Uniform poll -- Adult leaders of Cadets

Started by RiverAux, January 15, 2007, 04:48:47 PM

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What uniform would you like to see required for adult leaders of cadets?

Current mix of uniforms
23 (34.3%)
AF-style only (no height/weight requirements -- like CG Aux)
11 (16.4%)
AF-style only but must meet height/weight requirements
26 (38.8%)
CAP uniforms only (blue flight suits, BBDUs, TPUs, etc).
5 (7.5%)
CAP civilian uniforms (gray slacks/golf shirt, etc.)
2 (3%)
Totally civilian.  Wear what you want at all times.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 67

RiverAux

This would just apply to adults in cadet squadrons or those adults in composite squadrons dealing directly with cadets.  Assume all cadets will continue in AF-style uniforms only. 

AlphaSigOU

I'd rather see those adult leaders of cadets (of which I'm one) to either wear AF-style if meeting weight and grooming standards or blue corporates if directly working with cadets.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

MIKE

You didn't mention grooming standards with the AF-style uniforms.  Is that implied?
Mike Johnston

Major Carrales

I would say the AF Style uniform and the CAP distinctives that wear in the same manner.

The Golf Shirt is, while easy to maintain, somewhat contrary to the image cadets are expected to follow.  Thus, a lead by example scheme is the best.  The Corportate uniforms (where you more or less chenge out the USAF blue shirt with an aviator shirt and replace shoulder marks) can demonstrate the same discipline.

I think the Golf Shirt is best for mission base and flying activities.

Just my initial impression, if you think I'm off the mark I'm willing to entertain optional opinions. 
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

TankerT

I think this poll is completely removed from reality. 

It is extremely hard to find some people in different areas to work with cadets.

I could care less what uniform they wear, as long as they wear it properly, and well.

I'd take that over a cadet activity or unit that falls apart because of some stupid uniform rule any day.

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

Major Carrales

Quote from: TankerT on January 15, 2007, 06:02:41 PM
I think this poll is completely removed from reality. 

It is extremely hard to find some people in different areas to work with cadets.

I could care less what uniform they wear, as long as they wear it properly, and well.

I'd take that over a cadet activity or unit that falls apart because of some stupid uniform rule any day.

If I'm not mistaken, current regs call for Seniors who work with cadets to wear a uniform.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

TankerT

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 15, 2007, 06:48:39 PM
If I'm not mistaken, current regs call for Seniors who work with cadets to wear a uniform.

Thus my comment that I don't care what uniform they wear... notice I didn't say " I don't care what they wear..."


/Insert Snappy Comment Here

MIKE

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 15, 2007, 06:48:39 PM
If I'm not mistaken, current regs call for Seniors who work with cadets to wear a uniform.

This is true.  You should also note that current regs require that a CAP uniforms be worn "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions."
Mike Johnston

RiverAux

QuoteI think this poll is completely removed from reality. 

Then vote to keep the current mix of uniforms. 

QuoteYou didn't mention grooming standards with the AF-style uniforms.  Is that implied?
Lets assume that current grooming rules would stay the same. 

Chief Chiafos

No matter what kind of uniform we ware - it ought to be prepared and worn correctly -

I have attached a uniform guide on how to prepare and wear the uniform

Chief Chiafos

By the way - I would appreciate any feed back you may have on the Gorilla Guide to Uniforms.  If something isn't worded clearly, or if you have suggestions to make it better, please let me know.

Pace

I didn't vote because my opinion doesn't fit any of those options in the strictest sense.

Personally, I think those involved in the cadet program should be held to the same standards (i.e. lead by example).  If you meet height/weight, mandatory USAF uniform.  If you don't, mandatory CAP military style uniform.  No facial hair except that allowed by USAF grooming standards.  Completely phase out the old grey & white corporate uniform in favor of the TPU.  Basically, Blues and TPU depending on height/weight.

If you don't wanna play by the rules, don't play with the cadets.

^^^Great in theory.  Alas, it would die a hard and fast death once boots hit the ground in many areas.  That or many squadrons' cadet programs would die a hard and fast death.
Lt Col, CAP

RiverAux

Yeah, maybe I should have added some mix & match options (AF-style and CAP uniforms only -- no "civilian" uniforms like golf shirt) but that would have quickly got out of hand. 

Guardrail

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 15, 2007, 09:29:23 PM
I didn't vote because my opinion doesn't fit any of those options in the strictest sense.

Personally, I think those involved in the cadet program should be held to the same standards (i.e. lead by example).  If you meet height/weight, mandatory USAF uniform.  If you don't, mandatory CAP military style uniform.  No facial hair except that allowed by USAF grooming standards.  Completely phase out the old grey & white corporate uniform in favor of the TPU.  Basically, Blues and TPU depending on height/weight.

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 15, 2007, 09:29:23 PMIf you don't wanna play by the rules, don't play with the cadets.

^^^Great in theory.  Alas, it would die a hard and fast death once boots hit the ground in many areas.  That or many squadrons' cadet programs would die a hard and fast death.

I don't know... I think if CAP had a Quality Assurance program (specialty track and all) maybe the idea wouldn't die a fast and hard death, as you say.  There would be more accountability. 

Lancer

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 15, 2007, 09:29:23 PM
I didn't vote because my opinion doesn't fit any of those options in the strictest sense.

Ditto.

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 15, 2007, 09:29:23 PM
Personally, I think those involved in the cadet program should be held to the same standards (i.e. lead by example).  If you meet height/weight, mandatory USAF uniform.  If you don't, mandatory CAP military style uniform.  No facial hair except that allowed by USAF grooming standards.  Completely phase out the old grey & white corporate uniform in favor of the TPU.  Basically, Blues and TPU depending on height/weight.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Although, in my case, I can only order everything but the pants. In fact, there are currently only two sizes available for the Corporate slacks. What gives Vanguard.

Some squadron's are lucky to even have Adult Officers show up regularly, so, like was said before by TankerT, as long as they are wearing a uniform and wearing it correctly...you've at least got the hard part out of the way.

Pace

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 15, 2007, 09:29:23 PM
I didn't vote because my opinion doesn't fit any of those options in the strictest sense.

Personally, I think those involved in the cadet program should be held to the same standards (i.e. lead by example).  If you meet height/weight, mandatory USAF uniform.  If you don't, mandatory CAP military style uniform.  No facial hair except that allowed by USAF grooming standards.  Completely phase out the old grey & white corporate uniform in favor of the TPU.  Basically, Blues and TPU depending on height/weight.

If you don't wanna play by the rules, don't play with the cadets.

^^^Great in theory.  Alas, it would die a hard and fast death once boots hit the ground in many areas.  That or many squadrons' cadet programs would die a hard and fast death.

Forgot to mention the operational uniforms, even though that's fairly straight forward:
Meet height/weight: mandatory Woodland BDUs (ground) or sage green flight suit (aircrew).
Don't meet height/weight: mandatory Blue BDUs (ground) or blue flight suit (aircrew).

If we'd focus on the mission and our people's success, we wouldn't have time to worry about the "stigma" that everyone tries to associate with requiring one uniform for fit people and one uniform for unfit people.  You're not going to make everyone happy now or ever so do what's best for the group's uniformity and tell the whiners (on both sides) to lock it up.
Lt Col, CAP

SarDragon

Why do I sense a discrimanatory attitude against mixing facial hair and cadet leaders?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

aveighter

Quote from: Chief Chiafos on January 15, 2007, 08:59:42 PM
By the way - I would appreciate any feed back you may have on the Gorilla Guide to Uniforms.  If something isn't worded clearly, or if you have suggestions to make it better, please let me know.

Chief,

You have written a masterpiece!  Should be required reading.  A tip of the former Marine hat to you.  I am laughing out loud, however, as I imagine the twisted faces and howls of indignation welling up amongst the non-believers, lip quiverers and "we're o o o n l y civilians" crowd and the like.


DNall

Quote from: aveighter on January 16, 2007, 01:18:07 AM
Quote from: Chief Chiafos on January 15, 2007, 08:59:42 PM
By the way - I would appreciate any feed back you may have on the Gorilla Guide to Uniforms.  If something isn't worded clearly, or if you have suggestions to make it better, please let me know.
Chief,
You have written a masterpiece!  Should be required reading.  A tip of the former Marine hat to you.  I am laughing out loud, however, as I imagine the twisted faces and howls of indignation welling up amongst the non-believers, lip quiverers and "we're o o o n l y civilians" crowd and the like.
Think I can get some uTube on that? Be nice pick me up now & then.
Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 16, 2007, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 15, 2007, 09:29:23 PM
I didn't vote because my opinion doesn't fit any of those options in the strictest sense.

Personally, I think those involved in the cadet program should be held to the same standards (i.e. lead by example).  If you meet height/weight, mandatory USAF uniform.  If you don't, mandatory CAP military style uniform.  No facial hair except that allowed by USAF grooming standards.  Completely phase out the old grey & white corporate uniform in favor of the TPU.  Basically, Blues and TPU depending on height/weight.

If you don't wanna play by the rules, don't play with the cadets.

^^^Great in theory.  Alas, it would die a hard and fast death once boots hit the ground in many areas.  That or many squadrons' cadet programs would die a hard and fast death.

Forgot to mention the operational uniforms, even though that's fairly straight forward:
Meet height/weight: mandatory Woodland BDUs (ground) or sage green flight suit (aircrew).
Don't meet height/weight: mandatory Blue BDUs (ground) or blue flight suit (aircrew).

If we'd focus on the mission and our people's success, we wouldn't have time to worry about the "stigma" that everyone tries to associate with requiring one uniform for fit people and one uniform for unfit people.  You're not going to make everyone happy now or ever so do what's best for the group's uniformity and tell the whiners (on both sides) to lock it up.
So basically AF-style if you meet the quals, corp-style if not, and specifically designated UOD for every type event as a general guidance when none is published in the OPPLAN, and req that it be published in OPPLANs & stated for meeting, etc. Yeah I agree with that. I just voted AF-style ht/wt cause that's close as it came.

Quote from: SarDragon on January 16, 2007, 01:17:39 AM
Why do I sense a discrimanatory attitude against mixing facial hair and cadet leaders?
In a perfect world cadet programs officers would wear AF-style as an example of how it should be worn. I don't have anything against the fuzzy or fat, just so they preset a professional image & wear whatever uniform to the highest standards (especially when around cadets) & the appropriate uniform for the event (which never includes a golf shirt).

Pace

Quote from: SarDragon on January 16, 2007, 01:17:39 AM
Why do I sense a discrimanatory attitude against mixing facial hair and cadet leaders?

I had a nice beard going on not too long ago.  I almost considered putting CAP on the backburner for a while and enjoying my facial hair.  Since I chose to get back involved, I'm of the belief that you follow the standards of those under you or those that look up to you.  I'm not sure about the Sea Cadets, but every other miltary-style cadet program that I'm aware of requires their "adult leaders of cadets" to conform to the same standards their cadets abide by.  They have to be clean shaven.  I have to be clean shaven.  If I'm not working with the cadets then it's a different issue entirely, but if I'm going to claim to be able to lead them then I at least need to meet their standard, if not exceed it.  That's just a training environment for you.  Step out of the training environment, and it's whatever ya got in your closet.

If it's good enough for JROTC, NJROTC, MCJROTC, CGJROTC, AFJROTC, ACA, and the Young Marines, it can't be that bad of an idea for CAP.
Lt Col, CAP

Guardrail

#20
Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 16, 2007, 01:31:39 AMIf it's good enough for JROTC, NJROTC, MCJROTC, CGJROTC, AFJROTC, ACA, and the Young Marines, it can't be that bad of an idea for CAP.

<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm824YYUS%2526i%253D4%252F4%255F1%255F9%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Great point!  However, I don't think there's a Coast Guard JROTC.

Tags - MIKE

Pace

#21
Quote from: Guardrail on January 16, 2007, 02:38:05 AM
Great point!  However, I don't think there's a Coast Guard JROTC.
There are a few CGJROTC units out there, but not many.

EDIT: The MAST Academy in Miami, FL has a CGJROTC unit.  Their annual curriculum guide has it on page 51 and 52 here. [Warning: large pdf document.  It's easier to save it on your computer first.]
Lt Col, CAP

Pumbaa

Funny... Right now I am a little bit over weight.. Most people cannot tell since I carry most of the weight in my upper body (chest).  Since I am over weight I figured.. well I cannot wear my AF or BDU's, why not just wear the Senior Greys?  Personally I hate the golf shirt.. tacky for meetings..

Now should I drop the 10 lbs, I will then shave my goatee and then I can go BDU, Blues..

Meanwhile I was looking at the corporate...  Blue af pants, Aviator shirt, blue tie, blue eppliets(sp).. I actually like the way that looks.  I don't like the grey boards on the blue, just visually is ugly to me... hmmmm.. only have to go by grooming on the crporate.

but I digress...

How many seniors are wearing the blues and/ or BDUs and they should NOT be?  I came across a photo on a CAP blogging site of a man at least 50 lbs overweight AND a FULL beard and mustache wearing CAP BDU's perhaps others here have seen this photo?!!!!  Now Being that I cannot say too much on the next one, for fear of revealing someone on the net.. Let's just say that I recently witenssed a HIGHER rank Senior officer in blues, not only were they sorta grungy, but he was also overweight by 30+ lbs... his mustache also was not reg.

Interesting.. ;)

Pace

Quote from: 2nd LT Fairchild on January 16, 2007, 02:47:29 AM
Let's just say that I recently witenssed a HIGHER rank Senior officer in blues, not only were they sorta grungy, but he was also overweight by 30+ lbs... his mustache also was not reg.
Was the braid on his sleeve silver?
Lt Col, CAP

Guardrail

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 16, 2007, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 16, 2007, 02:38:05 AM
Great point!  However, I don't think there's a Coast Guard JROTC.
There are a few CGJROTC units out there, but not many.

EDIT: The MAST Academy in Miami, FL has a CGJROTC unit.  Their annual curriculum guide has it on page 51 and 52 here. [Warning: large pdf document.  It's easier to save it on your computer first.]

Ok, sir.  I learn something new every day.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 16, 2007, 02:50:22 AM
Quote from: 2nd LT Fairchild on January 16, 2007, 02:47:29 AM
Let's just say that I recently witenssed a HIGHER rank Senior officer in blues, not only were they sorta grungy, but he was also overweight by 30+ lbs... his mustache also was not reg.
Was the braid on his sleeve silver?

Let's face it, there'll be some out there who will stuff themselves into a two-sizes-too-small AF service dress uniform and swear up and down they're within weight regs. And some field-grade officers who can't count the proper number of 'farts and darts' on the bus driver cap (four for Maj-Col, six for generals).
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

RiverAux

I think it is intersting that the board apparently believes it is more important for adult leaders of cadets to wear the AF-style uniforms when compared to the poll on general adult uniform choices which indicated strong support for the existing mix of multiple uniforms styles and types. 

Its not too surprising though.  After all, cadets don't have the choice of wearing CAP or civilian uniforms, so why should the adults directly in charge of them.  Having them wear AF-style uniforms well would definetely help set a good example. 

SAR-EMT1

If it helps enliven the discussion: every senior at my unit wears the AF blues or the BDUs ..however all are all prior service, and one is a retired Command E-9
(I was medical'd out of college/ ROTC so I guess I'm the exception)  >:(
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

SAR-EMT1

And thats not just those dealing with the midgets, thats all of us.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student