NCO Program Launched

[Robert Hartigan]

I am not clear on the specifics of the program because there is a void in the conventional wisdom of the general membership. As a point of clarification, the organization does not have any commissioned officers so, by default all officers are non-commissioned, right? On the surface, it appears the heirarchy of rank is the only noteworthy change, especially if Sergeants are allowed to command units. This all stirs the formation of more questions! And, unfortunately misgivings by the rank and file, many of which have been poured out here on this forum.

The discourse regarding college degrees and roles and levels of responsibility highlight a systemic problem that can't be solved with insignia. I have to believe there is substance behind this effort, but it is difficult to see vision without understanding the goal.

Before institutionalizing a new professional development stratum, I would have preferred to see a successful rewrite and launch of the uniform manual, or a fully deployed Organizational Excellance program with success stories, or a fully embraced safety program that engages the general membership in more than a perfunctory glance at PowerPoint slides.

Without program specifics like regulatory guidance on implementing, supporting and advancing as a NCO all the speculation is nor better than tilting at wind mills. As "officers" we must wait and see and trust the leadership has the best interests of the organization in mind with this program roll out.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

For now at least.

The new system is already inspiring a lot of healthy discussion. An initial note was posted Monday evening on CAP's Facebook page, and it has already attracted close to a record number of "likes" – 213 so far. If this level of interest spreads throughout the entire CAP community, not to mention the community of potential new members, this initiative is certain to be as successful as those who put the program together envisioned.

HAHAHAHA!

[RogueLeader]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

[. . .] For now, eligibility for the NCO corps is limited to those who now hold or have previously held the
military grades of E-5 through E-9 [. . .]

So in the future, it appears, new members will be able to "enlist" in CAP or "Commission."

[Panache]

The new system is already inspiring a lot of healthy discussion. An initial note was posted Monday evening on CAP's Facebook page, and it has already attracted close to a record number of "likes" – 213 so far. If this level of interest spreads throughout the entire CAP community, not to mention the community of potential new members, this initiative is certain to be as successful as those who put the program together envisioned.

Now we know what the holdup on the new 39-1 is.  They're going to let the details on the uniforms be determined by social media.

"Honor Guard shoulder cords and ascots will be required with the ABU uniform.  Like if you agree.  Share if you disagree."

[a2capt]

Now we know what the holdup on the new 39-1 is.  They're going to let the details on the uniforms be determined by social media.

Administered by the same people who proposed separating our social media use in ways that potentially violate the ToS of the various portals not to mention making things just a total PITA.

That's going to go so well.

[Eclipse]

Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization,

Agreed.

Are NCO's only capable or providing their skills and abilities when they are wearing stripes?

Would the above not also apply to NCO's success in assisting private businesses or other volunteer organizations like the ARC or the BSA?  In all of those cases your skills
and experience would be sought with no connection to the uniform whatsoever.

Please indicate below the top 5 things that will now open to CAP "NCOs" which they could not do, or even not do as effectively as CAP "Officers".

[Eclipse]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

For now at least.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx


- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.

[RogueLeader]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

For now at least.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx


- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.

But, from the CAP letter, that will happen.  Just not yet.

[Eclipse]

The changes open CAP's doors wide open to NCOs, present and past, in all military branches. Joining CAP is now more attractive to NCOs, who can progress in rank within the CAP NCO corps and assume a wide variety of responsibilities. In turn, our members, and CAP as a whole, will benefit from their skills, training, discipline and experience.

Were they barred from membership before?  Were there limitations in the duties they could perform?

The new system is already inspiring a lot of healthy discussion. An initial note was posted Monday evening on CAP's Facebook page, and it has already attracted close to a record number of "likes" – 213 so far. If this level of interest spreads throughout the entire CAP community,

213 is a "record number"?

There 60,000 members in CAP and last time I cared to look ~3500 members of that Facebook page.

That means that only ~6% of the membership that bothers with Facebook could be further bothered to
care enough to click "like", and as a reminder, there's no "dislike" button on Facebook, however not
all the comments there are positive.

...not to mention the community of potential new members, this initiative is certain to be as successful as those who put the program together envisioned.

What community of new members?  If anything this has the potential to make things worse in regards to recruiting military NCOs and our standing in the military community.
One thing is pretty clear, most NCOs are pretty serious about bearing, discipline, and keeping their people in line.  If there's one place that former military struggle
in the CAP paradigm it's this issue.

If we start some sort of concerted effert to bring NCOs into some "new" CAP, and they get a load of how most unit function, we've may have lost that person for good.

And without some concerted push to bring them in, there is no "community of potential new members".

[Майор Хаткевич]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

For now at least.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx


- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.

But, from the CAP letter, that will happen.  Just not yet.

So first we'll make a lot of Chiefs....and no Indians.

[lordmonar]

Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization,

Agreed.

Are NCO's only capable or providing their skills and abilities when they are wearing stripes?

Would the above not also apply to NCO's success in assisting private businesses or other volunteer organizations like the ARC or the BSA?  In all of those cases your skills
and experience would be sought with no connection to the uniform whatsoever.

Please indicate below the top 5 things that will now open to CAP "NCOs" which they could not do, or even not do as effectively as CAP "Officers".

1.  They can be NCOs.......which as we all know is different then being officers.
2.  They can focus on just their squadron and tell the rest of CAP to just F-off!
3.  They can relive their glory days as a LT chewing, Airman butt kickers of their youth.
4.  They can show their subordinate who it's done in the real military.
5.  It would piss off Eclipse to no end!

Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

[MSG Mac]

I chose to remain an Officer, rather than a SMSgt because there was no "real" program or progression for NCO's. When HQ finally publishes a new 35-5 and 50-17, I will reconsider my options.

[Eclipse]

Please indicate below the top 5 things that will now open to CAP "NCOs" which they could not do, or even not do as effectively as CAP "Officers".

1.  They can be NCOs.......which as we all know is different then being officers.
2.  They can focus on just their squadron and tell the rest of CAP to just F-off!
3.  They can relive their glory days as a LT chewing, Airman butt kickers of their youth.
4.  They can show their subordinate who it's done in the real military.
5.  It would piss off Eclipse to no end![/quote]

Everything above is either already open to them as "regular members", #2 is too, but the attitude is detrimental to CAP's mission, and frankly a sideways
insult to NCOs. 

I suspect #5 is the only unique value with this proposal.  And comes not from the stripes, which I care little about - if someone wants to
kids themselves about the situation, but is still holding his corner, it doesn't matter to me, what hacks me is the wasted effort.  We get
SeCAF-level attention and want to discuss what is essentially a uniform issue?  Pogo continues to be a prophet without equal.

Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

If you honestly believe this is bashing, then you're making the argument and you really don't "get" the issue.

[johnnyb47]

Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

The main point I see from Eclipse in all of his posts going back 4 pages (I didnt go back all the way... got bored with rereading the thread) has been "What need does this meet, what true purpose does this serve or what problem does this fix?"
I see no NCO bashing. If someone could provide a reasonable answer I'm sure he'd just say, 'OK'.
It's just not there or hasn't yet been made apparent.

Honestly... what purpose does an NCO progrqam serve in CAP?
It is no longer about an allowance for those that earned their stripes in the RM to continue wear with pride as we could soon be looking at new NCO's minted right within the CAP program without PM Service.
Will YOUR NCO stripes on a CAP uniform mean as much to you if someone achieves the same grade and does so solely based off of 3 years service in CAP and CAP professional development courses?
I mean no disrespect and I thank all of you with Prior Military Experience for your service. I really do.
I'm just not sure we understand the goal of the program.... why fix THIS when it isn't necessarily the CAP issue that needs the most attention right now? What does it really do for CAP?

[Elioron]

1.  They can be NCOs.......which as we all know is different then being officers.

So, kind of like it is now.

2.  They can focus on just their squadron and tell the rest of CAP to just F-off!

Which they can just as easily do now.

3.  They can relive their glory days as a LT chewing, Airman butt kickers of their youth.

No more than they do now, but good luck with that.

4.  They can show their subordinate who it's done in the real military.

I'm guessing you mean "how", but still, no.  We aren't the "real military" and really shouldn't be.

5.  It would piss off Eclipse to no end!

Okay, this is good!

Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

I don't see any of this as "bashing" NCOs.  If I see someone sporting SNCO stripes I look at them much as I do someone wearing a silver leaf - someone that has significant knowledge and experience.

Unfortunately, we still have absolutely no details, but from the hints we're being given the only change is some sort of progression mechanism for NCOs.  It doesn't look like their role or purpose in CAP will change in any real way.

[ol'fido]

Just my .02.

NCOs vs Officers- Let's be realistic about what CAP asks of it "officers". 99.9% of our "officers" are not involved in strategic planning, organizational management, or program development in the sense that their AD counterparts are. Most of our "officers" are doing the same thing that adult members of the boy scouts, Rotary Club, and American Legion are doing on a day to day basis.

What exactly is it that CAP "Officers" do on a regular basis that couldn't be done by any adult with average intelligence, good character, and an equal amount of training?

The same could be said of our PD requirements for "officers". Are they intellectually challenging beyond the capacity of anyone without a commission or degree. I don't think so. CAP is not something that requires an advanced degree to understand. We can debate PME equivalencies for a while but it boils down to the point that an entry level NCO course in any of the services has more required academic and training requirements than all of CAP's PD requirements for seniors combined. So that is an "academic" discussion. Pun intended.

Yes, anybody who is a good NCO in CAP could just as easily be a good officer in CAP. But what does having an NCO program in CAP cost us? A few more pages in 39-1, some extra bandwidth on Vanguard, some ink on paper. It's not like we have to pay anybody or pay to house them.

What role will they fill in CAP? The same role as any other person in CAP with a heartbeat and a membership card. They can't command? How many of our seniors move up to wing or even group command? If they do that as an NCO, they can take the rank and after their tour retain it or return to their  NCO rank. It's just a process. If it happens, it happens. It may never come up. If it does, that is what we have the BOG, NHQ, the Command Council, and all these other high end management groups to figure out.

Does it affect our image with the public or with our ES partners? The public in general doesn't know or doesn't care. They see a military uniform and think military. You say you are a sergeant in CAP? The public hears that and thinks "Great, I'm glad we have people like that in this country". They don't think "what the heck is CAP doing with sergeants."  Our ES partners? We have more problems with them than a few extra stripes running around. We need to worry more about marketing our capabilities and making sure we can perform up to the level that we advertise. If someone is a seen as a "tool" by one of our ES partners, they won't care what rank he is wearing. If LtCol Bagodunuts is a "tool" and SSgt Sqaredaway is seen as knowledgeable and professional, they will deal with the SSgt and tell the LTCol to sit in a corner and don't touch anything or better yet leave.

If you have been in the military, you have known NCOs who were complete screwups and officers as well. You have also seen NCOs and Officers that you would trust with anything.

It's the person. Not the rank.

[johnnyb47]

With everything else that needs our attention in Civil Air Patrol, "Lets have an NCO PD Program because we CAN.... even if it serves no purpose in it's current form." seems to me to be the wrong move at this point in time.
Even if this opens the doors to a potential 10,000 new members we at the unit level will be questioned heavily when we are unable to retain them due to a lack of any official guidance as to how to USE NCO's any differently than we do Commissioned officers. With nothing to do they will come and go very quickly.... as with any member now that doesn't have a clearly defined role and direction within a short time after joining.

If you give me 10 new squadron members (that I wouldn't have gotten without the NCO Corps), tell me a way to use them that makes sense AND keeps them interested in the program beyond the 1 year mark and do it in such a way that doesn't alienate the current membership to the point of quitting... well then I guess the rest doesn't really matter much to me.

[a2capt]

I'd still like to know the rationale of why the program was cancelled back when .. Though that's probably gone to the grave..

[lordmonar]

Seriously......why the heart ache?   8 pages of NCO bashing?......and yes you are bashing each and everyone one of us who chooses to wear their stripes.

The main point I see from Eclipse in all of his posts going back 4 pages (I didnt go back all the way... got bored with rereading the thread) has been "What need does this meet, what true purpose does this serve or what problem does this fix?"
I see no NCO bashing. If someone could provide a reasonable answer I'm sure he'd just say, 'OK'.
It's just not there or hasn't yet been made apparent.

What need does it meet?  The need of CAP NCO's to have a progression program. 
See...that the problem with this thread and NCO bashing.   Everyone is crying about the time and effort put into it.....but what's the harm?
Why can't we do things just because we want to?  It is not making anyone do anything else.....that they did not have to do before...i.e. no added work load.  It is not making the already useless CAP rank system any more useless. 

Honestly... what purpose does an NCO progrqam serve in CAP?

The same purpose as the CAP field grade officer program in CAP.

It is no longer about an allowance for those that earned their stripes in the RM to continue wear with pride as we could soon be looking at new NCO's minted right within the CAP program without PM Service.
Will YOUR NCO stripes on a CAP uniform mean as much to you if someone achieves the same grade and does so solely based off of 3 years service in CAP and CAP professional development courses?
I mean no disrespect and I thank all of you with Prior Military Experience for your service. I really do.
I'm just not sure we understand the goal of the program.... why fix THIS when it isn't necessarily the CAP issue that needs the most attention right now? What does it really do for CAP?

Why do YOU need to under that the goal of the program?   Really, why?   I say this because there is a lot of heart ache about this when A) No one has seen the program yet.  And B) It is not (as far as we know) going to change anything except give CAP NCO's a way to progress.

When NCO's say we think we can do out job's better being NCO's.....the argument is "why can't you do it as an officer?"   And I counter because I can do it as and NCO.

It doesn't matter.   Assuming that nothing else changes in the way CAP does business.....then all that it means is that maybe....more former NCO's will choose to keep their stripes instead of going up the officer path.

Bottom line effect to CAP?    ZERO.   Costs CAP nothing.....and it is more or less just a surface change.

So...what's the problem?

[lordmonar]

With everything else that needs our attention in Civil Air Patrol, "Lets have an NCO PD Program because we CAN.... even if it serves no purpose in it's current form." seems to me to be the wrong move at this point in time.
Even if this opens the doors to a potential 10,000 new members we at the unit level will be questioned heavily when we are unable to retain them due to a lack of any official guidance as to how to USE NCO's any differently than we do Commissioned officers. With nothing to do they will come and go very quickly.... as with any member now that doesn't have a clearly defined role and direction within a short time after joining.

If you give me 10 new squadron members (that I wouldn't have gotten without the NCO Corps), tell me a way to use them that makes sense AND keeps them interested in the program beyond the 1 year mark and do it in such a way that doesn't alienate the current membership to the point of quitting... well then I guess the rest doesn't really matter much to me.

You work on the problems you can fix.  The NUC is working on uniforms, the ES guys are working on 60-1, the CMSgt CAP was working on the CAP NCO program.   It is not like this is going to affect any of the other problems in CAP and it is not like it pulled any manpower or money from those other issues.