NCO Program Launched

[johnnyb47]

A PD program to allow current NCO's to advance makes perfect sense to me.
I take no issue with that. As current CAP NCO's fill the same needs and roles as CAP officers why not allow them to progress using the current PD system with very minor tweaks? Seems a no-brainer to me. If they serve the same function and do the same things have them learn the same stuff!

As I said in my later post, (to paraphrase) "Once I know all the how's the rest of it doesn't really matter to me. All systems go."

Why do I need to understand it? Because at the squadron level I will be asked to implement it, support it and answer for it should it fail. Someone high above me will receive the accolades should it be a resounding success.
I may be a volunteer but I do so with pride and accept responsibility for when something doesnt work right.... even if the decision was never mine to begin with.

What's the problem?

I don't have a problem.
I never said I had a problem.
I merely asked questions.

[Eclipse]

What need does it meet?  The need of CAP NCO's to have a progression program. 

This isn't even >your< assertion about the program, let alone national's.  On a number of occasions you've asserted that
being a CAP-NCO gives you some sort of force-powers to concentrate on just the narrow road you feel like
being involved in, disavowing any pretense towards command or leadership because "I'm just an NCO".

A) - That's pretty much already the case for every member, regardless of grade.  Everyone is free to choose how much
they want to volunteer, so long as they live up to whatever commitments they make, but there's no "class" within a
volunteer organization like CAP that gets to simply say "we don't do that", and to try and implement one is the
first step towards "breaking" CAP once and for all.

B) - If you think creating another way to segregate an already divided membership into "doers" and "managers" is a "good idea",
then you've some how missed the lessons on the volunteer mentality you should have received to date based on your CAP service.

Bottom line effect to CAP?    ZERO.   Costs CAP nothing.....and it is more or less just a surface change.

So...what's the problem?

Anything with ZERO effect to CAP (or any organization), should not receive effort or attention, especially in the case where
the organization is struggling to maintain viability and in some quarters its very existence.  Apple Computer
may well have time to dabble in things with "Zero effect".  CAP does not.

This certainly will cost CAP thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours.
You don't create an entire tree of a professional development program for "free".

Just the creation of the new insignia will likely be a few grand.
(Consider, also, that USAF NCOs who have been wearing the same jackets and shirts will now need to go an buy new ones.  $$$)

At 2-3 times the membership we have today, and without all the empty shirts, this idea might be workable.
I've said for years that we don't allow members just to "be members" - in some cases FNGs are
wing staffers with a director's job before their Level I clears, then they flail around in the deep end until they
either figure it out or quit.

But absent a wholesale change in the officer grades and PD, even those "doers" are going to be at least butter bars,
if not CFI-Captains, etc.  So there's still no enlisted corps to "care and feed", nor will they ever need "care and feeding",
since it's entirely likely that the new slick-sleeve AB you signed up make 6-figures at his "real job" and isn't interested
in your care.

Between all the unfunded personnel mandates, constant uptick in member expectations without increased rewards,
and seemingly being lead by the lawyers, actuaries and finance people, I wonder sometimes which Civil Air Patrol
they belong to.

Because the one I'm in has units struggling for viability, triple-assigned members just to meet unfunded personnel mandates,
and it constantly asking it's self "Why I am."

The typical NCO with some leadership ability and useful military experience is going to be welcomed into most units with open arms
and high hopes, but if they start spouting any "I don't do that, I'm an NCO" nonsense, they are going to be either laughed at or marginalized
by the rest of the unit who "does do that".

[RiverAux]

Unless there is a meaningful actual program to go along with this change, I think Eclipse hit it right on the head earlier in that this is nothing other than a uniform issue. 

The "program" will need to be something more than a way for NCOs to get promoted within CAP if it is to be of any use at all.  I'll laugh my socks off if it does nothing other than incorporate the senior member levels found in the current PD program.  If it does, or is only a variant of the CAP officer program then this will be exposed as nothing more than an ego project. 

I've said before that I would probably be on-board for a massive restructuring of our PD program that involved starting out EVERY senior member as an Airman no matter what their former military rank, education, or skill set and making EVERYONE progress through the program with no exceptions.  Of course, we could do something like that with our current officer-focused system that would work just about as well, and I'd be fine with that too. 

[AirAux]

Seems to me that this is going to be a giant CF for a long time.  I have been in CAP for over 30 years and I have never run across a retired or active NCO that wanted to join CAP that didn't want to be an officer..  Do we really want Gunny types attempting to run the program with their 150% military image discipline macho?  Should be interesting.  Especially since the CIC is going to make Marines wear little tiny French unisex headgear and the Air Force Academy is going to remove God from their Pledge..  We can't get enough volunteers by offering everyone Officer status now all of a sudden we are going to get volunteers by letting them come in as Corporals?  I love our military, but in my field, I see a lot of our young soldiers and some are not coming back well from their 2,3,4 tours overseas.  We haven't done right by them and and unfortunately some of them are not in the shape to adapt to the type of organization we offer.  Our soldiers are not the typical soldiers we had in the past.  They are fighters and that is about it.  They are not cooks or truck drivers or supply sarge's.  They are all used up when they come back and may not understand a laid back program with children that you can't yell at or tell stories about holding your buddies face on while trying to get him back to the HumVee.  Maybe we can restructure our program to help them.  That would be a noble  endeavor.  I am concerned.  However, I am old, maybe my fears are groundless, maybe you young snots can figure it out.  Peace.

[Eclipse]

I'm not for dissuading anyone to joining, especially people with relevent experience looking to help, but
how many NCO's have we seen just on this board who joined CAP and the first thing they intend to do is "fix things"?

We need your help, not your repair.

[Flying Pig]

Im just curious to see what duties will be designated as "Only an officer can do this"

[RogueLeader]

For those of us that are multi hatted, are we going to need multiple uniforms.  Today I'm Maj Seng, Commander; next weekend at the SAREX, I'm SMSgt Seng GTL, or is it 1st LT Seng- GBD.

I'm so confused. . .

[Elioron]

Im just curious to see what duties will be designated as "Only an officer can do this"

In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.

Looks like command positions.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Im just curious to see what duties will be designated as "Only an officer can do this"

In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.

Looks like command positions.

So...everything officers can do now, including not serving in command.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this only got the light of day because the current Nat.CC is a former NCO. And the stuff about "being the backbone" of the organization, just makes it sound like our own leadership doesn't know how CAP works. Wonderful.

[arajca]

As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

[Майор Хаткевич]

As I see it now, the result of this will be:
1. Some members change insignia
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders
3. No appreciable effect on the average CAP squadron

Depending on amount of NCOs who switch, there would be administrative work to deal with their new/different/PD

[Storm Chaser]

While they didn't specifically mentioned it in the news release, I would assume that other positions such as vice or deputy commander and chief of staff would also be reserved for officers. Heck, I would throw in the deputy chiefs of staff and directors in the mix.

If we actually had a meaningful program for CAP enlisted personnel, defined roles for both enlisted and officers to include division of labor and/or scope, more stringent requirements to become an officer, and specialized professional development for each, then I would welcome the program. As it stands now, with the little information we have, this just seems like a mechanism for current or future CAP NCOs to get promoted. I doubt that this alone will transform CAP NCOs into the "backbone" of the organization. Unfortunately, at this point, it's too early to tell.

[NC Hokie]

As I see it now, the result of this will be:
2. A smaller pool of potential unit commanders

Eh, "that guy" (you know, the one who trades in his railroad tracks for some up and down chevrons) most likely wasn't interested in command anyway, so the only appreciable effect is a few seconds saved by not asking if he wants the job.

[Eclipse]

Last time I checked CAPWATCH, something like 10 squadrons would lose their CC's, not exactly a big deal, unless you're in one of those
units and/or one of those CC's.

"Thanks for all the hard work, now go care and feed the enlisted."

"There are no enlisted."

"What?  Sorry, I can' hear you over the noise that huge community of new members is making."

[Elioron]

If we actually had a meaningful program for CAP enlisted personnel, defined roles for both enlisted and officers to include division of labor and/or scope, more stringent requirements to become an officer, and specialized professional development for each, then I would welcome the program.

It wouldn't work for CAP.  The enlisted/officer paradigm of the military cannot function in a voluntary service organization.  We do not have the membership to support it.  The moment you tell people they aren't good enough to be an officer you'll start hemorrhaging members.

[Storm Chaser]

If we actually had a meaningful program for CAP enlisted personnel, defined roles for both enlisted and officers to include division of labor and/or scope, more stringent requirements to become an officer, and specialized professional development for each, then I would welcome the program.

It wouldn't work for CAP.  The enlisted/officer paradigm of the military cannot function in a voluntary service organization.  We do not have the membership to support it.  The moment you tell people they aren't good enough to be an officer you'll start hemorrhaging members.

I would agree that the NCO Program as it currently stands and with the proposed changes (and without having all the details of what those changes are) seem unnecessary at best. That said, I don't agree with your comment that we will lose lots of members if they can't be officers. Is that the reason you joined? Then perhaps we don't need you. Sorry!

This is a voluntary organization as you've asserted several times. We don't (or shouldn't) join "to be an officer", but to serve our communities. The officer paradigm in CAP sometimes doesn't make any sense. Officers, in most organizations, are in charge or manage things (see quote below). That's not always the case in CAP. Within the Cadet Programs, having senior member officers makes sense. Everywhere else, not really unless you're in a position of authority and/or responsibility.

of·fi·cer   noun   \ˈä-fə-sər, ˈȯ-\

     : a member of a police force

     : a person who has an important position in a company, organization, or government

     : a person who has a position of authority or command in the military

You've mentioned several times that we're not the military; I agree. But yet, we want to wear military style grades and titles that, to everyone else outside of CAP (and even to some of our members) mean something, but not in CAP. Grade should NOT be a form of recognition; that's why you have awards. It should NOT be a way to show professional development; that's why you have Levels. Grade should be there to show the type of responsibility you're capable of assuming in the organization. When someone gets promoted to the next grade, the first thing that should be asked is if this member is ready to assumed increased responsibilities at that level. If we can't or don't want to do that as an organization, then we're just playing "officers" and "wannabes" (no disrespect intended to all who have earned their grade through hard work in CAP).

I joined CAP because I wanted to volunteer and continue serving my country. I'm an officer because in addition to progressing in the organization, I have assume increased responsibility at every opportunity or when there has been a need. I didn't join to be an officer and wouldn't leave is suddenly I couldn't be one anymore. I think that could be said of most of our hard working volunteers.

[Майор Хаткевич]

On my way home from a meeting I stopped for gas. The gas station owner and the shoplifting kid both assumed I was a cop, leading to a hilarious chain of events that played out over the next two days.

[JC004]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

[Hawk200]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

[JC004]

This thread seems to be malfunctioning because it hasn't become a uniform thread yet.  Are you people ill?

So, what are the NCO stripes gonna look like?

(There you go.)

That's just a reasonable question, especially for NCOs that've already spent money on them.  I figured by now it'd be the first 2 or 3 pages of the topic, then a page or so of uniforms once it had degraded.  Very strange.

It is interesting that there's 4 pages on a program that hasn't be outlined to the membership yet.