Short Stacking Cadet Achievement Ribbons

[arajca]

The removal of Phase 1 & 2 ribbons after the Mitchell has been proposed by the National CAC at least twice and the National Board turned it down twice. The original cadet training ribbons were the red,white and blue training plus Cadet COP. Plus there were very few activity ribbons a cadet, or senior member for that matter could earn. During the 1950's the number of ribbons that could be earned increased and in the mid 60's skyrocketed. So any attempt to reduce the number of ribbons a cadet can earn or wear, is doomed to failure as long as National requires the large number.

The NCAC proposed the MANDATORY removal of the Phase I & II ribbons. Prior to that, it had been the individual cadet's option. As I read it, the NB decided to make sure the NCAC knew how the NB felt about cadet ribbons when they revised CAPM 39-1 last time.

DNall, a proposal for a sub-CC commandation is making it's way through the COWG hierarchy, backed by the COWG/CV.

As an aside, I sent an idea for a Honorable Military Service award to CAPHistorian for comments. I'll be submitting it through the proper channels.

[DNall]

DNall, a proposal for a sub-CC commandation is making it's way through the COWG hierarchy, backed by the COWG/CV.

As an aside, I sent an idea for a Honorable Military Service award to CAPHistorian for comments. I'll be submitting it through the proper channels.

Good hope they follow the example as they have with each of the other service ribbons & call it CAP achievement medal. It'd be a nice tool. Now if they clean up the process for the rest of those decs we'd be all set.

"honorable military service?" What's that about? They'd have at least one military decoration, and I don't believe you are allowed in CAP with other than honorable. As it is you have the ability to wear mil decs, I'd like to make it mandatory that you wear at least one (or a mil badge) w/ service dress, but thats just me. Only other use I can think of for it is on the alternative white/blues & corporate service coat, all of which I oppose cause they look like a mil uniform but are supposed to be corporate-STYLE as in business suit w/ a lapel pin.

[SarDragon]

[stuff redacted] As an aside, I sent an idea for a Honorable Military Service award to CAPHistorian for comments. I'll be submitting it through the proper channels.

I like it. As a veteran who is not permitted to wear AF-style uniforms, it would allow me to display my "veteran-ness".

[arajca]

"honorable military service?" What's that about? They'd have at least one military decoration, and I don't believe you are allowed in CAP with other than honorable. As it is you have the ability to wear mil decs, I'd like to make it mandatory that you wear at least one (or a mil badge) w/ service dress, but thats just me. Only other use I can think of for it is on the alternative white/blues & corporate service coat, all of which I oppose cause they look like a mil uniform but are supposed to be corporate-STYLE as in business suit w/ a lapel pin.

A veteran can join CAP with a discharge other than honorable if the region/cc grant a waiver.

I know some vets who do not wear the AF uniform for different reasons, but will wear the corporates. I had initially brought it up for the corporates (blue or grey), but figured why not get the AF to allow it on the AF-style uniform.

As for the corporates supposing to look like a business suit, the AF uniform is a business suit now. It is hard to get a uniform looking more like a business suit than the AF servie dress.

We'll have to disagree on the benefit/cost of a CAP military styled uniform.

[BillB]

Last time I looked anyone with an other than Dishonorable military discharge could join. A General Discharge is often given in place of a Medical Discharge, or for service less than two years. And I don't think it requires a Wing or Region Commanders approval.

[arajca]

Last time I looked anyone with an other than Dishonorable military discharge could join. A General Discharge is often given in place of a Medical Discharge, or for service less than two years. And I don't think it requires a Wing or Region Commanders approval.

Ref CAPR 39-2, Sect 3-2, para d.

d. Suitability. Subject to being waived by the Executive Director or National Commander, any one of the following may be the basis for rejection of membership.
1) Conviction of a felony by any court of record whether federal, state or military.
2) A pattern of arrests and/or convictions including but not limited to sex offenses, child abuse, DUIs, dishonesty and violence.
3) Discharge from the armed services under other than honorable conditions.

My mistake, region/cc's can't grant that waiver, the CAP/CC or Exec Dir can.

[DNall]

No waiver should ever be granted for OTH or dishonorable discharges. Not unless we want to take people with felony convictions also.

There was some talk before about a CAP service ribbon (red service or something) that we should get auth for AF wear. However, the argument was that service to CAP gets you a volunteer service medal. Also that every other org (boy scouts) will then wnat their own ribbon & despite our formal affiliation w/ & for the AF, we don't rate such a thing - AFA doesn't get such a ribbon.

I see the point abuot wear on corp-style unis. However, I think it's allowed by mil regs (mot CAP) to wear mil decs on these, just like you see some vets wear their ribbons on particular civiliain cloths. It's just not auth by CAP & that's in deference to AF, but I think they'd like to get them authorized in the long run. You get this thru & it cuts the legs out from under that effort.

By the way, I don't think the NB has any business telling NCAC what ribbons cadets should or should not wear. I think NB needs to step down off their no real power high horse & let practical ideas fly & BoG run the show as the law says.

[Joe Baker]

Good idea!

I'm all for it!

[arajca]

By the way, I don't think the NB has any business telling NCAC what ribbons cadets should or should not wear. I think NB needs to step down off their no real power high horse & let practical ideas fly & BoG run the show as the law says.

The job of the NB at this time is to set policy. The NB has every right and responsibilty to establish ribbon wear policy. While we may want this to change, it hasn't yet.

Personally, I think the old way - some, all, or none - was best. It left the decision up to the member. WIWAC, I would occasionally short stack when a ribbon or two became unfit for wear and I was waiting to get a replacement from the Bookstore. My CC wanted all cadet officers to wear all their ribbons (CAP & JROTC) on their service coats. With the All or None option now, if a ribbon became unfit for wear, I'd have to take the whole rack off.

[Jolt]

I have an idea.

Being that as cadets go though the ranks their earn one ribbon for each achievement up to the Mitchell and four thereafter. 

Would it not be a good idea to allow cadets to wear their highest earned achievement  ribbon, instead of all earned achievement ribbons.
[In my case 1 instead of 9]

[Cadets do this anyway when they go Senior Member]

[at one time this was allowed with certain uniforms, but was changed with the new CAPM 39-1].

I have a problem with wearing all of my ribbons in the class 'B' uniforms, I have 18 going on 19.  [I also have pre-solo wings and a GTM badge]. 

In my class 'B's all of it comes up above my collarbone, almost to my epaulet [I have a size 16 shirt].

It makes for a rather large and gaudy display.  Not to mention uncomfortable, especially when driving.

I have took to wearing my ribbons in class 'A's only, but I would like to someday wear it in class 'B's again to.

Any way around this?

Topic title spelling - MIKE

Did you ever try wearing just the badges or just the ribbons?  I had to wear just my ground team and pre-solo for a while because I didn't want to order my NCSA ribbon when I knew the Earhart ribbon was only a few months away anyway.  That way you don't have to have the ribbons fill up your chest and pin the badges to the back of your shirt.

[DNall]

By the way, I don't think the NB has any business telling NCAC what ribbons cadets should or should not wear. I think NB needs to step down off their no real power high horse & let practical ideas fly & BoG run the show as the law says.

The job of the NB at this time is to set policy. The NB has every right and responsibilty to establish ribbon wear policy. While we may want this to change, it hasn't yet.

Actually, the BoG is the ruling body of CAP. The defer to NB, not so much NEC, in matters of what the members want. Obviously NCAC is a better judge of what cadets want & what's best for teh cadet program than an out of touch NB. That's the way it is right now. The BoG can do whatever they want & it really doesn't matter what teh NB says. Needs to be updated though.

What I'd want to change it to is simply to remove the pretense & dissolve the NB &  NEC. The Wg CCs can still meet as an advisory council & elect their own internal executive officers to advocate those positions to the chain of command, but otherwise there is no need of an oversight body judged by another oversight body. It should be a military-style linear chain from C/Amn to Nat/CC, & that chain should answer to, be selected by, & serv at the pleasure of the independently appointed BoG.

Point being ribbon wear policy should be optional, in line w/ AF, or determined by those most capable of making that interpretation (in this case NCAC).

[Joe Baker]

I have an idea.

Being that as cadets go though the ranks their earn one ribbon for each achievement up to the Mitchell and four thereafter. 

Would it not be a good idea to allow cadets to wear their highest earned achievement  ribbon, instead of all earned achievement ribbons.
[In my case 1 instead of 9]

[Cadets do this anyway when they go Senior Member]

[at one time this was allowed with certain uniforms, but was changed with the new CAPM 39-1].

I have a problem with wearing all of my ribbons in the class 'B' uniforms, I have 18 going on 19.  [I also have pre-solo wings and a GTM badge]. 

In my class 'B's all of it comes up above my collarbone, almost to my epaulet [I have a size 16 shirt].

It makes for a rather large and gaudy display.  Not to mention uncomfortable, especially when driving.

I have took to wearing my ribbons in class 'A's only, but I would like to someday wear it in class 'B's again to.

Any way around this?

Topic title spelling - MIKE

Did you ever try wearing just the badges or just the ribbons?  I had to wear just my ground team and pre-solo for a while because I didn't want to order my NCSA ribbon when I knew the Earhart ribbon was only a few months away anyway.  That way you don't have to have the ribbons fill up your chest and pin the badges to the back of your shirt.

Yes, that is what I do on a regular basis.

[BillB]

That's what the National CAC recommended. Once the Mitchell is earned, only milestone, activity, and award ribbons would be worn. So a Mitchell cadet would wear Currey (not actually a milestone, but most people consider it one), Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Encampment, service and activity ribbons.

[Joe Baker]

Hmmm, the CAC has a good point [gasp].

[arajca]

That's what the National CAC recommended. Once the Mitchell is earned, only milestone, activity, and award ribbons would be worn. So a Mitchell cadet would wear Currey (not actually a milestone, but most people consider it one), Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Encampment, service and activity ribbons.

Close, but not quite. Here is what the NCAC proposed:

Recommend the National Board approve the following addition to CAPM 39-1, CAP
Uniform Manual, Paragraph 1, Chapter 4. "While in Phases 1 and 2 cadets may wear
all their achievement and milestone ribbons. Cadets in Phases 3 and 4 may not wear
their achievement ribbons and are restricted to wearing only their highest milestone
award but may continue to wear all other ribbons."

So a cadet after earning his Mitchell would only wear the Mitchell, service, activity, and awards. No Curry. No Wright Brothers. No achievement ribbons.

The full minutes are available here. Go to Page 24 for the complete proposal, page 27 for the Committee recommendation, and page 28 for the voting results.

[MIKE]

Yeah... It basicly mirrors what we can do as seniors.

[DNall]

And at Earheart would take off Mitchell. I don't like that so much. I think the proposal here is better. At mitchell, it goes to just milestones (and other ribbons), the enlisted achievements drop off. I'm sure NCAC would go along with that. The problem in the proposal is jsutifying the change to NB who doesn't get that these cadet officers feel too many ribbons detract from their credibity.

[arajca]

And at Earheart would take off Mitchell. I don't like that so much. I think the proposal here is better. At mitchell, it goes to just milestones (and other ribbons), the enlisted achievements drop off.

Which used to ba common practice among many cadet officers. Until the NCAC wanted to force their personal preference on all cadets.

[Guardrail]

And at Earheart would take off Mitchell. I don't like that so much. I think the proposal here is better. At mitchell, it goes to just milestones (and other ribbons), the enlisted achievements drop off.

CAP used to do that.  That's what I eventually did when I was a cadet officer (which was long after the CAP reg stating all achievement ribbons come off after the Mitchell is attained).  

BTW, when did NCAC decide all ribbons must be worn by cadets on all uniforms?

[DNall]

And at Earheart would take off Mitchell. I don't like that so much. I think the proposal here is better. At mitchell, it goes to just milestones (and other ribbons), the enlisted achievements drop off.

Which used to ba common practice among many cadet officers. Until the NCAC wanted to force their personal preference on all cadets.

Which I understand. In the military a lot of things like that are done by common practice & enforced by the culture, but in CAP you're geographically isolated from everyone & rarely in a group big enough to gain synergy & build cross-cutting cultural norms... In other words CAP regs on everything, but especially uniforms, should go well beyond the detail level in mil regs to explain in minute detail exactly what you want with very little options & do it as if speaking to a martian whose got nothing more than your words to go on (pics are fine but don't use them as a crutch). And for God's sake keep the thing up to date. It's an oline reg already.