Reclassification of BDU uniform

[oak2007]

With the complete transition by the Air Force to the ABU uniform, should the BDU uniform be reclassified as a corporate uniform?

[Walkman]

There's been a lot of thoughts on that. IMO, this wouldn't happen unless we were able to wear ABUs. It does make some sense in that most of the AD forces are fully transitioned into other uniforms, and it would be distinctive. That being said, there's some solid logic in the thoughts that we don't need a field uniform for SAR that's camo and that the BBDUs are a better choice in that environment.

(Now that I've made the obvious and easy answer to this question, I'm going to sit back, grab some popcorn and watch as this thread devolves into another dead horse beating.)

[Майор Хаткевич]

With the complete transition by the Air Force to the ABU uniform, should the BDU uniform be reclassified as a corporate uniform?

Thread, meet Dead Horse.


It is an Air Force Style Uniform. Our uniforms are controlled by the Air Force.

[Brad]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14393.0

[RogueLeader]

Search dead horse on captalk, and a 95%+ will be about ABU and a transition or the lack thereof.  We have also debated if BDU's would become a corporate uniform as you inquired.  The short answer: NOT BLOODY LIKELY.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Most excellent. 4/4 of responses either have a "dead horse" image or mention.

[Critical AOA]

Most excellent. 4/4 of responses either have a "dead horse" image or mention.

It is the official CAP Talk hearaldy symbol.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As long as any segment of the U.S. Military still uses them (and a very small number of USCG personnel do), it's not happening.

[lordmonar]

I don't think it is going to happen...because we are focusing on getting the ABUs and they are not worrying about what to do with the BDU or BBDUs until a decision on the ABUs is forthcomming.

I don't think it has any bearing on weather the National Parks service or anyone else is still wearing them.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't think it is going to happen...because we are focusing on getting the ABUs and they are not worrying about what to do with the BDU or BBDUs until a decision on the ABUs is forthcomming.

I don't see us ever getting the ABU's, but that's a different breed of dead horse.

[Sapper168]

As long as any segment of the U.S. Military still uses them (and a very small number of USCG personnel do), it's not happening.

...And a very large section of the USCG wears a uniform that looks almost exactly like the corporate Blue BDU, even down to white on blue tapes and badges, and i don't see a a resistance to wearing them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_Dress_Uniform

[FlyTiger77]

I don't think it is going to happen...because we are focusing on getting the ABUs and they are not worrying about what to do with the BDU or BBDUs until a decision on the ABUs is forthcomming.

I don't see us ever getting the ABU's, but that's a different breed of dead horse.

I wonder what the record is for the number of different dead horses beaten in one particular CAP Talk thread?

[Cool Mace]

I don't think it is going to happen...because we are focusing on getting the ABUs and they are not worrying about what to do with the BDU or BBDUs until a decision on the ABUs is forthcomming.

I don't see us ever getting the ABU's, but that's a different breed of dead horse.

I wonder what the record is for the number of different dead horses beaten in one particular CAP Talk thread?

Should we go for a record? We should be pretty close by now. 

[SarDragon]

Should we go for a record? We should be pretty close by now. 

Why waste the bandwidth? Twelve posts isn't even getting warmed up. There are threads on here, talking about BDUs, that have over 300 posts.

[a2capt]

"waste" the bandwidth.. always makes me laugh anymore. It's not limited or anything. Not like there's a bank of it, the next guy will get some if you don't "use" it.

[RogueLeader]

Should we go for a record? We should be pretty close by now. 

Why waste the bandwidth? Twelve posts isn't even getting warmed up. There are threads on here, talking about BDUs, that have over 300 posts.

I think he was talking about dead horse beating references. Not posts.

[SarDragon]

Should we go for a record? We should be pretty close by now. 

Why waste the bandwidth? Twelve posts isn't even getting warmed up. There are threads on here, talking about BDUs, that have over 300 posts.

I think he was talking about dead horse beating references. Not posts.

I'm sure some of those previously mentioned threads have far more dead horse references than this one.

[ol'fido]

Dave,

Maybe send a PM to all new users. You know the standard "Welcome to CT, read our conditions and standards boards, be adverarial if you must but be polite, use good grammar and spelling(as much as possible), and by the way, if you want to ask about ABUs, BDUs, or any other camouflage uniform in a CAP context, please check out the 50-60 other threads on here that deal with this subject. If you do ask the "when or if" question, please prepare to be flamed. Thank you for visiting CT". 

Randy

[SarDragon]

I have a slightly variable canned Grammar Cop PM that I send out to likely candidates. I get three responses: Thank you, Piss off, and Excuses why they can't make readable posts. Occasionally, someone will even accuse me of picking on them, and threaten to complain to the Mods.

That said, I am not a Mod. I have their ear, and have reported posts, and made other recommendations (Tick-tock comes to mind), but I have no power beyond that.

Your suggested message is hilarious, but I think it would ultimately fail. If we can't get compliance with a gently worded public post, or the more harshly worded public humiliation rendered after many more gentle hints, a PM will be a wasted effort.

[ranviper]

I am so tired of the uniform whining and begging for something new or the ABU's or whatever. I just want to be like listen, be quiet and be happy you're part of a cool organization that actually WEARS a uniform, or many rather. Enjoy what you do, stop complaining. They are perfectly functional uniform for what we do.

I do agree with most that woodland BDU doesn't make a lot of sense being in the woods TRYING to be seen, and that the BBDU would be a better option for that, but frankly, I don't care. I'll wear what I'm told to. Besides, I spend most of my cap time in my flight suit in a cockpit. Yippie. The fact is if we are going to wear a uniform at all, someone, somewhere, whether it be special forces, regular military, or law enforcement, is going to be wearing the same thing.

/rant

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The only changes I would make would be to the BBDU uniform:

Leather hook & loop nameplate (which the AF briefly experimented with)

Metal collar insignia (AF doesn't use it, plus it's already authorised for the BBDU cap)

With just those two things you've saved time and money on nametape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape, and embroidered collar insignia.

[Garibaldi]

The only changes I would make would be to the BBDU uniform:

Leather hook & loop nameplate (which the AF briefly experimented with)

Metal collar insignia (AF doesn't use it, plus it's already authorised for the BBDU cap)

With just those two things you've saved time and money on nametape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape, and embroidered collar insignia.

I thought metal grade insignia was NOT authorized for the BBDU hat, only embroidered.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No, that's the funny thing and another maddening illogic about 39-1...the only place we can wear metal grade is on the BBDU hat.

You figure it out.  I can't.

[Майор Хаткевич]

No, that's the funny thing and another maddening illogic about 39-1...the only place we can wear metal grade is on the BBDU hat.

You figure it out.  I can't.

I had cloth put on, but then when it looked like crap, ripped it off and got a metal piece.

[BSU Commander]

+1

[MKing]

Ok, here's my two cents. Yes it is true that BDU isn't as easy to find anymore, yes the AF does wear the ABU, and yes we could switch to ABU or even go straight over to the BBDU (which as said earlier in this thread is probably a good idea) The issue we have is that National has chosen to stonewall. To my knowledge the USAF has already said we can wear the ABU as far as they're concerned. But with the USAF looking at replacing ABU in favor of something such as Multicam, we might not switch for a long time. I really don't see why all the dead horses have to be beaten this way. We have a job to do, new uniform or old uniform doesn't matter. We should just be happy they let us wear a uniform. 
You may now continue beating the dead horse
-F.O. King

[Eclipse]

Yes it is true that BDU isn't as easy to find anymore,

No, it is not true, except perhaps in the limited case of cadets and a few seniors who may have been getting used surplus from unit sources
supplied from DRMO, and in a lot of those cases, because of the USAF and other services' retirement of woodland camo, many of those units, for now,
are swimming in uniforms.

For the average member, who can't spell AAFES, has never been to an MCSS, and has always obtained their uniforms through local or online sources,
there is absolutely no shortage.  Further, the way most members wear their uniforms, a set of BDUs can last ten years and still look like new.

The issue we have is that National has chosen to stonewall. To my knowledge the USAF has already said we can wear the ABU as far as they're concerned.

Cite please.  There is no indication that CAP has ever even officially made the request, let alone been denied or is stonewalling.

[RogueLeader]

But with the USAF looking at replacing ABU in favor of something such as Multicam,

Has often been said, but without evidence.  Please cite.  While multicams are worn outside the wire in A-stan, that does not mean they are going to be changing uniforms stateside.  Which is another dead horse that has been beaten.

[Ned]

The issue we have is that National has chosen to stonewall.

Excuse me? 

Did you just say that National has "delayed or blocked a request by refusing to answer questions or giving evasive replies"?

Really?

On what do you base this assertion?

Which of the hard working volunteers or professional staff at National has treated our members so disprespectfully?  Please tell me.

Or were you just accusing our leaders of unethical behavior without any basis beyond rumor and speculation?

The next time you bemoan the fact that our "best and brightest" do not seem to aspire to national leadership, reflect that at least one small part of that might be because our leadership is forced to endure these kinds of public and painful accusations by members.

To my knowledge the USAF has already said we can wear the ABU as far as they're concerned.

That's odd.  The last four or five times I spoke with the CAP-USAF commander on this topic that is not what he said.  I wonder where the miscommunication lies.

The AF position is that CAP wear of the ABU is specifically prohibited by DoD policy.  The AF has encouraged us to request a waiver from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and I personally believe that the AF will be supportive of our request, but the packet is still being put together by CAP staffers.


Ned Lee

[Walkman]

Ned, I've just gotta' say I love it when you swoop into a thread like this and hit the facts.  :clap:

(edit for typo)

[JeffDG]

Ned, I've just gotta' say I love it when you swoop into a thread like this and hit the facts.  :clap:

(edit for typo)

Facts are meaningless.  I mean, you can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.  Facts schmacts.
-Homer J. Simpson

[Critical AOA]

Dang... it is amazing how someone can make their first post ever one that gets such a forceful slap down.   

[RiverAux]

The AF position is that CAP wear of the ABU is specifically prohibited by DoD policy.  The AF has encouraged us to request a waiver from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and I personally believe that the AF will be supportive of our request, but the packet is still being put together by CAP staffers.

Hmm, this appears to be new information.  I think most of us here were under the impression that the AF had total independent control over this issue and that it would only take an ok from them to authorize CAP to wear AF-style uniforms. 

Is this an existing generic DoD policy that prohibits others from wearing DoD uniforms that CAP has always gotten waivers from in regards to AF-style uniforms?  Or is this something new?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Dang... it is amazing how someone can make their first post ever one that gets such a forceful slap down.   

Online forums have existed in their current for for at least 10 years now. Forum etiquette would lead to one SEARCHING for said topic, which would find many an answer. 

[SARDOC]

The AF position is that CAP wear of the ABU is specifically prohibited by DoD policy.  The AF has encouraged us to request a waiver from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and I personally believe that the AF will be supportive of our request, but the packet is still being put together by CAP staffers.

Hmm, this appears to be new information.  I think most of us here were under the impression that the AF had total independent control over this issue and that it would only take an ok from them to authorize CAP to wear AF-style uniforms. 

Is this an existing generic DoD policy that prohibits others from wearing DoD uniforms that CAP has always gotten waivers from in regards to AF-style uniforms?  Or is this something new?

This was published quite some time ago and found a blurb on CAP Knowledgebase.  I think it's an absolutely a BULLSTINK excuse since the DoD or the USAF doesn't provide Civil Air Patrol with the Field Uniforms anyway and we get them from various outside vendors and that doesn't change.  We can still buy the new pattern from BDU.com like we do with BDUs now.  That being said.  I don't think we should go to ABU's anyway, I just think their excuse is terrible.  Just come out and say it's a terrible uniform and we aren't doing it.  I think our Emergency Services Teams should all be wearing the BBDU.  Personal Opinion that if we are playing with Civilian ES folks we should at least look like Civilian ES folks.

December 2011   Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.  The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via webstream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.   

[SARDOC]

The AF position is that CAP wear of the ABU is specifically prohibited by DoD policy.  The AF has encouraged us to request a waiver from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and I personally believe that the AF will be supportive of our request, but the packet is still being put together by CAP staffers.

Hi Ned,

Is it the policy that we can not wear the ABU?  The Statement issued by the Civil Air Patrol stated that "DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. "

That would seem to conflict.  Nobody is asking the Air Force to transfer, donate or sell the digitized camouflage uniforms...we are just asking for permission to wear.  Individual members would still be responsible to purchase their own uniforms outside of AAFES (that might be considered DoD sale) 

Like I said in the above post I still disagree with the wear of ABU's, my issue is the reasoning provided is flawed. 

My vote is BBDU's for everybody.

[RiverAux]

SARDOC --- I read the KB statement the same way you do. 

[ranviper]

My vote is BBDU's for everybody.

Mine too. Civilian Law Enforcement use it, why not Civilian ES?

BDU's are stupid to have in the woods whilst TRYING to be seen. And, they look stupid with bright BLUE name tapes.

Sure the USCG uses it, so does the USCG aux, other parts of the military, law enforcement agencies, and so on. Any type of BDU pattern is likely going to be used somewhere, so that's no excuse not to use them. BBDU's just makes sense.

[PHall]

My vote is BBDU's for everybody.

Mine too. Civilian Law Enforcement use it, why not Civilian ES?

BDU's are stupid to have in the woods whilst TRYING to be seen. And, they look stupid with bright BLUE name tapes.

Sure the USCG uses it, so does the USCG aux, other parts of the military, law enforcement agencies, and so on. Any type of BDU pattern is likely going to be used somewhere, so that's no excuse not to use them. BBDU's just makes sense.

If you were wearing your required orange vest over your BDU's while you were in those woods, you would be seen.

[SARDOC]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd than looking like some kind of Militia.  We Don't need Camouflage which  the entire purpose is to conceal.  It's not even the uniform of our parent service anymore as they have long since abandoned it. So either Uniform we wear it's not the uniform of our parent service.  We should look to the future mission of the Civil Air Patrol and get a Uniform that everyone can wear so we look like the team that we should be.

[SARDOC]

If you were wearing your required orange vest over your BDU's while you were in those woods, you would be seen.

I think that instead of wearing a required Orange Vest why not just adopt the california Wing Orange shirt uniform nationwide?

[RogueLeader]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd

Last I checked, we are not part of any ES crowd, a portion works with them, but we are a part of the Air Force, with certain provisions that have already been discussed ad nausium.  We wear BDU's due to that association.  If you want a better fit with professional ES groups, feel free to join them.

[SARDOC]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd

Last I checked, we are not part of any ES crowd, a portion works with them, but we are a part of the Air Force, with certain provisions that have already been discussed ad nausium.  We wear BDU's due to that association.  If you want a better fit with professional ES groups, feel free to join them.

I am part of them.  I'm afraid that you are missing the whole Emergency Services Mission of the Civil Air Patrol.   We are part of that group as well.  We are the Civilian Auxiliary to the Air Force. but wearing the BDU's no more make us a part of them because not even they wear that uniform anymore.  Even if they did allow us to wear the ABU's only a select part of our membership can wear it excluding others taking away the whole team concept of a uniform...but you are right...ad nauseum.

[Critical AOA]

I still am wondering what CAP mission requires us to be camouflaged.   When is it we want to be hidden?

Also, wearing orange over camo just looks like you can't make up your mind.  I want to hide... no, no...  I want to be seen!  It is a bit bipolar. 

Wearing blue BDUs with an orange vest does not have the same contradiction and actually looks better. 

[Ned]

Hmm, this appears to be new information.  I think most of us here were under the impression that the AF had total independent control over this issue and that it would only take an ok from them to authorize CAP to wear AF-style uniforms. 

Is this an existing generic DoD policy that prohibits others from wearing DoD uniforms that CAP has always gotten waivers from in regards to AF-style uniforms?  Or is this something new?

CAP has put out in releases and on the KB that the current restriction is DoD-based.  I have seen the relatively new (~2 years old?) memo from the Office of the SECDEF which fairly clearly excludes us.  While we can reasonably assume that the omission may have been inadvertent, at this point "it is what it is," and we need to either have the memo changed or a waiver granted. 

My opinion is that OSD will grant the waiver, but that means we first have to put together a packet for the OSD and route it through our AF colleagues for their concurrence.  But the AF quite rightly believes that they cannot independently approve CAP wearing the ABUs in contravention of DoD policy.

So there we are.

[RogueLeader]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd

Last I checked, we are not part of any ES crowd, a portion works with them, but we are a part of the Air Force, with certain provisions that have already been discussed ad nausium.  We wear BDU's due to that association.  If you want a better fit with professional ES groups, feel free to join them.

I am part of them.  I'm afraid that you are missing the whole Emergency Services Mission of the Civil Air Patrol.   We are part of that group as well.  We are the Civilian Auxiliary to the Air Force. but wearing the BDU's no more make us a part of them because not even they wear that uniform anymore.

Not forgetting any part of ES.  Most of our ES work (in my AOR is an AFAM, as you recall is an Air Force Assigned Mission,) controlled by the AF through the AFRCC through WIMRS by a CAP IC.  so when I do SAR, I am acting for the AF.  That does not make me AD, AFR, ANG, or any other acronym, but it is counted on AF reports for man-hours, etc. 

The BDU's are a tie to the AF.  One that hasn't been updated to match yet.  You apparently don't care for the visual tie to the AF.  I can't control that or change it.  Lets just agree to disagree, because IMO BBU's are just as bad for being seeing in my AOR.

[SARDOC]

Not forgetting any part of ES.  Most of our ES work (in my AOR is an AFAM, as you recall is an Air Force Assigned Mission,) controlled by the AF through the AFRCC through WIMRS by a CAP IC.  so when I do SAR, I am acting for the AF.  That does not make me AD, AFR, ANG, or any other acronym, but it is counted on AF reports for man-hours, etc. 

The BDU's are a tie to the AF.  One that hasn't been updated to match yet.  You apparently don't care for the visual tie to the AF.  I can't control that or change it.  Lets just agree to disagree, because IMO BBU's are just as bad for being seeing in my AOR.

I do agree to disagree.  In my AOR a good amount of our work is also for Air Force Assigned Missions.  The Air Force is currently content with us wearing Blue BDU's in the prosecution of these missions.  So my point is why not have a uniform that not only complies with one of the many currently authorized uniforms but one that ALL of our members can wear...thus the purpose of the UNIFORM.  In the meantime my AOR we also have an Agreement with the State Department of Emergency Management to assist with Disaster Relief, Missing person searches, communications support for Wildland fires among many other things.  However, instead of looking like the Militia we could look like Emergency Services people in my AOR.  The reasoning is that our mission is currently very different than that of the National Guard or State Defense Force who both can help restore order and support the State Police.

We currently have a very disorganized appearance when we have some members wearing Blue and some wearing Camouflage.  Some people think this means we are a different organization.  The explanation usually involves that we discriminate against the fat and fuzzies.  It's not that I don't want us to look like the Air Force, I'm proud of our Air Force Heritage.  I just don't think that needs to translate to a work utility uniform.  I think we need a uniform for organizational identification that all our members can wear and can reflect our current mission.  Besides, we don't look like the Air Force now anyway since they no longer utilize the BDU's. 

As far as uniforms for the Air Force Heritage I'm all for the entire organization wearing all approved variants of the other Air Force Style uniforms, I just don't think that translates to our mission working uniforms.

[SarDragon]

If you were wearing your required orange vest over your BDU's while you were in those woods, you would be seen.

I think that instead of wearing a required Orange Vest why not just adopt the california Wing Orange shirt uniform nationwide?

In the big picture, it won't work.

I've been in situations here in CA, primarily airshows, where we were specifically prohibited from wearing orange, to avoid confusion with event personnel. The folks wearing orange have specific duties, which are not among those assigned to CAP participants.

[SARDOC]

I've been in situations here in CA, primarily airshows, where we were specifically prohibited from wearing orange, to avoid confusion with event personnel. The folks wearing orange have specific duties, which are not among those assigned to CAP participants.

What if you guys were prohibited from wearing the Woodland pattern because they didn't want to get you confused with the airshow security personnel?

At the Airshows in my AOR they have never said this is what you can or can't wear, because most of the AirShow staff are wearing Incident Command type vests to indicate who was what and they could be spotted from the tower.  The Ground guides all wore Orange Vests...and that was only for arrivals and departures.  The rest of the weekend when the aircraft were static...you never saw any ground personnel like that.

I think with one weird airshow exception that it could work for the rest of the country including your part...just not in the Air show.  Some of the plane directors do wear Yellow jerseys here...but that doesn't mean nobody else can wear yellow.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, this appears to be new information.  I think most of us here were under the impression that the AF had total independent control over this issue and that it would only take an ok from them to authorize CAP to wear AF-style uniforms. 

Is this an existing generic DoD policy that prohibits others from wearing DoD uniforms that CAP has always gotten waivers from in regards to AF-style uniforms?  Or is this something new?

CAP has put out in releases and on the KB that the current restriction is DoD-based.  I have seen the relatively new (~2 years old?) memo from the Office of the SECDEF which fairly clearly excludes us.  While we can reasonably assume that the omission may have been inadvertent, at this point "it is what it is," and we need to either have the memo changed or a waiver granted. 

My opinion is that OSD will grant the waiver, but that means we first have to put together a packet for the OSD and route it through our AF colleagues for their concurrence.  But the AF quite rightly believes that they cannot independently approve CAP wearing the ABUs in contravention of DoD policy.

So there we are.

Are you referring to the KB answer that says that they can't issue these items to us?  As mentioned previously that wouldn't prohibit anyone from authorizing us to wear the uniform if purchased from some other source (which is the case with the vast majority of BDU-type uniforms owned by CAP members).

[Eclipse]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the conversations about our uniforms took place.

What is flabbergasting and indicative of our situation, is that Units are interested in entertaining this nonsense.

"Yeah, I suppose you can come and work for free, but only if you don't wear anything we don't like."

The uniform is the uniform, it comes with the "free".  No other orgs would entertain the idea that they'd have to have a custom uniform, of whatever flavor, on the member's dime, because someone benefiting from our services has some bizarre misunderstanding or issue with who we are.

You think the local PD/FD, Guard Unit, etc., would put up with that?

[a2capt]

All the air shows I've worked in the southern half of California, from Mojave, Edwards, to Gillespie, I've never heard of no orange.

We wear our uniform. It comes with us.

After the work is done, sometimes there's rewards, too. Like getting to go inside of SpaceShipOne and the White Knight. The cockpits really are alike

OTOH, for ES, i've not gotten the CalTrans uniform, and probably won't, which precludes me from ES ground work, unless the ground is the base perimeter, or walking to the aircraft. Oh well. There's nothing wrong with the ANSI spec orange vest.

I wonder if that "we can't play if we don't dress like them" applies to National Guard, and other active duty people, in time of need.

Beggars can't be choosers, though I realize that's not quite what's going on here. But the whole idea of "Uniform" is to be "UNIFORM", is it not? 

[SARDOC]

I wonder if that "we can't play if we don't dress like them" applies to National Guard, and other active duty people, in time of need.

Beggars can't be choosers, though I realize that's not quite what's going on here. But the whole idea of "Uniform" is to be "UNIFORM", is it not?

I think the National Guard will adopt whatever uniform gets the Mission Accomplished.  See the Eighth picture down

http://blogs.pjstar.com/eye/2012/06/18/wildfires-scorch-the-western-u-s/

http://www.nationalguard.mil/news/archives/2008/07/070708-Guard_forces.aspx

[a2capt]

Ah.. but those guys are still in green, and likely have all that stuff issued to them. That's their uniform for that job. Dark green isn't much different than the "cammo" argument. We're not going to the front lines of anything, except water lines, and our uniform is just fine for that "battle".

Ground team, UDF, ramp operations. Orange vest. Done.

[Eclipse]

There's a big difference between being there on orders, being paid, and being issued special-duty gear.

And showing up on your own nickel, your own time, with your personally purchased uniform, and being told
it is inappropriate.

[SARDOC]

Yeah, I'm not sold on that whole California themed you can't play if you aren't wearing the right colored clothes.  Those in California can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are doing Ground Search and Rescue in California are you covered by the State's Workers Compensation plan?

If you are covered under the state's workers comp plan you are considered an employee even if you don't get a pay check.   If they require that you wear an Orange shirt, it's really no different than CAP requiring that you be in a Civil Air Patrol uniform to fly in one of our planes.

If you get covered by their insurance you have to follow their rules.  If that's not the case, I don't see how they can enforce it.

[Eclipse]

I doubt that would be the case for AFAMS, but regardless, does every other agency in CAWG, especially those covered, have to have a custom uniform?
I doubt it.

And, OK, if that's the case, then just approve the thing for general wear so members can just have one.

One of the issues here is the authority and deployment.  Most agencies, especially anything as big as CAP, get their taskings and orders
from above, not below or sideways.  They are part of the normal course of business and show up in whatever uniform their agency
dictates.

If we were actually part of the federal response scheme in more then a cursory way, things would be different.  You don't tell FEMA what to wear,
you thank them for their help (and then say it wasn't enough on the Sunday Shows).

[SARDOC]

From what I've read in some of the earlier threads, it doesn't look like the law in CA requires it.  It's that the California Wing of the CAP decided to have an alternate uniform in order to placate some of the Search and Rescue Authorities in the state who require it in a number of counties.  I guess it depends on if you have an MOA with a Local County to assist.

I'm not sure that I agree with that but I'm not involved with California Wing politics and the local politics that brought about this decision.  I just threw it out there as a hyperbolic example earlier not intending for a thread derailment on the CAWG uniform.

My ultimate point is just that I wish as wonderful an organization that I believe that the Civil Air Patrol is, that we could have one working uniform for our organization that fits the multipurpose role.  Of all the Uniforms in the current inventory we have I think that the Blue BDU is the most versatile and would suit that need.  You can work in an office, fly an airplane or work in rugged terrain and everyone in our organization is eligible to wear it without requiring a multi year process in order to propose, let an approving authority review it through a bureaucratic chain of uninterested parties.  When we can just go with a uniform everyone can already wear.  No new regulation required...it's already been done.  It's a Blue BDU which is worn by a number of other respectable ES agencies without the need for a Camo pattern that just makes us look like in my state the State Defense Force.  The transition just seems to be easier and it doesn't discriminate against the valuable fat and fuzzy members of our organization.

I know that some people think that we are somehow disrespecting the Air Force or the Air Force tradition by abandoning a uniform that the USAF has already abandoned...I really don't get it.  I think our work uniform should be a versatile work uniform.

And even elements within the USAF have at one time worn the Blue BDU..so I'll take that as honoring the Air Force heritage, while still meeting our needs.

[a2capt]

..and that CAWG derivative of the uniform has been on and off  a couple times in the past 8 years or so.

The other agencies that "require" it? Well, a similar orange shirt is their uniform.  It's not like we have -not- worked with these same agencies before, in some capacity.

Basically, the orange shirt can only be worn while on the sortie, not while sitting around the mission base, or by base staff at all, or enroute to / from the mission. So you report, get assigned, change the top, go - do the deal - come back, change it again. Or go out again. For UDF and Ground Team only. No one else can use it, and those two assignments require it. Cadets can use the orange vest, seniors can't. That's what the supplement regulation says.

Big hassle. The orange vest does the same job in a simpler manner, and if you have a thin hydration pack on, it can even go *over* that.

The BBDU isn't any more visible in the terrain, woods, etc. than the woodland pattern. It's dark material, and the search areas tend to be low light conditions, otherwise we're not exactly hiding anyway. 

[Private Investigator]

whatever

[wuzafuzz]

Back in June I attended an AUXCOMM class.  Although it focused on amateur radio communicator assistance to government organizations, some of the lessons were universal.  One of the topics was an increasing mindset among the agencies that they want volunteers to plug into their structure, rather than coming in with their own like CAP often does.  Among other things they can tell their volunteers how to dress.  A specific comment I recall was do NOT show up looking like a general or some other authority figure unless prior arrangements permit it.  It is entirely possible expectations of CAP may change a bit if we want to help.  Otherwise CERT's or other homegrown volunteers may push us aside.  We can march around in circles with our BDU's and grade insignia, wishing we could do more.

We can discuss different groups plugging into ICS all we want, but if the folks in charge don't like the uniforms we wear to the party they won't call us.  This may vary by location but public safety can be very distrustful of outsiders, and sometimes feels they have turf to protect.  (Police, fire, EMS, and Nat Guard are usually the insiders.  Anyone else in uniform is fighting an uphill battle.)  If you want to help in our uniforms, work these things out in advance with MOU's.  Be as flexible as our regulations permit.  Or stay home.  Sometimes that sucks, but is the reality we face.

Now, this is NOT a Radioman moment, but I wonder if CG Aux has a good idea removing their grade insignia when they augment active duty Coast Guard units.  Maybe CAP could do the same.  Wear shiny metal grade within CAP, remove it upon request.  Wear it if permitted.  We keep saying grade is meaningless outside of CAP anyway.  Removable grade could assuage some delicate feelings outside of CAP.  I know, I know, sew on grade is easier (except when we get promoted).  Camo uniforms are a whole other potential concern.

Bottom line, other groups can't change our uniforms but they don't have to let us into their "circle of trust" either.

[RiverAux]

Now, this is NOT a Radioman moment, but I wonder if CG Aux has a good idea removing their grade insignia when they augment active duty Coast Guard units.  Maybe CAP could do the same.  Wear shiny metal grade within CAP, remove it upon request.  Wear it if permitted. 

FYI, it seems to be fairly common that local CG units often waive (at their instigation) this requirement.  They know who is an Auxie and who isn't. 

[wuzafuzz]

Now, this is NOT a Radioman moment, but I wonder if CG Aux has a good idea removing their grade insignia when they augment active duty Coast Guard units.  Maybe CAP could do the same.  Wear shiny metal grade within CAP, remove it upon request.  Wear it if permitted. 

FYI, it seems to be fairly common that local CG units often waive (at their instigation) this requirement.  They know who is an Auxie and who isn't.

That's cool, the benefits of relationship building.  But when we hope to step into new situations flexibility may be more important than many of us realized.

[SARDOC]

..and that CAWG derivative of the uniform has been on and off  a couple times in the past 8 years or so.

The other agencies that "require" it? Well, a similar orange shirt is their uniform.  It's not like we have -not- worked with these same agencies before, in some capacity.

Basically, the orange shirt can only be worn while on the sortie, not while sitting around the mission base, or by base staff at all, or enroute to / from the mission. So you report, get assigned, change the top, go - do the deal - come back, change it again. Or go out again. For UDF and Ground Team only. No one else can use it, and those two assignments require it. Cadets can use the orange vest, seniors can't. That's what the supplement regulation says.

Big hassle. The orange vest does the same job in a simpler manner, and if you have a thin hydration pack on, it can even go *over* that.

The BBDU isn't any more visible in the terrain, woods, etc. than the woodland pattern. It's dark material, and the search areas tend to be low light conditions, otherwise we're not exactly hiding anyway.

Well that seems like superfluous organizational rules that don't seem to support the mission at all.  Again, I'm not from California so I can't speak to the reasoning behind those decisions but they seem counter intuitive to efficient operations.

My issue with the Camo isn't really with the visibility of it in the woods.  The BBDU would still necessitate the use of the reflective vest.  The issue I have is with the Organizational Identity of those organizations that wear Camo vs. those who wear other things.  As well as the fact that all the members of our organization should be able to report to an operation wearing the same uniform.

[PHall]

Again, I'm not from California so I can't speak to the reasoning behind those decisions but they seem counter intuitive to efficient operations.

Yet you seem compelled to keep commenting on it.

The short story, in California the Sheriff of each county is responsible for ALL search and rescue in their county. This is per state law.
In short, we operate at the sheriff's pleasure.

CalEMA acts as a statewide coordination agency. They are very ICS centric. CalEMA has strongly suggested that if CAP wants to play they need to play by the same rules as everyone else. One of their "suggested" practices is the wear of the orange shirt by ground teams to facilitate visibility from the air.

So California Wing decided to comply with their wishes to keep everyone happy.

Yes, we could have said "no, we won't do it". And they could have said "then you won't work in the State of California".

It's not really a battle worth falling on our sword for.

[Eclipse]

Yes, we could have said "no, we won't do it". And they could have said "then you won't work in the State of California".

I'd say that should have been considered as an option, including the planes, but we're so desperate to be in the game that we'll pretty much accept whatever people put in front of us, and then pay them to play on top of that.

You don't see cops, firemen, or the military wearing a different uniform in California just for the privilege of working for free.

[wuzafuzz]

CalEMA has strongly suggested that if CAP wants to play they need to play by the same rules as everyone else.

I'm not questioning the wisdom of hi-viz clothing in the field, as aircrew I know I'd love for ground teams to wear more orange than they do now.  I'm curious though, where are these rules or suggested practices published?  After a previous conversation on this very topic I searched and searched but didn't find anything.  My Google Fu isn't invincible, but it's usually pretty good. 

[wuzafuzz]

The irony of the CAWG orange shirt is that members probably still have to wear an ANSI vest when reflector material is required.  An orange vest over an orange shirt starts getting a little silly.

[PHall]

The irony of the CAWG orange shirt is that members probably still have to wear an ANSI vest when reflector material is required.  An orange vest over an orange shirt starts getting a little silly.

Actually, no they don't. 

[Eclipse]

The irony of the CAWG orange shirt is that members probably still have to wear an ANSI vest when reflector material is required.  An orange vest over an orange shirt starts getting a little silly.

Actually, no they don't.

A vest is required by the national curriculum, something which cannot be reduced by a lower-level supplement.

In one flavor or another, it is required by both the GT/UDF curriculm and the Safety regs.   The CALTrans uniform is not ANSI II compliant.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I believe to get the uniform they did national was involved.

[Eclipse]

I believe to get the uniform they did national was involved.

Yes, they would need to have a nationally approved supplement - those supplements can strengthen existing regulations,
but they can't relax them, nor reduce what is required equipment for a given qualification.

In this case, the Safety regs require that the vest be ANSI compliant (as of 29 days ago).

[wuzafuzz]

Even when our members are not required to wear ANSI vests, they are still required to wear safety vests in all the situations requiring the wear of the CAWG orange shirt.  That shirt just became pointless unless it integrates reflective material, probably to the ANSI 2 level.   I personally like the shirt, althought not in combination with blue pants.  Regardless, it's not good for much in light of the new rules.  Well, adding orange sleeves to a vest does help a little.  Granted, I've never seen a county SAR team with ANSI shirts, most of them are wearing orange tee-shirts in good weather.  CAP went overboard with the requirement for reflectivity in ALL ground activities.

From 62-1:
7. Personal Protective Equipment
a. Every CAP member will wear appropriate safety vests or safety apparel as outlined below when participating in CAP ground functions during all times, day or night. Safety vests or safety apparel may be orange or lime green and may be worn with or without the CAP logo. Examples of applicable ground functions are, but not limited to:
(1) All outdoor ground functions of emergency services.


d. ANSI and non-ANSI compliance standards are as follows:
(1) ANSI compliant – Safety Vests or Safety Apparel must meet the American National Standards Institute, Inc (ANSI) Class 2 or Class 3 requirements. This category is required anytime a member's duties may place them within the right-of-way of Federal-aid highways; such as directing traffic, investigating crashes, handling lane closures, obstructed roadways, and disasters within the right-of-way of a Federal-aid highway.
(2) Non-ANSI compliant – Safety Vests only, require reflectivity front and back. This category is allowed anytime a member's duties do not require ANSI compliant vests in accordance with the definition of ANSI compliant requirements above. By October 1, 2012, all safety vests and safety apparel will be required to meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 visibility and reflectivity standards.

[PHall]

I believe to get the uniform they did national was involved.

Yes, they would need to have a nationally approved supplement - those supplements can strengthen existing regulations,
but they can't relax them, nor reduce what is required equipment for a given qualification.

In this case, the Safety regs require that the vest be ANSI compliant (as of 29 days ago).

The CAWG SUP to CAPM 39-1 was approved by the PACR/CC. No requirement for it to go to National.

[Eclipse]

The CAWG SUP to CAPM 39-1 was approved by the PACR/CC. No requirement for it to go to National.

The regulations disagree.

[PHall]

[redacted - double post]

[PHall]

The CAWG SUP to CAPM 39-1 was approved by the PACR/CC. No requirement for it to go to National.

The regulations disagree.

CAPM 39-1 says that Region Commanders, in coordination with National Headquarters, must approve Wing Supplements.
That was done. As a matter of fact, the issue of the CAWG Ground Team uniform was an agenda item at a National Board meeting,
where it was approved.

[Eclipse]

The Region CC may be submitting it, but it ultimately has to be approved by NHQ.

[wuzafuzz]

Previous approvals aside, the orange shirt has to be covered by a safety or ANSI 2 compliant vest in most of the circumstances where the orange shirt is permitted for wear.  Failure to do so runs afoul of the current safety regs.  The shirt is now a legal undergarment for a vest.

[PA Guy]

Yes, we could have said "no, we won't do it". And they could have said "then you won't work in the State of California".

I'd say that should have been considered as an option, including the planes, but we're so desperate to be in the game that we'll pretty much accept whatever people put in front of us, and then pay them to play on top of that.

For most of the big county Sheriff Depts in CA CAP isn't even a blip on the radar. One county, San Bernardino consisting of 20,000 sq mi, has a fleet of:
6 Astar B-3 Eurocopters
1 MD 500E
2UH-1H Super Hueys (MedEvac/MICU equipped)
1 Sikorssky H-3 (May have been withdrawn from service)
1 Aero Commander
1 C-182
This is in addition to the Reserve Aero Sqdn aircraft that are member owned.  The Sheriff also has ground teams that are equipped and specialize in mtn., desert, mine, swift water and mounted SAR with the infrastructure to support them.

So yeah, CAWG does want to stay in their good graces. CAP needs them more than they need CAP. As far as knowing what the wardrobe is for CA law enforcement, fire and NG I think your knowledge is limited. You need to get out of ILWG more.

[Eclipse]

So yeah, CAWG does want to stay in their good graces. CAP needs them more than they need CAP.

My point exactly, so perhaps the best tack is to offer services, then disengage if there are too many asterisks.

So yeah, CAWG does want to stay in their good graces. CAP needs
As far as knowing what the wardrobe is for CA law enforcement, fire and NG I think your knowledge is limited.

Feel free to post photos...

[a2capt]

http://cawg.cap.gov/Files/Supplements/CAWG39-1.PDF

.. and if you read that, you can see where it was "suggested", that it's a "nationally recognized" thing, and NHQ went along with it.  Basically, they want NO BDU's (cadets exempted), and thus NO rank.

They allow CAP aviation badges, but the uniform itself can't be worn for aviation purposes. 2nd on the list is the golf shirt combo, with ANSI orange, of course.

[Eclipse]

Amazing - it's superhero important for everyone to wear orange...

...um, except we can't mandate cadets wear it, so...

...um...I guess they don't have to?

Pogo would be proud.

Also...

This supplement does not change the fact that a reflective vest is still required, as the vest is considered "equipment".

[bosshawk]

Just to muddy the waters, I'll tell you that my county SAR team wears red shirts.  If needed, we wear a reflective vest over the red.  And, we are in CA. 

[Eclipse]

Just to muddy the waters, I'll tell you that my county SAR team wears red shirts.  If needed, we wear a reflective vest over the red.  And, we are in CA.

Facts should never interfere with conjecture.  Everyone in CA wears orange.

[abdsp51]

Just to muddy the waters, I'll tell you that my county SAR team wears red shirts.  If needed, we wear a reflective vest over the red.  And, we are in CA.

Facts should never interfere with conjecture.  Everyone in CA wears orange.

Um, that is dependent upon the county.  The orange is a suggested practice in CA not a requirement per CalEMA to create unity.  The Sheriff still retains the ultimate decision on what his/her SAR teams wear and how they are equipped.  CalEMA cannot nor can the state require it to be mandatory without shelling out the bucks to equip each agency.  With how the budget problems there are now this would be axed right away. 

[a2capt]

Except that in this case, CAP chose to thin it's ranks of available assets because it in effect, booted people from availability. At the same time they run around saying they need more.

Which is it?

[PHall]

Except that in this case, CAP chose to thin it's ranks of available assets because it in effect, booted people from availability. At the same time they run around saying they need more.

Which is it?

Hunh???

[PA Guy]

Except that in this case, CAP chose to thin it's ranks of available assets because it in effect, booted people from availability. At the same time they run around saying they need more.

Which is it?

Does that include aircrew since the boots and nomex requirement?

[PA Guy]

Amazing - it's superhero important for everyone to wear orange...

...um, except we can't mandate cadets wear it, so...

...um...I guess they don't have to?

Pogo would be proud.

Also...

This supplement does not change the fact that a reflective vest is still required, as the vest is considered "equipment".

Your attempt at being facetious just comes across as being snarky.

[PA Guy]

So yeah, CAWG does want to stay in their good graces. CAP needs them more than they need CAP.

My point exactly, so perhaps the best tack is to offer services, then disengage if there are too many asterisks.

So yeah, CAWG does want to stay in their good graces. CAP needs
As far as knowing what the wardrobe is for CA law enforcement, fire and NG I think your knowledge is limited.

Feel free to post photos...

I have on mult similar threads. You just have chosen to ignore them.