NCO Program Launched

[RiverAux]

Yes, Auxies could go to the CG-version of TCT and Goodmate, but that isn't the norm.  Auxies are only required to take the 8 hour TCT course not the 16 that Coasties take -- and even that is going to be a bit different as they are changing the way TCT is delivered a bit. 

Yes, some Auxies are allowed to go to the CG LAMS course, but it is pretty rare that they do so.  Auxies are way down the priority list for slots. 

While there are a few CG-courses that Auxies can attend, its unusual for them to do so. 

[Shuman 14]

You are arguing points, just to argue. 

Do Auxies attend USCG courses... yes.

If this new NCO program gets off the the ground... could CAP NCOs attend USAF NCOPD courses... maybe.

That is point I was trying to make.

[ol'fido]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

True but only to a point.  NHQ can create all the programs in the world but if those programs are not clearly understood and supported by the rank and file membership they are doomed to failure.  I feel the asking Why is this needed is perfectly valid.

CAP is not USAF-lite.  The missions of the USAF and the CAP are different and converge only on a few points.  To have CAP members taking USAF professional courses is a waste of resources for both the USAF and CAP.   (Ground teams would gain more from some US Army or USMC land nav courses than almost anything the USAF has to offer.)  If anything, NHQ should be developing CAP PD courses directly related to the CAP Mission for forget trying to be USAF-lite.   

[JeffDG]

I feel the asking Why is this needed is perfectly valid.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen fantastic solutions in desperate search of problems.

[Flying Pig]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

No, not really.  In CAP we are more than within our limits to ask why this is needed?  Nobody is arguing or being rude.  So us hashing it out here is perfectly acceptable.  People are for it, against it and others probably don't really care.  I think I fall into the "against" category.  I was an NCO in two branches of the military and CAP officer for many years.  I have yet to see any explanation of what issue this program addresses. If we are going to develop new PD courses, then develop them for the program as a whole.  Dont develop them just to justify members wearing a different patch so you can claim "Well, officers and NCOs get different training"  Its all going to boil down to what people think looks better on their uniform or by wanting to maintain their heritage as military NCOs.

I cant wait until the first time a CAP Officer tells a CAP NCO "Look here Sergeant....."     because you KNOW its coming.

[Eclipse]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

[Eclipse]

CAP is not USAF-lite.

Wow - this may really go on a T-Shirt.  If more people understood the totality of this short sentence we'd be miles further down the road.

[Flying Pig]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.    

[Panache]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

I disagree (or is that arguing?).  I just would like to know the point and the scope of the NCO program.   If the only point of the program is to allow members to wear chevrons instead of bars and leaves, well, yeah, I do have a problem with it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

I disagree (or is that arguing?).  I just would like to know the point and the scope of the NCO program.   If the only point of the program is to allow members to wear chevrons instead of bars and leaves, well, yeah, I do have a problem with it.

Chevys and upgrades for the chevys! That's the real change.

[JoeTomasone]

My understanding for the reason of having NCOs at all was so that accomplished AD NCOs could join and work in CAP without the "necessity" of becoming an officer; there are a lot of very proud NCOs that prefer to NOT be officers, and being able to be a CAP NCO fits more in line with their preferences.   "I'm a SERGEANT, I work for a living!"   

My read on this new initiative was that it was more of a way for NCOs to (more actively) participate in PD and promote rather than an expansion of roles and responsibilities.

I'm not even sure what happens when an E-7 (for example) joins CAP, becomes an E-7 in CAP, and then makes E-8.   Is there a procedure to promote an NCO in CAP to reflect the new AD grade?  I presume you can request another NCO appointment.  <shrug>


At any rate, I too have often considered what it would be like if new SMs joined as E-1 and promoted through the ranks as they gained experience in CAP and its missions, eventually becoming an officer in a manner similar to the Cadet Program or by something more like an OCS (when there's a staff need at Group or higher HQ, for example).    I'm not (necessarily) saying that it's a good idea, just that it might have merits -- one of them being that we'd resolve the issue of having so many Lt Cols being commanded by 1st Lt's.


At any rate, I don't see where this initiative materially changes things to the degree that anyone should get worked up over it.

[RogueLeader]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   

If they understand the role that they are in and respect their oath; they will.  If not; I have a special form in the 2 series of forms for them (and they ain't a promotion, or decoration.)

Ironically enough, I've just had 3 NCO's join my Squadron, and they all decided that they want to be CAP Officers.

edit for minor grammar fix.

[lordmonar]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   

I do.....and I will make sure that all my NCOs do likewise.

[Flying Pig]

"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 
 

[Flying Pig]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   

if they understand the role that they are in and respect their oath; they will.  If not; I have a special form in the 2 series of forms for them (and they ain't a promotion, or decoration.)

Ironically enough, I've just had 3 NCO's join my Squadron, and they all decided that they want to be CAP Officers.

What "role" is that?  That they think NCO stripes look better than Captain bars?  There is NOT a separation of rolls in CAP based on enlisted or officer like the military has.  In CAP it will all be superficial.  That is not going to withstand the test of time.  It will fail.  In the military officers and enlisted are two completely different worlds.  CAP is not set up that way. 

So again..... what foundations will separate a CAP NCO distinctly from a CAP officer?

[flyboy53]

"my NCOs"?  So there is going to be a separate NCO chain of command also?  Will the CAP 1st Sgt answer to the Sq Commander?  Officers and enlisted will have different PD tracks?  Here is the question that keeps getting asked.  What isnt being taught to members now that will suddenly become valuable to us once we have CAP NCOs? 

No there isn't a separate chain of command although a unit first sergeant is the traditional path that a NCO would take to talk to a unit commander.

At group level, there is still a first sergeant. Then at wing level, the ranking NCO is traditionally an advisor. However, first sergeants would then contact that person in order to speak with a wing commander.

It  wouldn't be much different than what happens now with the cadet program, other than this structure would be for NCOs.

[Flying Pig]

Right.... you explained how it works in the military.  Im very familiar with that.  Now explain how its going to work when we have a squadrons with no officers?   Or even a group with no officers?  Because there certainly are groups and squadrons with no NCOs. So the idea that we could end up with commands with no officers is a valid concern.  Do the Wing staff officers assume operational control of those units?

You cant compare it to the cadet program, because there is a distinct NCO and officer role, education built into "their" program.  To use that example, every senior who joins needs to join as a CAP E1 and work their way up through CMSgt then switch to 2Lt and continue on up the chain.  Members coming in at any and every step in the ladder blows that concept both officer and enlisted.  CAP has plenty of LTCs running around who dont even know how to log onto EServices. 

My question is still hanging out there.  Aside from symbols.... what traits and core foundations will separate an officer from an NCO?

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

[RogueLeader]

This whole thread is arguing points just to argue. If the NHQ says there will be an NCO program, there will be an NCO program and we will all salute and carry on.

Actually, it'll mostly be the NCO's saluting...everybody.

$10 says they wont.   

if they understand the role that they are in and respect their oath; they will.  If not; I have a special form in the 2 series of forms for them (and they ain't a promotion, or decoration.)

Ironically enough, I've just had 3 NCO's join my Squadron, and they all decided that they want to be CAP Officers.

What "role" is that?  That they think NCO stripes look better than Captain bars?  There is NOT a separation of rolls in CAP based on enlisted or officer like the military has.

The role that I'm concerned about (in this example,) is that as a NCO, they are subservient to Officers as they are in the Real Military. If they think that they are "above" that; that is where there are issues.

As to the role they play in the unit, I have no idea.

[UH60guy]

"CAP NHQ has determined the need for a separate officer and NCO career path because _____________________________"

...beacause it gives us a whole new set of uniform bling and uniform regulations to argue over!

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread degenerate into a uniform issue yet.