NCO Program Launched

[Eclipse]

What about former cadets? I'm all for a clean start, but if someone rolls over a few years/right away after being a cadet, they are typically at least 1-2 years ahead in CAP knowledge than the general new off the street member.

You can have a pass to CP tech, but no grade if you make it to Phase IV.

[lordmonar]

What about former cadets? I'm all for a clean start, but if someone rolls over a few years/right away after being a cadet, they are typically at least 1-2 years ahead in CAP knowledge than the general new off the street member.

You can have a pass to CP tech, but no grade if you make it to Phase IV.

-1
Just because you graduate high school does not mean you are qualified to teach middle school.  I have always hated the advanced PD for the higher grade cadets.  JMHO.

[Eclipse]

-1
Just because you graduate high school does not mean you are qualified to teach middle school.  I have always hated the advanced PD for the higher grade cadets.  JMHO.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Its sounds good on paper, but very little of what cadets experience or understand directly translates to being a senior member, and only
a small percentage ever are able to use that experience in a meaningful way when they first transition.  Most dark-siders struggle just to find their
place when they realize how much of the CP they were wholly unaware of.

There's always exceptions, but those are few and far between.

OK - back to everyone starts the same.

[lordmonar]

Well then....this ties back to my idea about rank in general.

Everyone is a Flight Officer based on their PD level (FO-1, FO-2, etc) and rank is reserved for people in command slots. 

Leave the command slot....take off the rank and go back to being FO.

[Eclipse]

Where do I sign?

[AlphaSigOU]

I'd expect a new CAPR 35-5 to be published shortly by NHQ. (I may be a newly-minted wing director of PD but haven't been put on the distro lists yet.)

[Flying Pig]

No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO"

Issue #1

It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.

What!!!??  How did I not notice that?   Drop and start pushin' nasty enlisted man!

[THRAWN]

For the love of all that is bad and unholy....

Here's a crazy idea: scrap ALL SM ranks and titles and do it like the CGAux does it. Simple, straight to the point. You know by looking at a member just who it is that is able to sign the checks.

[abdsp51]

This can be incorporated into the current system relatively easily.  We wouldn't need to a major overhaul and dropping the current system.

[a2capt]

Why was the program eliminated back then? What was the reasoning?

What changed?

[Eclipse]

Actual information.  Why is af.mil more detailed on this then CAP's website?

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467324/new-nco-corps-structure-for-civil-air-patrol-announced.aspx

"WASHINGTON (AFNS) --
The Civil Air Patrol took a step forward Oct. 17, with the signing and approval to restructure their noncommissioned officer corps to align with the Air Force NCO corps.

For the past 72 years, members of the Civil Air Patrol volunteer forces have completed three key missions – emergency services, aerospace education and cadet programs, with the guidance and expertise of their NCO corps.

Members of the CAP Board of Governors and their commander received approval on the proposal to restructure the NCO corps, which previously didn't allow rank progression within the CAP. Now, with the newly-established NCO corps structure, NCOs will be able to progress and promote through the ranks similar to the Air Force.

"It is no small task to create a framework for a professional volunteer force, and I'm very proud of the way everyone came together to create a workable proposal," said Daniel Ginsberg, the Air Force Manpower and Reserve Affairs assistant secretary.     

The current design of the NCO corps in the CAP only allows former active-duty NCOs to be a part of the corps, with no upgrade training for promotion within the ranks. The newly-signed corps structure will mirror the Air Force NCO force structure with an established process to promote and develop NCOs.

The one similar, but most immediate noticeable change as a result of the restructure is the uniform. The CAP Corps will use a chevron system similar to the Air Force, but the difference will include the CAP designating itself with the letters "C-A-P" and a propeller will be in place of the star on the chevrons.

Other changes within the corps will include:

- Provide CAP commanders with increased access to the professional military skills, training and experience of former NCOs.

- Train and advise non-prior service members of CAP in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management, as well as allow them to become NCOs.

The objective of the restructure of the corps will bolster the CAP's mission capability and readiness to fulfill their congressionally-mandated missions.

"The NCO corps is the backbone of any organization and brings a wealth of information to the table," said Maj. Gen. Chuck Carr, the Civil Air Patrol commander. "This is the start of success."

[AlphaSigOU]

Why was the program eliminated back then? What was the reasoning?

What changed?

There are a couple of former CAP NCOs (of the Ooooold CAP NCO program) here on CT, but don't know their 'handles' off hand. I haven't received further guidance from NHQ, but expect to see some info soon.

[Elioron]

-1
Just because you graduate high school does not mean you are qualified to teach middle school.  I have always hated the advanced PD for the higher grade cadets.  JMHO.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Its sounds good on paper, but very little of what cadets experience or understand directly translates to being a senior member, and only
a small percentage ever are able to use that experience in a meaningful way when they first transition.  Most dark-siders struggle just to find their
place when they realize how much of the CP they were wholly unaware of.

There's always exceptions, but those are few and far between.

OK - back to everyone starts the same.

If a Phase IV cadet hasn't done everything a SM has to do for the Tech rating in CP, there's something very, very wrong.  Senior Rating is beyond some of them (it's also beyond many SMs involved in CP), but Tech Rating is a fairly low bar.

[lordmonar]

NON CONCURE.

It took me 20 minutes or so to learn and be able to do everything I need to do for the Tech Rating....and I still had to wait six months. (or what ever it is).

IF......and I say this with all sincerity we replaced the Phase IV SDA with earn the CP Tech Rating....then maybe you would have something....but as it is now...there is nothing that requires a Spaatz cadet to do or know any of the requirements of the CP Tech Rating.

[Elioron]

NON CONCURE.

It took me 20 minutes or so to learn and be able to do everything I need to do for the Tech Rating....and I still had to wait six months. (or what ever it is).

IF......and I say this with all sincerity we replaced the Phase IV SDA with earn the CP Tech Rating....then maybe you would have something....but as it is now...there is nothing that requires a Spaatz cadet to do or know any of the requirements of the CP Tech Rating.

Have you looked at it recently?  Tech rating really only requires understanding what the Cadet Program is.  No SM with only a Tech rating in CP meets these requirements better than a Spaatz cadet.

Which requirements do you think they wouldn't have met?

[lordmonar]

The six months working with a mentor.
Taking the test.
Test Security.
Staffing two outside activities.

My point is.....if you make a SM jump through hoops......we need to make our Spaatz cadets jump through the same hoops.

Just going through the program.....does not mean you understand how the program is supposed to be managed.

Sure a Spaatz cadet has the ability to manage the program....but so did I when I came in as a SM in 2003.....but I still had to jump the hoop.

[JeffDG]

I've thought for some time that one solution to the "Advanced Grade without knowledge" would be to have special skills, etc. count for a waiver of time-in-grade, but that's all.

So...if you're a CFI, you start off as a SM, but you can skip the 6 months TIG for 2nd Lt. (once you finish Level 1), and once you get a Tech Rating you can get your 1st Lt immediately, and when you get your Level 2, your Captain.  That way, when you see a Captain, you know they have a certain level of PD training.

[lordmonar]

Six of one/half dozen of the other.

I personally thought that we just need the Advanced Promotees to "make up" their missing PD in a timely manner...say on year per level.

So a Retired Lt Col would have four year to get his level IV or he gets demoted to the level that his PD is at.

That is if we just don't make everyone FO's and give rank based on positions.

[Elioron]

The six months working with a mentor.

Not a requirement.  #6 is to define "mentoring", but that's as close as it gets.  Either way, the the hell have they been doing if they haven't been mentoring cadets since at least becoming a SNCO?!?!

Taking the test.

They take a lot more tests than you did, and the Tech rating test is to ensure you have a vague idea of what they just lived.

Test Security.

Really?  By this time they have become quite familiar with test security.

Staffing two outside activities.

Again, how do you have a cadet who hasn't staffed two activities by the time they get their Earhart?!?!  How do you allow a Phase IV cadet to promote without being staff at something?!

My point is.....if you make a SM jump through hoops......we need to make our Spaatz cadets jump through the same hoops.

Just going through the program.....does not mean you understand how the program is supposed to be managed.

Sure a Spaatz cadet has the ability to manage the program....but so did I when I came in as a SM in 2003.....but I still had to jump the hoop.

A Spaatz cadet has far more leadership training and experience than most SM Captains.  The hoops you had to jump through for a Tech rating are nothing compared to what a Spaatz has to do.  Also, the Tech rating doesn't mean you can manage anything - that is more what the Senior rating is about - but a Phase IV cadet has been managing the program for at least a year.  If they haven't, it is a failure of their CDC and most cadets won't be able to progress anyway.

[Eclipse]

A Spaatz cadet has far more leadership training and experience than most SM Captains. 

Some?  Maybe.  Most.  No way.

Even the oldest ones are still kids maturing, and none has ever had the responsibility that the senior members do.
For example, being the Cadet Commander of an encampment does not equal being the commander, etc., etc.