure and senior member development program.  The fact that it didn't make the strategic plan implies to me that this is going to be exactly what many of us predict -- a uniform issue for a handful of CAP members. 

[Private Investigator]

Has NHQ explained why we need an NCO program?  I dont think thats to much to ask.

It's General Carr's baby. And now you know!

That is good enough for me   :clap:

[flyboy53]

...

• They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
• They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)

...

If everything else stays the same, then yes all being worker bees really makes no sense in a division of labor; but one would like the think when phrases like "...the backbone of the the NCO corps..." thrown around that there may be more coming than just a way to make former/current NCO's feel better about themselves as CAP members.

Generally, NCO's manage tactically vs Officers manage strategically.   CAP seems to have more tactically than strategically at the flight, squadron and even group level.  I dont see a division of labor along these lines that much of a difference than where CAP is now. 

Though I am sure not wide spread, there is the confusing look that CAP members get when all of the workers bee's are "O" grades. (in or out of military circles) Creating more NCO's and less O's, personally I think would help to balance that out.

And in no way a dig on enlisted (because I are one) there is a certain level of expectation by the same "confused lookers", especially in military circles when they interact (in person or electronically) with someone wearing O grades and using titles like commander, OIC etc etc.  Having a more stringent requirement for officer rank via background education/PME/PD would in my opinion would help build a better buffer to meet that level of "expectation"  ( I understand that a "degree" is not an end all/save all here, but it is a base starting point, and no I dont have one either)

mk

Do you wonder if that's what's happening here? After all, in the CAP senior member program, there really isn't a difference between the workers and the managers unless you're a commander -- and even then, the commander may be a technician of some sort.

In an earlier post, there was a concern about squadrons without officers, and yet three times in my Air Force career, I served in detachments or forward operating locations where there were no officers, only senior NCOs.. We still got the mission done with or without officers. Why that wouldn't work in CAP is beyond me.

[/list]

[JeffDG]

You know, I took a look at the CAP Strategic Plan, which you would think would be a guide for when they manage to get the attention of the senior leadership of the Air Force (that time and attention is finite, you'd think they'd focus on goals they've defined as strategic when those opportunities present themselves), and nowhere do the letters NCO appear (except in the middle of other words).

[sarcasm] Obviously it was so critically important to do that they couldn't waste time incorporating it into the strategic plan outlining the really important stuff that CAP needs to do.  [sarcasm]

Now, to be fair, a strategic plan isn't going to cover everything the organization intends to do.  But, I would think that it would cover a major change in the organizational structure and senior member development program.  The fact that it didn't make the strategic plan implies to me that this is going to be exactly what many of us predict -- a uniform issue for a handful of CAP members.

I know that a strategic plan doesn't cover everything you need to do...just common sense.

But think of it this way...if you get the chance to meet with the CEO of your biggest customer (SecAF), would you use that time to talk about your strategic relationship with that customer, or would you ask him to make sure your latest $50 invoice is paid on time?

Again, from what I see, this NCO program is a solution in desperate search of a problem.

[Flying Pig]

...

• They don't understand there is no operational difference between a CAP officer and NCO (we're all worker bees)
• They don't understand being a AD NCO has absolutely nothing to do with being a CAP NCO (another reason to get rid of transferring rank from the military)

...

If everything else stays the same, then yes all being worker bees really makes no sense in a division of labor; but one would like the think when phrases like "...the backbone of the the NCO corps..." thrown around that there may be more coming than just a way to make former/current NCO's feel better about themselves as CAP members.

Generally, NCO's manage tactically vs Officers manage strategically.   CAP seems to have more tactically than strategically at the flight, squadron and even group level.  I dont see a division of labor along these lines that much of a difference than where CAP is now. 

Though I am sure not wide spread, there is the confusing look that CAP members get when all of the workers bee's are "O" grades. (in or out of military circles) Creating more NCO's and less O's, personally I think would help to balance that out.

And in no way a dig on enlisted (because I are one) there is a certain level of expectation by the same "confused lookers", especially in military circles when they interact (in person or electronically) with someone wearing O grades and using titles like commander, OIC etc etc.  Having a more stringent requirement for officer rank via background education/PME/PD would in my opinion would help build a better buffer to meet that level of "expectation"  ( I understand that a "degree" is not an end all/save all here, but it is a base starting point, and no I dont have one either)

mk

Do you wonder if that's what's happening here? After all, in the CAP senior member program, there really isn't a difference between the workers and the managers unless you're a commander -- and even then, the commander may be a technician of some sort.

In an earlier post, there was a concern about squadrons without officers, and yet three times in my Air Force career, I served in detachments or forward operating locations where there were no officers, only senior NCOs.. We still got the mission done with or without officers. Why that wouldn't work in CAP is beyond me.
[/list]

That's the whole point of my comments.  It doesn't matter one bit if members are officers or NCOs.  There are members who want to wear NCO stripes.  That's that only reason this is being done.   Whether CAP is all officers, all NCOs or a mixture of both nothing will change.  The ranks will mean nothing.  It will all boil down to what design you think looks better on your uniform.  Because when a member joins, they get to pick what they want to be correct?  How silly is that?
Members who came from the enlisted military side may chose to be enlisted because it looks familiar to them.   Former officers will want to stay officers.  New members will probably choose whatever side the person who recruited them wears.  Or they will just automatically default to wanting to be an officer.  In the end.  Everyone will still come to meetings and do what they do.   Outside organizations will ask what the differences are and will get 100 different answers.
CAP will look like there is an NCO and officer path but in reality there will be absolutely no difference to what members do or can do based on what they choose to wear.

[lordmonar]

That's a lot of extrapolation.

Either it doesn't matter.......or it does.

[Flying Pig]

That's a lot of extrapolation.

Either it doesn't matter.......or it does.

Well, which one is it?  I think Ive articulate pretty well why is doesn't matter.  Im waiting for someone, anyone, or even NHQ to explain why it does matter.