NCO Program Launched

[Private Investigator]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt? 

[Garibaldi]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt? 

Will we put the NCO stripes on the ABUs?

[Shuman 14]

CAP officers can NOT attend any of the USAF schools in residence. Air War College is only offered to CAP via correspondence. The reasons given are space availability and many require security clearances. At the same time some of the sections of the various schools are open with permissions but credit is not given. Add to that that a college degree is required to enroll, and to many CAP members are not eligible.
The SNCOA at Tyndall AFB told me they might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 CAP NCOs in the program, but how many could afford to pay for housing and meals for the length of the Academy?

Bill Breeze
Air War College 1974

Where did "residence" come into the discussion? Not all USAF officers attend courses in "residence" either. It is the ability to enroll and complete the training... be it distance learning, in residence, or some form of "road show"... is the point we're really discussing.

And are sure about that CAP officers never attend "in residence" training with the USAF? So if I told you I know people that have attended USAF courses, in residence, as CAP officers, are they lying? Am I lying? Or, are you misinformed? 

Where there is a will, there is a way. If given the opportunity I am sure that there are many members, both Officers and NCOs, that would find the time and the money to attend these courses, even on short notice.

Happens all the time in USCGAux, so how hard can it be for CAP members to do the same thing?

Simple put... a CAP member apply, if accepted by that school or course, gets put on a "wait status", if an actual military member drops outs or they have unassigned course seats, the CAP member gets notified and gets to attend. Of course travel, lodging and meals are on the student.

Not an impossible task to accomplish and I believe there are those who would be willing to volunteer their time, money and effort to attend. Of course there are who won't... you get all kinds in a volunteer organization like CAP.

[Shuman 14]

CAP Officers can attend the USAF's SLS and the Air War College correct? So why is it unlikely for the new CAP NCO Corps to attend USAF NCO courses? 

We don't have SLS we have SOS, and there is a significant cost for the PME courses.  I am sure the average member does not have the disposable funds for such a trip.

You're talking about members who own their own aircraft in many cases... I'm sure there are those who CAN afford it... if offered the opportunity.

[Shuman 14]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt? 

And the uniform thread drift begins! 

[abdsp51]

CAP Officers can attend the USAF's SLS and the Air War College correct? So why is it unlikely for the new CAP NCO Corps to attend USAF NCO courses? 

We don't have SLS we have SOS, and there is a significant cost for the PME courses.  I am sure the average member does not have the disposable funds for such a trip.

You're talking about members who own their own aircraft in many cases... I'm sure there are those who CAN afford it... if offered the opportunity.

Um no I am not talking about anyone owning their own aircraft.  There is a significant cost for PME the trans costs alone would be high then lodging would cost roughly $2400 and that's not including meals and if they were able to get billeting.  Plus there would be the issue of base access, considering the Wg CC has say over who comes on the yard and who doesn't.  Now you want to throw in the cost of members flying in, now you need to factor in fuel costs, tie down fees, and rental car. 

This program needs to get started first before we start talking about membership attending PME. 

[Shuman 14]

OH I completely agree, it's in its baby steps phase, lets see how this plays out, then we can talk about how to make it better.

[abdsp51]

OH I completely agree, it's in its baby steps phase, lets see how this plays out, then we can talk about how to make it better.

Exactly the growing pains need to be known and worked before we start trying to run the game winning play. 

[Mitchell 1969]

I'd still like to know the rationale of why the program was cancelled back when .. Though that's probably gone to the grave..

I wasn't an NCO then, but I knew a lot of them and remember the decision.

It came about because of several factors. One was that somebody officially noted what everybody else had long known - that there were no functional differences between NCO and officer roles in CAP. Also no difference in jobs available to either, or training available.

A second factor was the old NCO structure was not tiered the same as USAF. Rather than being a career progression system over decades, the NCO program in CAP was more of a holding pattern for seniors who had no prior military or cadet officer experience. Making it worse was time in grade requirements measured in months rather than years. It was entirely possible to be a CAP Master Sergeant after only a couple if years - and at age 19 or 20! It didn't endear USAF NCOs to CAP at all.

A third factor - there were voiced concerns regarding CAP giving a different look and feel to fraternization customs that were then entrenched in the Air Force. With CAP, it was all Bob talking to Bill - despite Bob being a LtCol and Bill a MSgt., both addressing each other by first name. And, one I vividly recall was there had been voiced concern regarding awkwardness when CAP mixed bunches were forced to separate at meal and social times in USAF bases.

But, those were issues important to that era. Of those three, the last one is either not an issue today or can be corrected easily with training. The second issue can be addressed by policy. But it's the first one that, in my opinion, presents the biggest nut to crack.

[Private Investigator]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt? 

And the uniform thread drift begins! 

On the ABUs, will it be subdued or non-subdued NCO stripes?   

[Luis R. Ramos]

The photos shown with the ABU with CAP Officer insignias the grade insignias were not subdued. I guess NCO stripes will not be either.

Flyer

[Private Investigator]

The photos shown with the ABU with CAP Officer insignias the grade insignias were not subdued. I guess NCO stripes will not be either.

Flyer

So I guess we won't be able to hide from the parents? 

[Garibaldi]

The photos shown with the ABU with CAP Officer insignias the grade insignias were not subdued. I guess NCO stripes will not be either.

Flyer

So I guess we won't be able to hide from the parents? 

We can't even hide from ourselves...

[Luis R. Ramos]

But... but... we are wearing CAMO!

Flyer

[RiverAux]

I would not say that CG Aux members regularly attend the same training schools as those in the Coast Guard.  There are a fair number of specialty classes taught by the CG at CG facilities that members go to.  There are a few distance learning courses available to Auxies (I know about some in the public affairs arena), but its my impression that few Auxies take advantage of them. 

But, in so far as widespread participation by Aux members in CG schools, I'd say that it is extremely limited. 

[Shuman 14]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

Will we put the NCO stripes on the white aviator shirt? 

And the uniform thread drift begins! 

On the ABUs, will it be subdued or non-subdued NCO stripes?   

It's CAP! Of course it will be non-subdued for the first 3 to 4 years, then Vanguard will make an unofficial subdued version for a year or two (which people will wear regardless of authorization), during that period their merits will be debated here "ad nauseum",then they will finally be authorized by National and then you will continue to see the non-subdued ones worn for years after that.   

Did I miss anything? 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Yeah, you missed the part where NHQ authorizes a new uniform, and the debate about which patches and insignias are to be worn on the new uniform with the NCO subdued stripes...

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

I would not say that CG Aux members regularly attend the same training schools as those in the Coast Guard.  There are a fair number of specialty classes taught by the CG at CG facilities that members go to.  There are a few distance learning courses available to Auxies (I know about some in the public affairs arena), but its my impression that few Auxies take advantage of them. 

But, in so far as widespread participation by Aux members in CG schools, I'd say that it is extremely limited.

Every Auxie involved in Operations is suppose to attend TCT and Goodmate... Is that not widespread? 

At least once a quarter I get a mass e-mailing looking for any volunteers to attend LAMS in residence, maybe it's just my region/district.

[RiverAux]

Goodmate is not required for Ops quals.

Yes, those in boatcrew operations take TCT but it isn't the same TCT course as the CG takes.  There are some CG-specific ICS courses that Auxies take. 

AUXLAMS is an Aux course. 

My point is that while there are some CG-courses taken by Auxies (heck, I've taken a couple), it is not common. 

[Shuman 14]

Goodmate is not required for Ops quals.

Yes, those in boatcrew operations take TCT but it isn't the same TCT course as the CG takes.  There are some CG-specific ICS courses that Auxies take. 

AUXLAMS is an Aux course. 

My point is that while there are some CG-courses taken by Auxies (heck, I've taken a couple), it is not common.

OK the TCT and Goodmate course I attended... I was the only Auxie in them. Taught by the USCG at a USCG Station and (except for me) the attendees were all USCG members.

And I'm talking about LAMS not AUXLAMS, again the USCG course that E-4 thru E-6, O1 thru O-2 and GS-9 thru GS-11 attend... that course.