NCO Program Launched

[Jaison009]

As you mentioned we (American Red Cross) have position based titles (local role is not always the same as national and for the purpose of discussion I am only addressing our Disaster Ops Human Resources System national roles). We do not wear grade; however, it is known who is in charge and their rank.

All of our volunteers and most employees start as service associates in their chosen group (Individual Client Services, Mass Care, External Relations Information and Planning, Logistics, Ops Mgmt, Disaster Srvs Technology, Staff Services)  and activity (Ind Client Srvs: Client Casework, Disaster Health Services, Disaster Mental Health Services, Recovery Planning & Assistance, Mass Care: Feeding, Sheltering, Bulk Distribution, Safe and Well, External Relations: Government Ops, Community Partnerships, Fund Raising, Public Affairs, Info and Planning: Disaster Assessment, Information Dissemination, Financial & Statistical Information, Finance, Logistics: Facilities, In kind donations, Warehousing, Transportation, Life Safety Asset Protection, Procurement Staff Services: Local Community Volunteers, Staff Relations, Training, Staff Wellness, Staff Planning and Support, Disaster Srvs Technology: Communications, Networking, Customer Service, Computer Ops.

Once volunteers and employees have met the basic requirements for their group and activity, they become a service associate. From there local leadership can make anyone that has the training and life experience a supervisor. To promote from SV to Manager, there is a promotion packet and oral interview process. This must be signed off on by the division. From MN someone may promote to Generalist Manager and then Chief after going through the respective process and approval from NHQ.  This comes out to SA-SV-MN-GM-CH. This is the same for nearly every group and activity.

Lets take Staff Services as an example. If someone is in Staff Planning and Support their title is Staff Services (SS)/Staff Planning & Support (SPS)/Position so SS/SPS/SA,SV,MN,GM,CH.

For our Operations Management (OM) (our version of Incident Commanders) we have Site Directors (SD), Multi Site Directors (MD), Assistant Directors (AD), Directors (DIR). SDs are selected & appointed based on training and life experience by local leadership (Region/State). MDs are appointed and promoted at Division level. ADs and DIRs are appointed and promoted by NHQ.

Salvation Army also has a similar version of grade and rank within their system.

Both systems require training, PD, and life experience to advance. Just as CAP has multiple speciality tracks, ARC allows volunteers and employees to have multiple GAPs. For instance mine are OM/SD, ER/LG/SV, IP/FSI/SV, and SS/SPS/SA.

This is all getting a bit silly.  CAP could dispose of Senior Member grade tomorrow and most of us would keep volunteering our hearts out.  The same people who truly contribute now would keep on truckin' and most of my Senior Members wouldn't notice the difference since they usually wear polo shirts anyway. SM, NCO, or officer makes almost no difference to me.

In fact, most other volunteer groups do just fine without rank or grade. Most have a few position based titles and a lot of people who are just glad to help. Red Cross, ARES, and SAR teams are a few examples.

I'm not completely knocking SM CAP grade; I've done PD and served in some challenging roles (currently commanding a 140-ish member squadron and wing communications director).  As a result they let me wear gold oak leaves on some of my CAP uniforms.  Change my title and take away the oak leaves and I'll keep doing exactly what I did before.

[Elioron]

As you mentioned we (American Red Cross) have position based titles (local role is not always the same as national and for the purpose of discussion I am only addressing our Disaster Ops Human Resources System national roles). We do not wear grade; however, it is known who is in charge and their rank.

All of our volunteers and most employees start as service associates in their chosen group (Individual Client Services, Mass Care, External Relations Information and Planning, Logistics, Ops Mgmt, Disaster Srvs Technology, Staff Services)  and activity (Ind Client Srvs: Client Casework, Disaster Health Services, Disaster Mental Health Services, Recovery Planning & Assistance, Mass Care: Feeding, Sheltering, Bulk Distribution, Safe and Well, External Relations: Government Ops, Community Partnerships, Fund Raising, Public Affairs, Info and Planning: Disaster Assessment, Information Dissemination, Financial & Statistical Information, Finance, Logistics: Facilities, In kind donations, Warehousing, Transportation, Life Safety Asset Protection, Procurement Staff Services: Local Community Volunteers, Staff Relations, Training, Staff Wellness, Staff Planning and Support, Disaster Srvs Technology: Communications, Networking, Customer Service, Computer Ops.

Once volunteers and employees have met the basic requirements for their group and activity, they become a service associate. From there local leadership can make anyone that has the training and life experience a supervisor. To promote from SV to Manager, there is a promotion packet and oral interview process. This must be signed off on by the division. From MN someone may promote to Generalist Manager and then Chief after going through the respective process and approval from NHQ.  This comes out to SA-SV-MN-GM-CH. This is the same for nearly every group and activity.

Lets take Staff Services as an example. If someone is in Staff Planning and Support their title is Staff Services (SS)/Staff Planning & Support (SPS)/Position so SS/SPS/SA,SV,MN,GM,CH.

For our Operations Management (OM) (our version of Incident Commanders) we have Site Directors (SD), Multi Site Directors (MD), Assistant Directors (AD), Directors (DIR). SDs are selected & appointed based on training and life experience by local leadership (Region/State). MDs are appointed and promoted at Division level. ADs and DIRs are appointed and promoted by NHQ.

Salvation Army also has a similar version of grade and rank within their system.

Both systems require training, PD, and life experience to advance. Just as CAP has multiple speciality tracks, ARC allows volunteers and employees to have multiple GAPs. For instance mine are OM/SD, ER/LG/SV, IP/FSI/SV, and SS/SPS/SA.

This is all getting a bit silly.  CAP could dispose of Senior Member grade tomorrow and most of us would keep volunteering our hearts out.  The same people who truly contribute now would keep on truckin' and most of my Senior Members wouldn't notice the difference since they usually wear polo shirts anyway. SM, NCO, or officer makes almost no difference to me.

In fact, most other volunteer groups do just fine without rank or grade. Most have a few position based titles and a lot of people who are just glad to help. Red Cross, ARES, and SAR teams are a few examples.

I'm not completely knocking SM CAP grade; I've done PD and served in some challenging roles (currently commanding a 140-ish member squadron and wing communications director).  As a result they let me wear gold oak leaves on some of my CAP uniforms.  Change my title and take away the oak leaves and I'll keep doing exactly what I did before.

In reality, I think having no grade would be better than separating based on education.  Separation puts artificial limits on people.

I've always considered grade in CAP as little more than an acknowledgement of service - whether AD service or CAP service.  Actual authority rests with the positions we hold.  I haven't seen much confusion when I've described it that way.

[Flying Pig]

I agree.  In my 20 years in CAP I always viewed rank the same way I viewed the ribbons on someone's chest.  Unlike the military, our rank holds no authority in or out of CAP just like our ribbons don't carry any authority.   We operate in a position based operation.    By adding enlisted rank, we have done nothing more than add several more "medals".

[Private Investigator]

I agree.  In my 20 years in CAP I always viewed rank the same way I viewed the ribbons on someone's chest.  Unlike the military, our rank holds no authority in or out of CAP just like our ribbons don't carry any authority.   We operate in a position based operation.    By adding enlisted rank, we have done nothing more than add several more "medals".

It is the CAP way of giving recognition. Also by looking at CAP ribbons you know if the person is an ES Guy, CP type or AE nerd. Same with CAP rank. You know their participation. A 30 year member who is a 1st Lt is not comparable to a 30 year member who is a Lt Col. Of course YMMV. 

[Private Investigator]

D'oh,

[Private Investigator]

I don't agree with limiting CAP officers to college grads.  We have to remember we are a volunteer organization, not a professional military.  People come and go at their pleasure.

Speaking for myself, I have extensive professional supervisor and management experience in the private sector.  I have never earned a college degree for various reasons.  Should I be barred from a command position simply because I don't have a piece of sheepskin proclaiming I spent an ungodly amount of money and four years of my life learning about ancient ritual drum circles of the middle-Mongolian tribes or something?

I have mix feelings. Why not let everyone be an officer because that is a way to reward their volunteerism. On the other hand some CAP officers need to know their limitations. Like in little league some dads know that they have no skill in baseball so they stay in the bleachers or work the snack bar. But I had a dad who wanted to help me coach, that did not even own a glove. 

CAP Squadron Commanders vary greatly. When I was a Group Commander I had really great ones who got what they deserve and I had poor ones that got fired because not everyone has what it takes to be a Squadron Commander, even with multiple degrees or working in a cubicle for a Fortune 500 company.   

[Elioron]

I don't agree with limiting CAP officers to college grads.  We have to remember we are a volunteer organization, not a professional military.  People come and go at their pleasure.

Speaking for myself, I have extensive professional supervisor and management experience in the private sector.  I have never earned a college degree for various reasons.  Should I be barred from a command position simply because I don't have a piece of sheepskin proclaiming I spent an ungodly amount of money and four years of my life learning about ancient ritual drum circles of the middle-Mongolian tribes or something?

I have mix feelings. Why not let everyone be an officer because that is a way to reward their volunteerism. On the other hand some CAP officers need to know their limitations. Like in little league some dads know that they have no skill in baseball so they stay in the bleachers or work the snack bar. But I had a dad who wanted to help me coach, that did not even own a glove. 

CAP Squadron Commanders vary greatly. When I was a Group Commander I had really great ones who got what they deserve and I had poor ones that got fired because not everyone has what it takes to be a Squadron Commander, even with multiple degrees or working in a cubicle for a Fortune 500 company.   

I think the point is included in your response: a 4-year degree does nothing to show if they are fit for command.  Some are, some aren't.  Same with those without degrees: some are fit for command, some aren't.  It isn't about the degree.  Requiring a degree is telling those without one that they are limited and unfit for command.  As someone without a degree that was decorated for performance while in a command position, I am an example of why we shouldn't go down that road.  I'm sure that there are many others.  At the same time, the worst commanders I've known personally had 4 or 6 year degrees.

Forget about dividing our our volunteers by degree.  Command positions should be chosen based on the best person available, and by having more people available you increase the chances of getting better people.

[THRAWN]

"In reality, I think having no grade would be better than separating based on education.  Separation puts artificial limits on people.

I've always considered grade in CAP as little more than an acknowledgement of service - whether AD service or CAP service.  Actual authority rests with the positions we hold.  I haven't seen much confusion when I've described it that way." (emphasis mine)

Scott,
Exactly. That's the reason I've always been all for going the way of the CGAux when it comes to SM grade. Make the grade reflect the position. There are far too many LTCs staggering about who have little or no clue about even the basics of command or strategic planning, but get them in front of a broken IC7200 and they turn into Rain Man.

[Storm Chaser]

I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree. Even in the private sector, where experience and qualifications are more important, there are many positions that require a college degree to apply or get promoted. Whether you want to admit it or not, college is important and having a degree is a big accomplishment.

In the Air Force, we have a highly educated enlisted force. Many of our NCOs have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees. A few even have PhDs. The Air Force believes in education and provides many opportunities for it, which means it must be important. A college degree, while one of the requirements to become an officer, is not the main distinction between enlisted and officers. They both have different roles and are trained for different functions. But education is important for both.

That said, I doubt CAP will ever require a bachelor's degree to become an officer. But that doesn't mean education is not important to CAP. The reason we have PD, to include courses like SLS, CLS, RSC, etc. is so that our members can continue learning. I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

[ol'fido]

If I ever attend a wing conference again I want to make sure Im an officer. I will not tolerate eating with enlisted types.  Perhaps we could have two banquets. Officers can have our banquet first while the unwashed enlisted serve us.  Then we can retire to the library and smoke cigars, listen to classicsl music and discuss world affairs while the enlisted have their banquet, chocked full of debautchery, alcohol and heavy metal music.  Silly enlisted. 
Hmmmm.... well, maybe that enlisted track wouldnt be too bad?

"I say, old chap, let us continue to discuss proper form usage and paperwork distribution while we savor a fine brandy while those CAP NCO's have their "fun".  Pip pip.  Cheerio."

"Bling them well up" as well.

[Eclipse]

I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree. Even in the private sector, where experience and qualifications are more important, there are many positions that require a college degree to apply or get promoted. Whether you want to admit it or not, college is important and having a degree is a big accomplishment.

I have found the inverse to be true as well.

Being an "accomplishment" does not equal being "important".  There are thousands of people with who majored in Romance Languages with a minor in Early Latin History
who wil be happy to up-size your fries if you'd like.

CAP is supposed to be a performance culture, you start putting in the institutional bigotry and segregation of NCO/Officer degree/non-degree, etc., and it's dead.   

[Cliff_Chambliss]

To assume that a CAP NCO is going to become the backbone of the organization is a dream.  Witness the US Army's failure during the Vietnam Conflict with the "Shake & Bake NCO Program".  They would identify promising young men in Basic and AIT Training cycles and route them to a 26 week long NCO school and upon completion send them off to Vietnam as E5 & a few E6 Combat Arms Squad Leaders.  It took many years after Vietnam for the NCO Corps to recover from that mess.

A good NCO is not a "book child" They have spent years becoming the expert, and the boots on the ground guy and master of their trade.   As a former Regimental Commander of mine was fond of stating "Officers command but the NCO's run".  Just how in the H*** does the CAP plan to do that?

CAP already has a meaningless officer rank structure based more on the GOB principal than anything else.  (Why else would a requirement for promotion include attendance at wing/regional conferences?  Go and Listen to empty speeches, eat a rubber chicken, hold a drink whether you actually drink it or not, but ya gotta be seen to get the ticket punched for the next promotion.)

I think it's about time to do away with all CAP rank across the board.

[Storm Chaser]

I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree. Even in the private sector, where experience and qualifications are more important, there are many positions that require a college degree to apply or get promoted. Whether you want to admit it or not, college is important and having a degree is a big accomplishment.

I have found the inverse to be true as well.

Being an "accomplishment" does not equal being "important".  There are thousands of people with who majored in Romance Languages with a minor in Early Latin History
who wil be happy to up-size your fries if you'd like.

CAP is supposed to be a performance culture, you start putting in the institutional bigotry and segregation of NCO/Officer degree/non-degree, etc., and it's dead.

Now you're debating about whether all degrees are created equal; no they're not. And neither are all colleges or universities. That doesn't make having a degree less important. Degrees may not always be required, but that doesn't diminish their value.

But again, I've never suggested or even agree with that we should require degrees for CAP members. Neither did I suggested the division between NCO and officer, only that if we were going to have both, then their roles should be defined.

Your comment about CAP having a "performance culture" is interesting, as it's not that hard to get promoted in CAP. And once promoted, there's really no performance requirements to keep the grade, hence Lt Cols serving as snack officers under the command of 1st Lts.

[Panache]

I have mix feelings. Why not let everyone be an officer because that is a way to reward their volunteerism. On the other hand some CAP officers need to know their limitations.

I agree 100%.  I will use myself as an example:  We (the wife and I) are childless.  As such, I have little experience with children.  For this reason, I feel that, at this point, I lack both the needed experience and training on being the leader of a composite squadron full of cadets.  Maybe in the future this will change, but at present I feel that this is the case.  So, I work at staff jobs and stick with the Senior side of things, assisting with the supervision of cadets.

Just another reason I think the Warrant Officer grades should be expanded and utilized, with the "commissioned" ranks (2nd Lieutenant and up) being reserved for actual command positions.

I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing; those usually come from people who don't have a college degree.

That's because nobody who just put themselves into $40,000 worth of debt and can't find a job would be loathe to admit that maybe getting the Communications Degree was a bad idea.  (I would know, I've conducted employment interviews with a couple.)

In the Air Force, we have a highly educated enlisted force. Many of our NCOs have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees. A few even have PhDs. The Air Force believes in education and provides many opportunities for it, which means it must be important.

Irreverent.  We are not the Air Force.  The Air Force is a paid career force.  We are an unpaid civilian volunteer force. 

To assume that a CAP NCO is going to become the backbone of the organization is a dream.  Witness the US Army's failure during the Vietnam Conflict with the "Shake & Bake NCO Program".  They would identify promising young men in Basic and AIT Training cycles and route them to a 26 week long NCO school and upon completion send them off to Vietnam as E5 & a few E6 Combat Arms Squad Leaders.  It took many years after Vietnam for the NCO Corps to recover from that mess.

Agreed.  I assumed that's why only those who were RealMilitary NCO's could become CAP NCO's.  One of our members was a Army First Sergeant, and wanted to become a NCO when he joined CAP.  But he was flat-out told that he would be more use as an officer and he wouldn't be able to progress as an NCO.  Hopefully the new program resolves this.

[Storm Chaser]

In the Air Force, we have a highly educated enlisted force. Many of our NCOs have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees. A few even have PhDs. The Air Force believes in education and provides many opportunities for it, which means it must be important.

Irreverent.  We are not the Air Force.  The Air Force is a paid career force.  We are an unpaid civilian volunteer force.

"Irreverent"? I think you meant "irrelevant". If so, I never suggested that we were the Air Force. I've put enough unpaid, volunteer hours into CAP to know that very well. But that doesn't invalidate my comments. If you're going to refute my comments, please don't take them out of context. Read the whole post.

Several other posters have implied that the main difference between an NCO and an officer is the college degree. I was clarifying that, while a college degree is required to get a commission, it is not the main difference between them. And I also stated that we have plenty of Air Force NCOs that have undergraduate and graduate degrees. Since I never, I repeat, never suggested that CAP officers should be required to have a college degree, I'm not sure why people keep implying that I did.

What I did do was defend post-high school education. If you don't agree that education is important, then that's your prerogative. Plenty of people, private companies and government agencies do agree. I never said it was the most important thing, only that it was important. But again, not important enough to make it a requirement for CAP, except for those positions/specialties requiring one (legal, chaplain, etc.).

[SMSgt. Grosvenor]

All, as a current CAP NCO (former Navy Chief Petty Officer), and one who really wants to see this new program take off, let's look at this from another direction. I tend to agree that grade structure in a civilian volunteer organization can lead to unique situations that create difficulties, egos abound. Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization, especially when the organization has interaction with true military organizations on a regular basis. These individuals come to the CAP with very unique qualifications that don't readily surface in the civilian workplace. Why not identify, recognize these individuals, exploit there capabilities for the good of the organization and most important, provide a developmental process for their professional growth and accompanied recognition for the effort they do provide the organization. Yes, some of us don't have aspirations for command, but we provide a very valuable resource for commanders from a unique perspective gained by our military experience. Some have stated that Officers manage the process and NCO's make the process work. If you examine the current military structure, you may find that senior NCO's are now managing the process as well as making the process work.
I for one am quite proud of the military career that I am now retired from and enthusiastically look forward to continuing my tenure in the CAP as a Non-Commissioned Officer providing the best for the organization that I can, which incidentally, has NO limitations (command or otherwise) from my perspective. :clap:

[Elioron]

I keep reading comments about how a college degree means nothing;

Please note that every time I've made that statement it was qualified to specifically refer to predicting who will be a good leader.  That shouldn't diminish the value of education overall - that's not the purpose of most degrees.

But again, I've never suggested or even agree with that we should require degrees for CAP members. Neither did I suggested the division between NCO and officer, only that if we were going to have both, then their roles should be defined.

I believe we are in total agreement in the overall topic.

Your comment about CAP having a "performance culture" is interesting, as it's not that hard to get promoted in CAP. And once promoted, there's really no performance requirements to keep the grade, hence Lt Cols serving as snack officers under the command of 1st Lts.

I don't really care about lower grades in command over higher.  When I see a Lt Col my thought is simply that they are a good resource of knowledge, not much else.  I look to other things to determine what they can do, like Specialty ratings and PD levels.  Grade is an acknowledgement of service, and I don't see the benefit of taking that acknowledgement away.  This is yet another necessary difference between us as a voluntary organization and the military as a way to motivate members.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Why have a CAP NCO program? Capturing and exploiting the unique capabilities of former and current military NCO's (senior enlisted personnel for those that don't understand the full meaning of NCO) can only be beneficial for the organization, especially when the organization has interaction with true military organizations on a regular basis.

Can a former NCO not stomach being a CAP officer and doing the same?

These individuals come to the CAP with very unique qualifications that don't readily surface in the civilian workplace. Why not identify, recognize these individuals, exploit there capabilities for the good of the organization and most important, provide a developmental process for their professional growth and accompanied recognition for the effort they do provide the organization.

They have the same option I do - the CAP Officer Grades.

Yes, some of us don't have aspirations for command, but we provide a very valuable resource for commanders from a unique perspective gained by our military experience.

Most CAP officers don't have aspirations for command either.

Some have stated that Officers manage the process and NCO's make the process work. If you examine the current military structure, you may find that senior NCO's are now managing the process as well as making the process work.

In CAP we don't have this distinction, and we don't need it.

I for one am quite proud of the military career that I am now retired from and enthusiastically look forward to continuing my tenure in the CAP as a Non-Commissioned Officer providing the best for the organization that I can, which incidentally, has NO limitations (command or otherwise) from my perspective. :clap:

I thank you for your service.

[Panache]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

[RogueLeader]

Apparently, if I'm reading this right, the "new" NCO program will still be restricted to prior-military NCO's (which I feel is a good thing).

http://capmembers.com/national_commanders_blog/?caps_new_nco_program&show=entry&blogID=1135

For now at least.