TIME TO BRING BACK THE "TYPE B" ENCAMPMENT in Large Wings

[Ned]

I have spent a fair amount of time trying to create a viable financial model for one or more "CAP encampment facilities," and have not been able to come close to a sustainable model.

Bob is correct that trying to build a facility with housing, classrooms, admin space, etc. for 150+ folks is a half-million dollar plus effort.  Short of the Appropriations Fairy making a surprise visit, there are simply no availble resources for one, let alone eight.

So I spent some time trying to work the problem starting with "inherited buildings," say after a full or partial base closure.  I actually spent a lot of hours working with the Fort Ord Reutilization crew, and lesser amounts talking to the authorities about March and Castle AFBs.

The first problems come with the fact that repurposed buildings come with a lot of deferred maintenance, old infrastructure, and things like asbestos.  The Ford Ord project was a fairly typical example.  They were perfectly willing to donate 4 barracks buildings, a dining hall, and an admin building to CAP.  But, we would have to pay for asbestos abatement and bring them into ADA accessibility standards before we could take possession. 

Yes, we were going to have to put wheelchair ramps and elevators into open bay barracks buildings built during WWII.  And they seemed to have asbestos insulation and floor tiles.  We could not do "self-help" asbestos abatement; you have to hire a certified contractor.

But even if I could have talked them out of all that, we would have had to repair roofs and find one or more people who could operate the tempramental boilers used since 1942 for heat and hot water. 

And regular maintenance (cleaning, mowing the lawns, etc) 24/7/52 was also going to be a challenge.  Short of hiring a mantenance crew, it got tricky.

The final problems came with trying to envision keeping the facility active enough to begin to pay for it through reasonable user fees.  Let's say you could run 7-8 weeks of CAP activities each summer (several encampments, a couple of RCLS, various other schools, etc) and say 26 other weekends during the year, the buildings are still going to sit idle 70% of the time, while still requiring power, at least a minimal amount of heat, etc.

I thought about renting it out to other youth groups, but they typically will want to use it at the same time we do - heavily during the summer and a few weekends throughout the year.

I just could never make the numbers work.  Maybe someone smarter than me can do it.

[lordmonar]

Hey Ned!  Don't be raining on my pipe dream with real numbers and things!   

[Eclipse]

We've had the same issue locally with old buildings - generally the reason they are available is because of maintenance or other
issues like asbestos.  If the buildings were really serviceable, they'ed still be in use.

The tax laws that don't allow landlords to get any benefit unless they actually give us the building doesn't help that either.

[ProdigalJim]

Eclipse and Ned are both right, and make fair points.

That said, why do we limit our thinking on these things to pay-as-you-go models or surprise visits from the Appropriations Fairy (luv that term by the way  )?

I ask the above in sincerity, not snark, honest. If we decide there's a problem to solve of some scale...and this thread suggests that while not ALL wings face this issue, enough do to make it a real issue...why not seek to create a dedicated capital fund, for the sole purpose of creating and maintaining permanent, multi-purpose/multi-mission facilities in a few locations around the country?

Solicit corporate and philanthropic contributions to get it started, use the benevolent character of the mission as a main selling point, and the make the capital fund can invest so it can spin off money to help subsidize (a little) continuing operations.

A multi-use facility could attract not only Foundation and corporate funds but potentially other kinds of State and perhaps even municipal funding streams (ops center, staging area, disaster relief cache, multi-agency training academy, etc.).

Yes, it's hard. Yes, it takes a long time. And yes, there would be upkeep. That's why you build in multiple annuity streams to offset appropriations vagaries. Scale in this case actually makes it more attractive to large funders, who want to have the widest possible effect.

[Eclipse]

Few large-scale benefactors are interested in contributing to capital funds, they want to see what you are doing with the money days after the checks clear, and are rarely interested in helping with operating expenses.

As to multi-use facilities, not a bad idea, but most agencies that would have the interest and funding can do it without CAP, and their needs and requirements wind up trumping ours. 

I'd also have to say that capital programs work against our model, which is to be a resource that takes advantage of existing resources and skills to
accomplish the mission.

[Ned]

why not seek to create a dedicated capital fund, for the sole purpose of creating and maintaining permanent, multi-purpose/multi-mission facilities in a few locations around the country?

Of course we could attempt that.  We have given that and similar approaches a lot of thought.

Then it simply becomes a resource allocation problem. 

If I could effectively raise a couple of million dollars (a fairly big "if"), is the currently successful encampment program where I would want to allocate that time and treasure?

IOW, if I could raise a couple of million dollars, do I want to spend that on some buildings and maintenance, or would I want to spend it on things like scholarships, paid CP staff at the local level, professional R&R spots, subsidising current CP costs for things like uniforms and supplies, or any of a hundred other worthy projects?

Or it might make a lot more sense to invest that couple of million dollars in an endowment and use the proceeds to provide needy cadets a subsidy on their transportation costs to encampment?

It's not that the volunteer leadership never thought of the idea, (because that is why we have staffers who identify, weigh, and recommend alternatives such as these), it's just that we cannot commit the fundraising resources necessary given the competing needs of the program.

Especially since the current encampment model is a fairly good fit with existing military resources.  Most encampments happen on an active or reserve military facility whose existing resources have excess capacity and are suited to what we do at encampment.  Sure, some wings don't have adequate military base support, and even in the ones that do we sometimes get bumped or less-than-optimal training windows.  But the encampment program is flexible enough to allow encampments in civilian facilities, and even done on weekends if necessary.

[mmizner]

FYI - There are three buildings at Nellis AFB that we could have for this type of thing.  We would have a cost to be able to use them but the buildings are there.  200 man per building and a DFAC across the yard.

Anyone got a few Million to donate.

[ol'fido]

Tp the best of my understanding, Type A and Type B encampments became Summer(or Winter) encampments and Weekend encampments merely because people used to refer to them as Class A and Class B encampments and there was the perception that this referred to the quality of the respective program. So in order to convey the fact that both had the same basic requirements and were of equal quality(in concept if not reality), the present terms were chosen.

Somebody, in a previous post said that 90% of what went on at encampments wasn't required by regulation. I take this to mean that you are including such activities as eating, sleeping, showering, etc. Because every encampment, no matter what type, must provide the 40 hours of instruction and classes specified in 52-16. I know. I am responsible for ensuring that this requirement is met at the ILWG Summer Encampment to the satisfaction of the CAP-RAPs and the SD.

Since 2003, we have hosted cadets at our encampment from all over the country. We had one cadet from PAWG who had to do an Amazing Race type of cross country jaunt to attend and turned out to be one of our outstanding cadets. We regularly have cadets from TX come up to our encampment. My assistant and one of our ATS instructors are from TXWG.

Every cadet should have a reasonable opportunity to attend an encampment that is within reasonable travel time from home, affordable, and that offers a quality program. In areas where this is not happening, that needs to be identified and a way found to fill in the gap. I know that when I was a cadet, we got to ride ANG buses to the encampment but that is a long shot these days. Units can help with scholarships and COV travel, but, ultimately, it is the cadet's responsibility to get to the activity and I don't see a way to change that.

[Dad2-4]

Just a quick note:
Due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts with the Texas ANG, the TXWG Summer Encampment has changed location and dates several times and will now be held at a location in the neighborhood of 530 miles away from Major Corrales' unit. Ouch.

[Eclipse]

Just a quick note:
Due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts with the Texas ANG, the TXWG Summer Encampment has changed location and dates several times and will now be held at a location in the neighborhood of 530 miles away from Major Corrales' unit. Ouch.

Ugh.

Assuming driving the speed limit, that's 8+ hours.  Further then I'd normally accept apps to ILWG Spring, and a safety and logistics issue at a minimum, especially on the ride home.  Even by plane that's a long GA flight, especially with no bathroom.

[tribalelder]

First, Illinois Wing's two weekend Spring Encampment works great.

In1969 and again in1988, Illinois Wing even conducted an encampments in the Chicago area on a commuter basis. 5 or 6 training days covered all the then-required course of training.  Cadets even packed their lunch, eliminating picky eater/religious/medical diet issues.  This approach does not achieve the cultural immersion of a 7 day residential approach, but the costs of participation are lower, staffing and planning workloads are MUCH  lower. 

In the 1988 encampment different facilities were utilized on different days.

[MajorM]

Replicating infrastructure that is already commercially available would be a poor use of funds.  In real life I develop community-type facilities like this for non-profits.  The utilization rate would need to be nearly continuous to make it feasible for a corporation like CAP to run.  You will never find sufficient capital to build one per wing... not even one per region.

Plus you don't need it.  There are many, many places out there with buildings and facilities that can handle an encampment.  Colleges, private schools, state/fed/local training facilities, etc... are all acceptable venues.  Do they lack the "military-feel"?  Yes.  Do they lack access to USAF or military specific activities and orientations?  Of course.  This makes them inferior to on-base options.  But in our current day scenario, with continued reduced funding for all facets of government, it's a reality we have to adapt to.

So then... how do we address the very real problem of facilities and encampments?  And it's not only a "big wing" problem.  Last year Wisconsin couldn't get into our only real facility so we ended up having to send cadets 8 hours away to Illinois or Minnesota.  Other years Wisconsin has had to use Camp Ripley in Minnesota.  And I remember being in Minnesota and having to go to Grand Forks (and have nightmares still of loading up 125 wooden footlockers from Fort McCoy in western Wisconsin, transporting them 500 miles one-way to Grand Forks, transporting them back, unloading them all by myself in 100 degree temps, and praying the whole time that none fo them got damaged as all 125 of them were signed out under my name).

Well... the problem with commercial facilities is primarily cost.  Therefore it becomes a revenue problem.  Local fundraising can be one solution.  Another solution could be direct subsidy of encampments by NHQ.  Where would that money come from?  Who knows... scale back a few NCSAs, reallocate dollars... I don't know, but where there's a will there's a way.

Encampment is only one of two (RCLS being the other) activities that we mandate cadets attend.  However the organization makes no direct investment into, what the regulation has made out to be, the flagship activity of the youth program.

I would also throw out that the cost of encampment may need to rise as well.  I know that's blasphemy... I've run many encampment in my CAP years.  I've always tried to keep the costs down.  First it was sub-$100.  Then it was keep it under $150.  But have you looked at the cost of similar youth camps?  $400, $500 is not unusual and that doesn't include transportation.  I'm NOT saying encampment should cost $400.  At the same time we may come to the point where we have to realize that $150-$200 for 7-8 days of in-resident camp isn't financially feasible.

This of course leads back to the argument for direct investment as part of NHQ programming.

[Al Sayre]

Maybe we need to change our facilities requirements.  Instead of looking for a "military type" venue, perhaps we should be looking at how the scouts do it.  They seem to be able to have and maintain a fairly large number of (admittedly rustic) facilities where they hold their versions of encampments all summer long, and make those facilities available to the various troops almost year round.  The facilities are generally maintained by a single caretaker who lives on site and is paid a small stipend in addition to his/her housing.  Maintenance and construction is augmented by the various troops or councils that use the facilities, frequently as weekend projects combined with a "camp-out" for the youth.  We don't necessarily need acres of pavement for drill, and open bay barracks for "the military feel".  A combined mess hall and meeting facility, some campground type bathrooms and showers would provide for the basics.  GP Tents or the classic 2 or 4 man cabin tents on pallets would round out the sleeping facilities.  I believe that FL Wing has held their winter encampments at one of these facilities in recent years, and when I was a cadet in FL Wing, we used to use the boy scout camp near Jupiter on a pretty regular basis.   Just something to think about.

[Spaceman3750]

In places like Illinois, Indiana, and most southern states where summer could be mistaken for the gates of Hell, sleeping and messing in non-cooled areas is really not an option.

[Eclipse]

There aren't any facilities requirements, beyond the practical of hots & cots for however many attend.  There's nothing that says
it has to be on a military facility, but considering we are a military auxiliary, and most similar civilian facilities are cost prohibitive,
the choices are limited.

I don't see camping as an option.  A lot (too many IMHO) of our cadets have no interest in "roughing it", nor any relevant experience
in camping.  For the BSA, camping is kind of a core activity, and generally dad and/or mom are with the Scouts when they are younger.
A lot of our cadets suffer from "Couch Crease Syndrome", and have never been away from home overnight, an encampment is not
the place to do that, especially then there's a core curriculum which must be accomplished outside the "learning not to die" part of camping.

Add heat or rain, and you've got a potential disaster, not to mention a bunch of cadets who are going to want their money back when they find there's
no ribbon, because the Tornados canceled the activity.  In the BSA, or even NESA, that would just be an "awesome adventure".

[Al Sayre]

In places like Illinois, Indiana, and most southern states where summer could be mistaken for the gates of Hell, sleeping and messing in non-cooled areas is really not an option.

Guessing you've never been to Disney World/Florida in the summer time...

[Major Carrales]

There aren't any facilities requirements, beyond the practical of hots & cots for however many attend.  There's nothing that says
it has to be on a military facility, but considering we are a military auxiliary, and most similar civilian facilities are cost prohibitive,
the choices are limited.

I don't see camping as an option.  A lot (too many IMHO) of our cadets have no interest in "roughing it", nor any relevant experience
in camping.  For the BSA, camping is kind of a core activity, and generally dad and/or mom are with the Scouts when they are younger.
A lot of our cadets suffer from "Couch Crease Syndrome", and have never been away from home overnight, an encampment is not
the place to do that, especially then there's a core curriculum which must be accomplished outside the "learning not to die" part of camping.

Add heat or rain, and you've got a potential disaster, not to mention a bunch of cadets who are going to want their money back when they find there's
no ribbon, because the Tornados canceled the activity.  In the BSA, or even NESA, that would just be an "awesome adventure".

I have done camping in our unit, I think that this would work for a bivouac style encampment if the scale is limited to about 40 to 50 cadets.  This would involve them cooking (flights would have to assign a camp cook and the like) we do that sort of thing often to get early starts on o-flights.

[Eclipse]

In places like Illinois, Indiana, and most southern states where summer could be mistaken for the gates of Hell, sleeping and messing in non-cooled areas is really not an option.

Guessing you've never been to Disney World/Florida in the summer time...

Disney World has air conditioning, frosty drinks, and fun rides...

[Eclipse]

I have done camping in our unit, I think that this would work for a bivouac style encampment if the scale is limited to about 40 to 50 cadets.  This would involve them cooking (flights would have to assign a camp cook and the like) we do that sort of thing often to get early starts on o-flights.

That's my point - the logistics of living would get in the way of the required curriculum.

On most ES bivouacs I've been a part of, "hots and cots" become a focus of a large part of the day.  That would impede
an encampment since it has nothing to do with camping and little to do with ES.

[Spaceman3750]

In places like Illinois, Indiana, and most southern states where summer could be mistaken for the gates of Hell, sleeping and messing in non-cooled areas is really not an option.

Guessing you've never been to Disney World/Florida in the summer time...

I have. At the end of the day there was an air conditioned hotel room to go back to and as Eclipse said there's lots of cool places to go when you get too hot.